Was having this discussion with my dad today. He's killed every trophy in North America, including some monster white tail. He's of the boat that a 3.5 year old 8 will always be an 8. I am not so sure either way. Pictured is an 8 I have been watching this season. See him every day I hunt.

I know there are several schools of thought. Some think culling doesn't work and others have a similar philosophy as my dad. Kill spikes or freak genetics? We are on a new lease and are coming up with a management plan. We got access to this place last minute, so the 4 of us on haven't really come up with a plan yet.

What are y'all's plans for management deer? As of now we have the rule that each of us can kill what the county allows. Gonzalez, so it's one buck, one cull and 2 doe.

A mature deer with small antlers is a cull in my book but a management plan includes taking more does than bucks in most instances.

3+ yr olds with no redeeming qualities (mass, width, tine length). 2.5 with no brow tines.

Don't look at the Holden pasture bucks!

Seems like we agree. I am skeptical of culling.

I do think they exist but are much rarer than people think.

I saw a spike this weekend running with two other yearlings and he was half their size. Maybe. I will never believe in the wild that he will be the same overall size as his peers. No way.

A few years ago I shot a basket racket 21 point four year old that clearly had something wrong with him. He spent years just wandering around the pasture like a doe. Never chased. Even hung out with the doe during the rut. He was a cull. So was the buck the year before that had broken his leg at some point. It had successfully healed but he walked with a huge limp. He also had a layer of fat on him since he couldn't run. Cull.

But they are not nearly as common as people think.

Then there is culling, a verb, which is just thinning.

I also used to believe a lot more in culling but I now believe, "The science has changed" so to speak.

Someone here on the OB once said something akin to, "you can't shoot your way into good genetics", or something like that. I feel thats probably accurate.

I vote to keep it fun.

We almost always replace spots with someone who wants to take their kids hunting and everyone there now is in that category.

Therefore, just about any deer is a trophy to a kid, especially their first.

Also, everything a mile or two in every direction from our property is free range.

Our group doesn't get butt hurt when someone takes a deer they are excited about.

We only take one deer per paying member until the group is satisfied that it is late enough and the herd is strong enough that we take a second.

We try to talk every week about what we're seeing so we factor that into what each individually gets excited about.

The longest members of our group have been hunting this property together for 15-18 years.

We're not overrun with doe so we tend to shoot few doe so they can produce more future bucks

Rifle season is roughly 2.5 months long ... until the last month, we typically only want to shoot a mature buck 4.5yrs or more. Again, we're talking about what really needs to be taken out and what needs to stay another year.

Once we get to the last month, we start hunting the bucks we've looked at and collectively agreed would be a good cull for our property. Those last three words are different for every place, obviously.

So finally answering the OP's, spikes and no brow tines at 2.5yrs and most 4.5yr 8 point bucks will be considered a cull for our place.

We try to let deer get older, but if it is a nice buck and my kid is excited about, I am not going to hesitate to let them take it.

There is more joy seeing my kids excited when they see their buck than me shooting a big trophy.

I have come to accept that I won't shoot another trophy for a long time. With 2 boys hunting, they will do most of the shooting. Heck, I don't even shoot does anymore. The jury is still out if my daughter will be a hunter or not.

But to decide a cull all depends on where you hunt. If you feed heavy protein, if it is a dry year etc.

This spring was nice and we substituted some protein in the first time. Bucks are bigger this year. We can see the mature ones and try to take them before younger if possible.

JeremiahJohnson said:

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I'm "Culling" him

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That is a great "cull" in my opinion if there ever was one. A mature 5 point.

One ranch's cull is another's trophy. It's all subjective generally

agsalaska said:

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AgDad121619 said:

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I'm sure I'll get skewered for this opinion but deer hunting should be fun. If you think that is good deer - take him whether you want to call it cull or good buck. You might be not even have that lease next year if someone makes a better bid. Too much emphasis on "trophy" deer by a lot of folks. My son gets to hunt a friends lease that most folks trophy's die of age because no deer ever meets the standard.

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Unfortunately I only have one blue star to give.

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100%.

I'd love to have the chance to take that guy down. Even more for both of my boys.

slammerag said:

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3+ yr olds with no redeeming qualities (mass, width, tine length). 2.5 with no brow tines.

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I think that mentality is a lot of what's wrong with hunting in this state today. That's a handsome, symmetrical buck. He's not a monster but he's clearly a healthy, natural deer.

You are correct. "Cull bucks" for the most part are just a way for us to justify shooting more deer.

I'm honestly surprised by the responses overwhelmingly towards culling either does work or isn't worth it. I figured there would be some opposition like the other threads. Is this the first time the OB agrees?

That would be a hell of a good deer on my place. But we don't have south Texas or north Texas genetics and we probably average 120's on a good buck with the very rare buck that will get high 130's to 140's. I've heard rumors of some 150's walking around but have my doubts.

I'm currently chasing a whale of a buck (for my area) that is the biggest buck I have ever seen in person down here. That's the fun part for me right now - the chase, getting out in the blind and hoping luck and skill may be in my favor. Not sure I'll let my daughter shoot him if he shows up when she is with me, because she'll be ruined if that's her first buck.

As far as culls - they exist. I shot one a few years back. Older 10 point that barely made 13" and his longest tine off the main beams may have been 4". He just didn't have anything up top, and he was probably only 6.5 or so years old. MAYBE 7.5. But overall, culls are pretty rare in the grand scheme of things outside of the arbitrary metrics each place establishes based on how they manage.

You aren't shooting yourself out of bad genetics. Cull for numbers, just like with shooting does.

TarponChaser said:

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slammerag said:

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3+ yr olds with no redeeming qualities (mass, width, tine length). 2.5 with no brow tines.

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I think that mentality is a lot of what's wrong with hunting in this state today. That's a handsome, symmetrical buck. He's not a monster but he's clearly a healthy, natural deer.

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I think your missing my intent. Assuming we have X deer we have to kill, I will always shoot the deer that has 4" tines vs the deer that has 8" tines assuming they are similar age. No brow tines and 2.5+ is automatic as no/short brow tines is a trait that will proliferate.

Short tined deer would be "kill on sight". Long tined deer is "let live". Whether it makes any difference on future genetics, is debatable, but can't hurt. Brow tine length, g2 kickers and split g2's seem to be traits that will show some consistency in the herd either in a good way or bad way.

Here are a few examples from our ranch - the old 7 point weighed 225#

Interesting discussion.

We are highly managed. have to shoot 25 bucks per year. too many mouths to feed if we let everything go till 6.5 or older. or said another way - i'd like to have a larger pipeline of younger bucks to select from to get to some true trophies at 6.5 or older.

we shoot for 4.5. if you look at a bucks antler characteristics there are antler Mass, number of Points, the Spread, beam length, and the tine length. if they don't have at least 2-3 of those - then likely we will shoot. that sounds awfully scientific but it really isn't - you get a sense just by looking at a deer.

i don't ascribe fully to some of the present day arguments about letting culls go because you don't know what they are throwing off. i haven't seen a 125" buck in a breeder pen.

couple of examples. we had a 3.5 year old 8 point on the list last year - he had about 3" bases, short tines, no spread. none of the 5. he slipped through and was a 4.5 year old, 200lb 10 point with none of the 5. he might has scored 110".

second example is a decent looking 3.5 year old 8 pointer that had an extra point at one of his bases. probably about 140" deer. he's a 14 point 4.5 year old that probably goes well into the 160s.

third example is a beautiful 2.5 year old 8 point. looked about the same at 5.5.

crazy stuff but fun.

TarponChaser said:

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Furlock Bones said:

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You are correct. "Cull bucks" for the most part are just a way for us to justify shooting more deer.

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I'd argue it's more of a crutch or an excuse some use to justify shooting a deer that they think won't stack up to the deer their buddy took on the place feeding $10,000 in protein a year.

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Maybe. Each person looks at things differently. I'm not sure that thought is any less insecure as yours. It's hypocritical at best to talk crap about trophy hunting when describing someone meat hunting which is really what culling is. It's the exact opposite of what you are saying. Those same "trophy hunters" may only kill does and culls most of their lives.

I'm as against bringing in deer with tags and breeding as anyone after seeing behind the curtain of Oz on a property that did for a decade.

In the end there's things that ultimately can't be completely controlled, but managed to the advantage of the property, the deer, and the hunters.

It all comes down to the availability of water, food, and cover and the ability to utilize good quantities of all to an older age. What culling does is remove mouths from the food and water chain and allow "better genetics" to maximize their potential. As was mentioned above, there's 2 deer to genetics so in the end it's all about keeping ratios (doe to buck as and mouths to acres) down to allow that to happen. Whether a trophy hunter understands it or not, it ultimately gets them to the same result.

agsalaska said:

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AgDad121619 said:

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I'm sure I'll get skewered for this opinion but deer hunting should be fun. If you think that is good deer - take him whether you want to call it cull or good buck. You might be not even have that lease next year if someone makes a better bid. Too much emphasis on "trophy" deer by a lot of folks. My son gets to hunt a friends lease that most folks trophy's die of age because no deer ever meets the standard.

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Unfortunately I only have one blue star to give.

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You may get skewered from others, but not me.

My personally belief is like most things in life it has to be a balance. Too much fun shooting a place out and there's no deer to hunt. Too much letting things die of old age and it's not really a deer lease or hunting, but a zoo.

The best place I was ever on took management seriously, but did so in a way that was fairly moderate. Water, food sources, cover, and managing mouths. Bucks needed to be mature (5.5 or older). Log every score and age with photos. Everyone was expected to take all their does and cull bucks if you wanted a trophy the next year. It was fine to bring family to do so as long as it was coordinated with other hunters.

In the end it was a good balance of having the opportunity to shoot a B&C every year and having a freezer full of venison, turkey, ducks, geese, quail, and pigs. And most importantly being able to have fun and share the experience with family.

nobody has mentioned it yet that I've seen, but managing and culling deer on a high fence place is doable (assuming lower than 1000 acres), low fence not so much. Would anyone argue otherwise?

I think culling is shooting the mature smaller antlered deer so the larger antlered deer have the nutrients to grow to their full potential. Also keeping the buck to doe ratios closer.

I think genetically it will be near impossible to control that on a low fence ranch.

My point is that one man's "cull" is another man's "trophy" and shouldn't feel the need to justify shooting a buck like that in the OP unless you're on a highly managed place and that deer is agreed to be on the "walk" list vs. the "kill" list for some reason.

If you're only after a larger deer and are willing to let him walk on the chance that something bigger comes along they do so and there's no need to justify it to anybody else.

And if you see him as worth taking then do so, subject to any lease rules etc, and don't worry about justifying it to anybody else.

I can understand the goal of removing animals from the herd to have more resources for deer that likely have the chance to be bigger that's fine too. But like others have said, unless you're in a very tightly controlled environment it's unlikely you'll be able to shoot your way to better genetics.

If you only want to bow hunt or whatever, do it. If you want to use a crossbow, that's fine too. Same with rifle hunting. Just be ethical about it and within the confines of the relevant laws.

we are on over 4,000 acres of which we've got about 2 miles of low fence. those two miles have about 1000 acres of grass, as well as some oil field stuff (across the fence) that helps to create a pretty good barrier. we have good food, good water, and good cover.

we did have another section of low fence that was brushy on both sides - but the folks across the fence thought it would be good to have 4 blinds and feeders along a 3/4 mile stretch of common fence vs. our one blind. it's no longer a low fence.

we can manage the culling process but it isn't easy - basically identifying about 20 or so inferior deer per year.

The hardest part for managing a herd is getting trophies to age - we shoot for 7.5, but lost two 150" 6.5 year olds last year to neighbors we passed.

13k acres and still neighbors can be a pain

Aggie_2463 said:

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The hardest part for managing a herd is getting trophies to age - we shoot for 7.5, but lost two 150" 6.5 year olds last year to neighbors we passed.

13k acres and still neighbors can be a pain

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Out of curiosity, how do you age 6.5 vs 7.5? At some point they look the same.