Does anyone have any thoughts on what goes too far? I recently looked at a tract of land that had a limit on the number of animal units per acre in addition to a laundry list of other things. Is something like that normal, or is this an over-reaching seller?
Rural Land Restrictions - What goes too far?
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Last: 8 mo ago by Burdizzo
Interested to know what is considered rural land in this situation. Outside of city limits in a rural development or acreage out in the country?
This. Depends a lot on the situation.Canyon99 said:
Interested to know what is considered rural land in this situation. Outside of city limits in a rural development or acreage out in the country?
Please be more specific.
Are you buying into a family ranch? How many acres? Are you in Texas?
Are you buying into a family ranch? How many acres? Are you in Texas?
can you provide those restrictions and who is putting those restrictions on the land?
county, HOA, a city?
county, HOA, a city?
Could just be a deed restriction put in place by the current seller or someone that predates the current seller.BQ_90 said:
can you provide those restrictions and who is putting those restrictions on the land?
county, HOA, a city?
restrictions that "run with the land" can suck but can also be well-intentioned. they're filed with the county court and could be enforced on your heirs or their heirs decades from now.. or even result in conflicts requiring mediation if interpretations are different and language and definitions are not clear.
the seller wanting themselves and the buyers to both sign off on restrictions that include no commercial poultry or pork operations (odor pollution), no industrial commercial operations, no commercial shooting ranges or race tracks, etc. (noise pollution) could be protections for both to keep the land peaceful and quiet for generations.
perhaps in this case, they want the buyers to only have enough animal units per acre as required for tax exemption to keep it quiet around there, but that seems petty. no or fewer restriction is probably better for both buyer and seller in the long run and immediately to get a deal done, but if the seller is going to be your neighbor, you better make sure they are nice and reasonable and if you really love this land and still want to buy it, make sure they sign and file the same restrictions on their land as they're having you sign on yours. have an attorney who works on deals like this review or redraft the restrictions if necessary.
the seller wanting themselves and the buyers to both sign off on restrictions that include no commercial poultry or pork operations (odor pollution), no industrial commercial operations, no commercial shooting ranges or race tracks, etc. (noise pollution) could be protections for both to keep the land peaceful and quiet for generations.
perhaps in this case, they want the buyers to only have enough animal units per acre as required for tax exemption to keep it quiet around there, but that seems petty. no or fewer restriction is probably better for both buyer and seller in the long run and immediately to get a deal done, but if the seller is going to be your neighbor, you better make sure they are nice and reasonable and if you really love this land and still want to buy it, make sure they sign and file the same restrictions on their land as they're having you sign on yours. have an attorney who works on deals like this review or redraft the restrictions if necessary.
Sorry, should have been more specific. This is an 80 acre piece of land in the country in Texas - not near any city or town. It is part of a larger family-owned property. I get some of the restrictions, because they are trying to protect their interests. There is much more in this list, but the ones that bother me are:
- Only structures - two single family residential homes and barns
- No RVs (I assume I can't even have a personal one stored except inside a barn)
- Livestock animal unit per acre limitations (maximum # cows per acre etc.)
- No subdividing (period)
yeah, pretty restrictive. they don't want buyer to build apartment complexes or RV parks next door.. or develop it into a low income neighborhood development
if you really love this land, i suggest you get a lawyer to help work on language that puts seller at ease with what you intend to do with the property and yet is not quite as restrictive for future generations.
for RVs- perhaps it can be something along the lines of no RV storage for over a year unless titled in buyer or buyer's dependents or heirs' names. or something like that... i'm obviously not a lawyer.
if you really love this land, i suggest you get a lawyer to help work on language that puts seller at ease with what you intend to do with the property and yet is not quite as restrictive for future generations.
for RVs- perhaps it can be something along the lines of no RV storage for over a year unless titled in buyer or buyer's dependents or heirs' names. or something like that... i'm obviously not a lawyer.
Seems reasonable to me.
All of those seem very reasonable
I'd want some clarity on number of non-home structures. Barns, chicken coop, etc.
I'd want some clarity on number of non-home structures. Barns, chicken coop, etc.
there should be no assumptions.Bonfire97 said:
- (I assume I can't even
if the restrictions run with the land, they will carry down for generations and there could be misinterpretations down the road between your grandkids and their grandkids.
if you think you might want your own personal RV that is not inside a barn, or might have friends and relatives and guests come visit with a camper or RV, have your agent get clarification with the listing agent or ask if you can have your attorney look over the language so there is no guessing or assumptions being made, even if you're pretty sure you know the intent of the restriction, you want to make sure everything is spelled out clearly. there are tactful ways of communicating your concerns without blowing the deal - they should understand if you want language changed to be more clear.
edit to add: you better make sure the restrictions on the land are reciprocal. if you need to sign off and file these on the land you're buying, sellers better file the same ones on their remaining acreage.
If I am buying anything undeveloped land, it will have no restrictions or I won't buy. When we look at ranches to purchase, restrictions are a no go. Same with minerals. No minerals, no deal. Too much good land out there to deal with that. I will not own a piece of land that I don't fully own. Minerals I can negotiate on depending on location but the price will be heavily reduced for us to be seriously interested. But this really depends on what YOU want. We also won't purchase something that is subdivided or under some management of any sort. Even our 20 acre farm we bought out of college had no restrictions and all minerals convey.
But again, you're buying it, not me, so anything can be reasonable if you're cool with it.
3 acres, sure, 80 acres, hell naw. Can you negotiate these out?
But again, you're buying it, not me, so anything can be reasonable if you're cool with it.
3 acres, sure, 80 acres, hell naw. Can you negotiate these out?
I am with you on both. I could deal with reasonable restrictions - like no mobile homes, no trash dumping, that sort of thing. But, what really irritated me with this property was the laundry list (there are way more than I listed above) and limiting how many cows I can run per acre? That's ridiculous.
Bonfire97 said:
I am with you on both. I could deal with reasonable restrictions - like no mobile homes, no trash dumping, that sort of thing. But, what really irritated me with this property was the laundry list (there are way more than I listed above) and limiting how many cows I can run per acre? That's ridiculous.
I get why they do it, especially if it's family land. I can see how dividing a bunch of land for other family members could lead to people feeling a bit entitled to do whatever they hell they want which could impact other parcels and family members depending on parcel size. It's not a bad idea, it's just not for me. So, I get why it's there, but no RV? That's weird. I guess I feel like if I'm paying full price and not getting a huge break, then I want to be able to build a giant pink middle fiddle finger with neon lights mounted on my RV in the pasture situated inside my pig pen that also serves as a chicken run. I mean, I wouldn't do that but I want to be able to if I wanna. Restrictions can only be enforced if someone is watching and that's what I don't like.
Now from my practical side….
I have a travel trailer in my yard but if i was forced to have it covered or in a building, that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. It would be good for the travel trailer.
Cattle per acre, I can put a f- ton more cattle on a place in Colorado County than I can in Uvalde county. So, if that limit is reasonable, maybe that's not a big deal.
Just go through each one and think about the spirit of the intent and whether it's really reasonable. Subdividing…I don't think that's a big deal. That's to prevent someone from turning a parcel into a 160 house development. To me, that's not a huge deal, I'd rather sell it all than hassle with that but you'll make way more money if you did. But you may be different. Maybe you have plans of developing in the future so you just have to figure out what's going to work for you.
Yeah, this is a good grass area and the limit was 1 "animal unit" per 3 acres, which is more than I would ever run because I don't like overgrazed pastures and I don't like buying hay. I guess it was just that this seemed a little over the top. Maybe I am making a mountain out of a mole hill. Most of the list was fairly reasonable, but pretty exhaustive. Here is all of it:
1.) Livestock limitation
2.) No subdividing
3.) Only 2 single family houses and barns
4.) No mobile homes
5.) No RVs
6.) No junk cars
7.) No trash dumping
8.) No commercial operations
1.) Livestock limitation
2.) No subdividing
3.) Only 2 single family houses and barns
4.) No mobile homes
5.) No RVs
6.) No junk cars
7.) No trash dumping
8.) No commercial operations
I'd consider seeking amended clarifying language at least on 1, 3, 5.
let the sellers know you're serious about moving forward and getting a deal done, but you don't want ambiguity or confusion in the future and these might be too restrictive even though you understand the intent and don't intend to violate those restrictions, you don't want those running with the land with the current language.
...and for #2 - are they signing off on reciprocal restrictions on their remaining property? They are dividing their land now to sell to you- can you not even decades from now divide a piece for your own family member?
let the sellers know you're serious about moving forward and getting a deal done, but you don't want ambiguity or confusion in the future and these might be too restrictive even though you understand the intent and don't intend to violate those restrictions, you don't want those running with the land with the current language.
...and for #2 - are they signing off on reciprocal restrictions on their remaining property? They are dividing their land now to sell to you- can you not even decades from now divide a piece for your own family member?
The RV thing is to prevent a person buying it and setting a RV up on it only…. and end up living in the thing permanently. We did the same restrictions on a piece of rural property we sold off that was next to us. We also had some restrictions on how close to the property line permanent structures could be built.
We also named some restrictions specifically like, no hog farming, no subdivisions, no commercial shooting range etc.
The animal unit per acre is so that a goober doesn't buy it and put 50 cows, pigs, horses, donkeys etc on it and end up overgrazing it to a rock pile and then having all the soil wash off creating an erosion eyesore…. usually affecting all neighbors.
We had that stipulation on the same piece we sold as well.
Depends on where you are at in Texas if minerals will convey. If you're in a productive area they are probably already taken. If in non productive you might get all conveyed or a part.
We conveyed all that we owned but were in a non productive area.
The RV, and animal unit restriction and other restrictions didn't phase any prospective buyer we had…. in fact they appreciated it. Basically for us it was a take or leave it situation. We didn't have any issues selling it because of them. … but it was beautiful hill country land that everyone wants.
We also named some restrictions specifically like, no hog farming, no subdivisions, no commercial shooting range etc.
The animal unit per acre is so that a goober doesn't buy it and put 50 cows, pigs, horses, donkeys etc on it and end up overgrazing it to a rock pile and then having all the soil wash off creating an erosion eyesore…. usually affecting all neighbors.
We had that stipulation on the same piece we sold as well.
Depends on where you are at in Texas if minerals will convey. If you're in a productive area they are probably already taken. If in non productive you might get all conveyed or a part.
We conveyed all that we owned but were in a non productive area.
The RV, and animal unit restriction and other restrictions didn't phase any prospective buyer we had…. in fact they appreciated it. Basically for us it was a take or leave it situation. We didn't have any issues selling it because of them. … but it was beautiful hill country land that everyone wants.
I would ask that the restrictions also apply to seller's adjacent land (with buyer as declarant), and that the restrictions have a sunset date in the distant future.
The seller/landowner has a right to putting any restrictions he wants on the land. Especially if he is going to own land next to it they he may leave to his heirs someday.
If you don't agree with it….. mark it off your list and move on.
If you don't agree with it….. mark it off your list and move on.
No RV likely intends to prevent it from being a permanent residence, vs storage of one.
So is this a large ranch being parceled out?
I have friends who bought 300 acres south of Ozona. It's a big ranch that sold in 100 acre parcels after they hit oil on it and I guess the family didn't want to mess with running livestock and ranching after that. It has a POA similar to a HOA. They have similar restrictions ( no RV's set up in view of public roadway, can only clear a certain percentage of trees, no running a business from the property)
I have friends who bought 300 acres south of Ozona. It's a big ranch that sold in 100 acre parcels after they hit oil on it and I guess the family didn't want to mess with running livestock and ranching after that. It has a POA similar to a HOA. They have similar restrictions ( no RV's set up in view of public roadway, can only clear a certain percentage of trees, no running a business from the property)
Thank you for the great clarification here. Very enlightening.Quote:
The seller/landowner has a right to putting any restrictions he wants on the land. Especially if he is going to own land next to it they he may leave to his heirs someday.
If you don't agree with it….. mark it off your list and move on.
There is lots of land out there for sale. Rather than waisting your time and the sellers it is often best to just move on. It's been my experience in buying land or anything else that if you are having speed bumps and things you don't like come up…. and you are working too hard at buying it….with lots of obstacles…..perhaps the good Lord is looking out for you and it's not the place for you…. My dad taught me that a long time ago and his advice has saved me from bad decisions over the years.
ETA: Was not trying to be a smart ass if that's how you perceived it. Sorry.
ETA: Was not trying to be a smart ass if that's how you perceived it. Sorry.
Jason_Roofer said:
If I am buying anything undeveloped land, it will have no restrictions or I won't buy. When we look at ranches to purchase, restrictions are a no go. Same with minerals. No minerals, no deal. Too much good land out there to deal with that. I will not own a piece of land that I don't fully own. Minerals I can negotiate on depending on location but the price will be heavily reduced for us to be seriously interested. But this really depends on what YOU want. We also won't purchase something that is subdivided or under some management of any sort. Even our 20 acre farm we bought out of college had no restrictions and all minerals convey.
But again, you're buying it, not me, so anything can be reasonable if you're cool with it.
3 acres, sure, 80 acres, hell naw. Can you negotiate these out?
The chance that you're getting 100% of the minerals is increasingly rare. You can probably get 100% of the owner's interest, but you won't know exactly what that is until you hire a landman and have them run the title.
Back to the OP, these restrictions aren't that bad, and others have given good explanations as to why they are there. But I would reiterate that they need to be reciprocal, and that they expire on a certain date, or that a certain percentage of the owners that are governed by these restrictions can vote (majority, 2/3rds, 3/4ths, etc.) to have them removed.
There is a place out on Hwy 30 in Grimes county that had around 4 parcels of land, close to 300 ac each that could only be accessed by a common easement which was owned by the guy who split the land up. He has/had a stipulation that no alcohol or firearms could traverse the easement. One parcel changed hands a couple of times over the past 15 years and borders our place on the other side.
When the newest owners decided to sell, they had a difficult time getting a buyer with that stipulation. Their real estate agent for the sale asked for permission to create an easement across our land so they could sell it. Yeah, thanks but no thanks. We had no idea who would buy it.
In a week or so, we received a letter from the agent out of Montgomery, an Aggie, who completely lambasted us about refusing. Un-Texan, horrible persons for not supporting fellow Aggies, and a couple of more accusations. I called him up and asked him why he didn't just buy it to support his clients. Again, verbal blasting. I finally hung up.
When the newest owners decided to sell, they had a difficult time getting a buyer with that stipulation. Their real estate agent for the sale asked for permission to create an easement across our land so they could sell it. Yeah, thanks but no thanks. We had no idea who would buy it.
In a week or so, we received a letter from the agent out of Montgomery, an Aggie, who completely lambasted us about refusing. Un-Texan, horrible persons for not supporting fellow Aggies, and a couple of more accusations. I called him up and asked him why he didn't just buy it to support his clients. Again, verbal blasting. I finally hung up.
I would bristle at the restrictions on a property that size, even though I can see why the sellers want to impose them.
I take too simplistic of a view - you either want to sell it or you don't - and this is the seller wanting to have their cake and eat it too.. which is fine when they find an agreeable buyer; it just probably wouldn't be me. I subscribe to Gunny's 'they can do it if they want, and you/me/he can just keep looking' if we don't like it.
I take too simplistic of a view - you either want to sell it or you don't - and this is the seller wanting to have their cake and eat it too.. which is fine when they find an agreeable buyer; it just probably wouldn't be me. I subscribe to Gunny's 'they can do it if they want, and you/me/he can just keep looking' if we don't like it.
Thanks for all the replies yall. Gunny, I fully agree with you. If something doesn't flow well, it probably isn't meant to be.
I doubt the RV thing is about a travel rig, it's much more likely about living in it.
Yes sir. We searched and searched till we felt good about a place. Sometimes when you really want something bad enough you talk yourself into things that later you wish you hadn't. We bought one place by Llano that I just wanted bad. It had some nice water potential but other crazy restrictions. I bought it anyway….. I really messed up big time.
I truly pray that you find you your dream spot. Trust in God that he will guide you to it.
When it's the right place you will not only know it but you will feel it.
Good luck sir.
I truly pray that you find you your dream spot. Trust in God that he will guide you to it.
When it's the right place you will not only know it but you will feel it.
Good luck sir.
Nothing about that seems unreasonable, provided it's priced to reflect that it has no development potential.
Pardon my ignorance on real estate law, but if there is no property owner's association or warranty deed, how are these restrictions enforced?
Law suit.
Not sure about the prohibitions on sub dividing, but I think that's would come up in title searches for the potential buyers etc.
Not sure about the prohibitions on sub dividing, but I think that's would come up in title searches for the potential buyers etc.
Bradley.Kohr.II said:
Law suit.
Not sure about the prohibitions on sub dividing, but I think that's would come up in title searches for the potential buyers etc.
Doesn't the complainant have to have standing and prove damages?
Sounds like a deed restriction.
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