YouBet said:

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80085 said:

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YouBet said:

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So, I guess the Mavs were offered IM Pei City Hall site but turned it down. Watching Dallas implode in real-time is pretty incredible.

Stars, Mavs, AT&T, Neiman Marcus, Fifth Third Bank (Comerica). Dallas County losing population for the first time in decades.

Will be damn near impossible to recover from this.

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VV is Dallas, and AAC isnt downtown

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Ok?

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so unless the irving deal is true, mavs are not leaving the city,

80085 said:

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YouBet said:

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80085 said:

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YouBet said:

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So, I guess the Mavs were offered IM Pei City Hall site but turned it down. Watching Dallas implode in real-time is pretty incredible.

Stars, Mavs, AT&T, Neiman Marcus, Fifth Third Bank (Comerica). Dallas County losing population for the first time in decades.

Will be damn near impossible to recover from this.

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VV is Dallas, and AAC isnt downtown

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Ok?

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so unless the irving deal is true, mavs are not leaving the city,

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Fine. I was more referring to the core of Dallas. It's taken some major body blows these last few weeks. Hard to recover from that and they have no plan to address it.

YouBet said:

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80085 said:

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YouBet said:

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80085 said:

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YouBet said:

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So, I guess the Mavs were offered IM Pei City Hall site but turned it down. Watching Dallas implode in real-time is pretty incredible.

Stars, Mavs, AT&T, Neiman Marcus, Fifth Third Bank (Comerica). Dallas County losing population for the first time in decades.

Will be damn near impossible to recover from this.

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VV is Dallas, and AAC isnt downtown

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Ok?

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so unless the irving deal is true, mavs are not leaving the city,

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Fine. I was more referring to the core of Dallas. It's taken some major body blows these last few weeks. Hard to recover from that and they have no plan to address it.

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building a homeless center and WFH killed it. It'll need to sleep it off for a few decades like its done a few times already.

80085 said:

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YouBet said:

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80085 said:

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YouBet said:

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80085 said:

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YouBet said:

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So, I guess the Mavs were offered IM Pei City Hall site but turned it down. Watching Dallas implode in real-time is pretty incredible.

Stars, Mavs, AT&T, Neiman Marcus, Fifth Third Bank (Comerica). Dallas County losing population for the first time in decades.

Will be damn near impossible to recover from this.

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VV is Dallas, and AAC isnt downtown

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Ok?

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so unless the irving deal is true, mavs are not leaving the city,

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Fine. I was more referring to the core of Dallas. It's taken some major body blows these last few weeks. Hard to recover from that and they have no plan to address it.

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building a homeless center and WFH killed it. It'll need to sleep it off for a few decades like its done a few times already.

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Yeah, but downtown has always struggled. It's always been more of a one step forward two steps back kind of growth / improvement. And now this is 10 steps back.

MRB10 said:

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Some Dallas people get triggered when you attribute certain areas of Dallas to things not technically in that area.

It's stupid and comes off as extremely snobbish. I've found it's most common with people who grew up inside loop 12. Park cities, Lakewood, lake highlands, etc.

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Is it snobbish if it's correct? Maybe a little, but he's not wrong....

My wife grew up in Clear Lake and refers to anything north of 610 as downtown Houston.

Yep, no one cares about that!

PatAg said:

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Ag CPA said:

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I get the Stars wanting to move to Collin County because that is where much of their fanbase lives, but besides the real estate motives discussed above this makes no sense.

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Is that even true, where do you get that fact from

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That's absolutely true and a big reason why they moved it north.

YouBet said:

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So, I guess the Mavs were offered IM Pei City Hall site but turned it down. Watching Dallas implode in real-time is pretty incredible.

Stars, Mavs, AT&T, Neiman Marcus, Fifth Third Bank (Comerica). Dallas County losing population for the first time in decades.

Will be damn near impossible to recover from this.

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Nothing in downtown was remotely viable from a land standpoint. City hall has and had nothing to do with it. They do need to figure it out because the number of conventions that are pulling out is get out of hand.

The mismanagement of the city by the officials is tanking downtown and Dallas proper. And they're about to get dealt with due to their incompetence.

Editing to add that the narrative is pushing all of your points and it's BS. Goldman and Morgan Stanley are going to have more employees in Dallas than in New York. The announcement comes down that Goldman is moving to downtown and the media quickly points out 'no no no…that's uptown, not downtown'. Then the Mavs leave and suddenly 'they're pulling out of downtown'. It's all nonsense.

For what the Mavs ownership group has planned, they need the space and VV fits it. It's not going to Irving. It's VV. And it will end up being pretty freaking cool.

wangus12 said:

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Not without drastic changes in how the city does things, but that won't happen.

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We'll see how long the powers that be remain so…

Yes, it comes off as snobbish even if technically correct.

The vast majority of people living in the area answer "Dallas" when asked where they're from by people out of state. West of Southlake/Keller is when some transition to "Fort Worth" in my experience.

Someone responding with "well technically… you're not REALLY from Dallas" comes off as snobbish even if they're technically correct if the person lives in a burb.

investorAg83 said:

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YouBet said:

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So, I guess the Mavs were offered IM Pei City Hall site but turned it down. Watching Dallas implode in real-time is pretty incredible.

Stars, Mavs, AT&T, Neiman Marcus, Fifth Third Bank (Comerica). Dallas County losing population for the first time in decades.

Will be damn near impossible to recover from this.

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Nothing in downtown was remotely viable from a land standpoint. City hall has and had nothing to do with it. They do need to figure it out because the number of conventions that are pulling out is get out of hand.

The mismanagement of the city by the officials is tanking downtown and Dallas proper. And they're about to get dealt with due to their incompetence.

Editing to add that the narrative is pushing all of your points and it's BS. Goldman and Morgan Stanley are going to have more employees in Dallas than in New York. The announcement comes down that Goldman is moving to downtown and the media quickly points out 'no no no…that's uptown, not downtown'. Then the Mavs leave and suddenly 'they're pulling out of downtown'. It's all nonsense.

For what the Mavs ownership group has planned, they need the space and VV fits it. It's not going to Irving. It's VV. And it will end up being pretty freaking cool.

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Well, that's not what the DMN says based on article I read yesterday. Maybe they are lying and misconstruing what happened but they covered that the IM Pei site was offered to them however unrealistic or Hail Mary that was. I admittedly am a little behind the lead up to this as we don't live there anymore and I no longer follow the local happenings as obsessively.

Also, nothing I'm saying is b.s. Downtown, the core, is in trouble. If I'm not mistaken Goldman and MS are building in Uptown which is not Downtown. Uptown seems to be doing just fine. It's the CBD / Downtown that is in trouble. I guess I should have been more explicit, but I assumed that was obvious especially if you live there.

No it is not and it's nothing but Dallas officials claiming it is. Mayor Johnson finally comes out from under his rock to claim that 'the wolves are to the north'. That is complete BS…the wolves are the other major metro areas making plays for these massive corporate moves. Everyone else in the DFW area works together with the exception of Dallas.

You're also making my point…you can't claim that Goldman isn't downtown and then turn right around and claim that the Mavs are leaving downtown. That doesn't match up.

Dallas had FOREVER to come up with a proposal. The Mavs were very clear that the timetable is what it is; Dallas kept dicking around and never got anything together…maybe due to the fact that they knew they had nothing that would work for what the Mavs need. But it's not like this just came out of nowhere. This has been brewing and conversations started when Cynt was in charge. Welts was specifically brought in because he's been able to oversee projects for other teams…he knows how much time is needed to complete the vision and more importantly, he let Dallas know.

This is all on Dallas leadership. And again, they're in for a rude awakening soon.

investorAg83 said:

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No it is not and it's nothing but Dallas officials claiming it is. Mayor Johnson finally comes out from under his rock to claim that 'the wolves are to the north'. That is complete BS…the wolves are the other major metro areas making plays for these massive corporate moves. Everyone else in the DFW area works together with the exception of Dallas.

You're also making my point…you can't claim that Goldman isn't downtown and then turn right around and claim that the Mavs are leaving downtown. That doesn't match up.

Dallas had FOREVER to come up with a proposal. The Mavs were very clear that the timetable is what it is; Dallas kept dicking around and never got anything together…maybe due to the fact that they knew they had nothing that would work for what the Mavs need. But it's not like this just came out of nowhere. This has been brewing and conversations started when Cynt was in charge. Welts was specifically brought in because he's been able to oversee projects for other teams…he knows how much time is needed to complete the vision and more importantly, he let Dallas know.

This is all on Dallas leadership. And again, they're in for a rude awakening soon.

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Man, I'm not defending Dallas leadership. They f'ing suck. I lived there 25 years. Total clown show.

All I'm saying is that I read a DMN article that says they offered the Mavs the IM Pei site to build on and the Mavs declined because they didn't want to get in the middle of city hall politics. Do not blame them at all. It sounds like you are saying that didn't happen.

Downtown is on the ropes; the Mavs and Stars leaving AAC which is right across Woodall sure as hell doesn't help. Negative halo effect if you will.

YouBet said:

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investorAg83 said:

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No it is not and it's nothing but Dallas officials claiming it is. Mayor Johnson finally comes out from under his rock to claim that 'the wolves are to the north'. That is complete BS…the wolves are the other major metro areas making plays for these massive corporate moves. Everyone else in the DFW area works together with the exception of Dallas.

You're also making my point…you can't claim that Goldman isn't downtown and then turn right around and claim that the Mavs are leaving downtown. That doesn't match up.

Dallas had FOREVER to come up with a proposal. The Mavs were very clear that the timetable is what it is; Dallas kept dicking around and never got anything together…maybe due to the fact that they knew they had nothing that would work for what the Mavs need. But it's not like this just came out of nowhere. This has been brewing and conversations started when Cynt was in charge. Welts was specifically brought in because he's been able to oversee projects for other teams…he knows how much time is needed to complete the vision and more importantly, he let Dallas know.

This is all on Dallas leadership. And again, they're in for a rude awakening soon.

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Man, I'm not defending Dallas leadership. They f'ing suck. I lived there 25 years. Total clown show.

All I'm saying is that I read a DMN article that says they offered the Mavs the IM Pei site to build on and the Mavs declined because they didn't want to get in the middle of city hall politics. Do not blame them at all. It sounds like you are saying that didn't happen.

Downtown is on the ropes; the Mavs and Stars leaving AAC which is right across Woodall sure as hell doesn't help. Negative halo effect if you will.

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No. They did not. And there is a lot of misinformation being thrown around and the source is, you guessed it, Dallas officials. Tremendous amount of CYA taking place.

investorAg83 said:

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YouBet said:

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investorAg83 said:

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No it is not and it's nothing but Dallas officials claiming it is. Mayor Johnson finally comes out from under his rock to claim that 'the wolves are to the north'. That is complete BS…the wolves are the other major metro areas making plays for these massive corporate moves. Everyone else in the DFW area works together with the exception of Dallas.

You're also making my point…you can't claim that Goldman isn't downtown and then turn right around and claim that the Mavs are leaving downtown. That doesn't match up.

Dallas had FOREVER to come up with a proposal. The Mavs were very clear that the timetable is what it is; Dallas kept dicking around and never got anything together…maybe due to the fact that they knew they had nothing that would work for what the Mavs need. But it's not like this just came out of nowhere. This has been brewing and conversations started when Cynt was in charge. Welts was specifically brought in because he's been able to oversee projects for other teams…he knows how much time is needed to complete the vision and more importantly, he let Dallas know.

This is all on Dallas leadership. And again, they're in for a rude awakening soon.

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Man, I'm not defending Dallas leadership. They f'ing suck. I lived there 25 years. Total clown show.

All I'm saying is that I read a DMN article that says they offered the Mavs the IM Pei site to build on and the Mavs declined because they didn't want to get in the middle of city hall politics. Do not blame them at all. It sounds like you are saying that didn't happen.

Downtown is on the ropes; the Mavs and Stars leaving AAC which is right across Woodall sure as hell doesn't help. Negative halo effect if you will.

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No. They did not. And there is a lot of misinformation being thrown around and the source is, you guessed it, Dallas officials. Tremendous amount of CYA taking place.

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Alright. Well, I guess the DMN is lying then, or just reporting blatantly false information. Not that they haven't before but it wasn't an article in favor of Dallas leadership. It was pretty damning and they had a response from the Mavs office on it.

There was never even a feasibility study done…no proposal ever made.

investorAg83 said:

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There was never even a feasibility study done…no proposal ever made.

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It was on the table however unrealistic it may have been.

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The only potentially viable downtown location the city pitched to the Mavericks encompasses the land that includes City Hall, the iconic 47-year-old structure designed by acclaimed architect I.M. Pei.

Multiple people close to Mavericks governor Dumont say he grew increasingly leery of becoming the face of a tear-down-City Hall movement, especially since it wasn't the Mavericks' idea in the first place.

Along with availability, multiple people close to negotiations said the Mavericks had logistical concerns about the City Hall site's ingress and egress on game and concert nights.

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Oh it was thrown around but never formally proposed or even remotely off the ground. And again, there wasn't enough land/space for them to do what they're planning.

80085 said:

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YouBet said:

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So, I guess the Mavs were offered IM Pei City Hall site but turned it down. Watching Dallas implode in real-time is pretty incredible.

Stars, Mavs, AT&T, Neiman Marcus, Fifth Third Bank (Comerica). Dallas County losing population for the first time in decades.

Will be damn near impossible to recover from this.

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VV is Dallas, and AAC isnt downtown

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N. of LBJ / 635 ... a safe distance from downtown Dallas

Bad for downtown but it does solve a significant, long-standing headache with Valley View. Between the number of businesses up that tollway corridor, the Mavs won't feel a pinch on fans at all.

I'd like to see the AAC pull from Gexa/Starplex to stay in decent usage. That venue is so crappy and outdated - terrible parking/ingress/egress situation, terribly outdated bathroom situation, lousy concessions situation, hot AF with tons of bad "seats". It won't solve 80+ nights per year, but they could definitely lean in on concerts and solve part of the problem

The city hall site never made any sense. It wasn't going to solve the city hall problem, I don't see that end of downtown drawing the surrounding development they want, and a massive investment is already being made there to update KBH. Doubling down at the same location with no solve for city hall made no sense.

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I'd like to see the AAC pull from Gexa/Starplex to stay in decent usage. That venue is so crappy and outdated - terrible parking/ingress/egress situation, terribly outdated bathroom situation, lousy concessions situation, hot AF with tons of bad "seats". It won't solve 80+ nights per year, but they could definitely lean in on concerts and solve part of the problem

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Its gonna be very interesting to see how all these "show only" venues deal with splitting the take.

Right now we have Gexa, Toyota MF, Dickies Arena, AAC and AT&T sharing shows. Add in the new McKinney ampitheater and then 2 new sports arenas when the Mavs/Stars build theirs and that a lot of wealth sharing. Some of them are bound to not make it

wangus12 said:

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I'd like to see the AAC pull from Gexa/Starplex to stay in decent usage. That venue is so crappy and outdated - terrible parking/ingress/egress situation, terribly outdated bathroom situation, lousy concessions situation, hot AF with tons of bad "seats". It won't solve 80+ nights per year, but they could definitely lean in on concerts and solve part of the problem

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Its gonna be very interesting to see how all these "show only" venues deal with splitting the take.

Right now we have Gexa, Toyota MF, Dickies Arena, AAC and AT&T sharing shows. Add in the new McKinney ampitheater and then 2 new sports arenas when the Mavs/Stars build theirs and that a lot of wealth sharing. Some of them are bound to not make it

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There is also some trend going on right now of acts cancelling shows at a decent clip although I can't recall the reason.

Nationwide or just here in the metroplex?

wangus12 said:

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Nationwide or just here in the metroplex?

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Nationwide. "Blue dot fever" is what I've seen in headlines which is just a visual of people looking at seat maps and seeing empty seats.

Reality is this which people are then seeing show up on these seat maps.

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Concerts and tours are being canceled due to a combination of high ticket prices, declining sales, artist health concerns, and changing consumer spending habits.

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The disparity between the haves and have nots has widened and what's interesting…the haves are spending their money on experiences vs things. Vacations, sports tickets, concerts, etc. The 50+ community of pre-retirees have never had it better…home prices and rates when they bought, job market, their 401k balances and the growth while they've stayed invested because they could…everything is in their favor. And they're spending it on experiences which in turn is why the markup has been what it's been. They can bear it.

It's sad that the current leadership level is so low compared to the DCC and the CCA. Incredibly sad.

What are those initials?

Dallas Citizens Council and the Citizens Charter Association

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While the DCC remained in the background focusing on big-picture business, the CCA actively slated and endorsed candidates for mayor and the Dallas City Council.

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It felt like a civic center.