So take a few sets of twins on crappy American diets of sugar and processed crap and put one on a vegan diet and the other is a control. The vegan does/feels better… could do the same thing putting one on carnivore or keto or paleo.

It's on my tv right now. Just watched the part where a food safety expert put something called Glo Germ on raw chicken before the two ladies made a meal.

It was so stupid and slanted and fake.

bam02 said:

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So take a few sets of twins on crappy American diets of sugar and processed crap and put one on a vegan diet and the other is a control. The vegan does/feels better… could do the same thing putting one on carnivore or keto or paleo.

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100%

When I saw this doc was done by the people who did "Gamechangers" which was basically a vegan jerk fest, I decided not to watch this series. The whole "there's only one way to do it" is bogus.

Any diet you do over SAD will improve your health and metrics. But is it the best and only way to do it? No way.

lazuras_dc said:

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bam02 said:

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So take a few sets of twins on crappy American diets of sugar and processed crap and put one on a vegan diet and the other is a control. The vegan does/feels better… could do the same thing putting one on carnivore or keto or paleo.

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100%

When I saw this doc was done by the people who did "Gamechangers" which was basically a vegan jerk fest, I decided not to watch this series. The whole "there's only one way to do it" is bogus.

Any diet you do over SAD will improve your health and metrics. But is it the best and only way to do it? No way.

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Thanks for the review. I was interested in it but no way I'm going vegan at this point in my journey so not really interested in consuming their propaganda.

As soon as they started talking about cow farts, it was obvious which direction it was going.

Ghost of Bisbee said:

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The omnivore diet was still a "good diet" though

One takeaway I had was both diets are better than what most Americans typically eat

I appreciated how much emphasis they put on showing plant-based food innovation. That's the missing piece for me. Some of that stuff looked appetizing. That deli meat option looked pretty amazing

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We've only watched the first episode. We're still going to give it a go because I'm interested in diets effects between twins. But in the first episode it was obvious the series will have a slant, a premise that people shouldn't be eating meat was blatantly established. So it'll be watched with skepticism, to say the least.

What I don't understand about the vegan movement are things like what I bolded in your post. They also established how much processed food is in the American diet and how bad it is for you, which I 100% agree with. But what's their response? Lets try to turn a common meat based item into a vegan one by throwing a royal crap ton of salt, colorings, bindings, oils, starches, etc. into it.

Thought the same thing, all that love for the processed meat alternatives was very contradictory after lamenting over cow farts and tv dinners.

Ghost of Bisbee said:

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I don't know how anyone can debate that meat-based diets are healthier for you than plant-based diets after seeing the impact the saturated fats and LDL cholesterol has on arteries.
And I'm a very meat and potatoes guy. I don't like vegetables lol, but I'm going to start building more of the plant based foods into my diet

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The debate is that it isn't necessarily cholesterol by itself that leads to heart disease. It is cholesterol in an environment of chronic inflammation. You can have cholesterol off the charts but if you don't have inflammation, it is completely benign. There is a lot of research showing that heavy protein and meat diets that cut out nearly all carbohydrate greatly reduces inflammation.

Most of the historical studies looking at people eating high red meat diets don't control for the rest of the diet. Those people are eating cheeseburgers and junk. And yes, they have bad outcomes.

Absolutely it has. It's been shown to reverse type 2 diabetes as well.

bam02 said:

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Ghost of Bisbee said:

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I don't know how anyone can debate that meat-based diets are healthier for you than plant-based diets after seeing the impact the saturated fats and LDL cholesterol has on arteries.
And I'm a very meat and potatoes guy. I don't like vegetables lol, but I'm going to start building more of the plant based foods into my diet

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The debate is that it isn't necessarily cholesterol by itself that leads to heart disease. It is cholesterol in an environment of chronic inflammation. You can have cholesterol off the charts but if you don't have inflammation, it is completely benign. There is a lot of research showing that heavy protein and meat diets that cut out nearly all carbohydrate greatly reduces inflammation.

Most of the historical studies looking at people eating high red meat diets don't control for the rest of the diet. Those people are eating cheeseburgers and junk. And yes, they have bad outcomes.

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"Cholesterol" and 'inflammation" needs to be defined further if you're making definitive statements as to whether they do or do not increase risk of cardiovascular disease.

It is my understanding that overall cholesterol is not the issue- it's specifically LDL and ApoB markers. These markers are specifically raised with high levels of dietary saturated fat.

Carnivore diets can be done with lower saturated fats, and vegan diets can be done with high saturated fats (coconut oil is extremely high in saturated fat, despite it being vegan). So yes, a carnivore diet can lead to lower risk of cardiovascular disease if done correctly. And a vegan diet can raise risk of cardiovascular disease if done incorrectly

Here's a good talk between two physicians about this very topic, one of whom is a low-carb cardiologist

It was an awful show due to an egregious level of bias. It was comical watching them try to spin the dexa scan results when they really weren't better for the vegans.

An 8 week study is far too short to reach a conclusion on food/diet. When you consider 34 of 44 of the participants were women the general applications of the "results" are diminished as well.

I agree that isn't generally accepted in medicine or nutrition. I put less and less faith in their consensus.

Halfway through episode two and trying hard to not turn it off….

What does cows farting and their greenhouse gases have to do with a diet?

Didn't realize I'd get lectured on how I'm killing the Amazon rainforest and the world from a health/diet show.

True Anomaly said:

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bam02 said:

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Yes LDL and Apo B are the most important because they are the most atherosclerotic. They tend to "bore" into the artery wall more so than the other lipids, but again, this is typically dependent upon inflammation or other controllable factors like diabetes and smoking.

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I would argue that chronically elevated levels of LDL and Apo B in the setting of someone without diabetes or smoking somehow leading to clinically significant lower levels of cardiovascular disease is not generally accepted in medicine or nutrition. Maybe future research will help further delineate this so we can come to a more general, objective conclusion

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What's currently happening is people are seeing various influencers that cherry pick data and give hypotheses that LDL doesn't matter, just eat carnivore and your inflammation will go down, and all these other claims that aren't backed by quality evidence. There are anecdotes out there, but not enough data to form a true conclusion on evidence. And many people are using themselves as the guinea pigs. Unfortunately, those that have harms develop are probably not going to go publish their results in aggregate for it to get attention.

I am by no means a vegan. And I tell people they should consider trying carnivore if they want to see how it affects them. But there are risks associated with it. The overwhelming amount of data out there supports the notion that elevated LDL is bad for you. High HDL may counteract that to an extent, but the data still seems to show that high LDL is still worse for you than lower LDL.

Now certainly there are other markers of metabolic health that affect the cardiovascular system, and even blood pressure can have a greater impact in some cases than LDL. I have seen individuals with chronic high BP get off meds when they went vegan. There are also people that get off diabetes meds when they go vegan.

I think at the end of the day, the key for the majority of people is to just get rid of the junk and eat a balanced, minimally processed diet. That being said, if you're overweight, you probably would benefit from any diet that helps get you to a lower weight, whether it's carnivore or vegan. However, for an average person at a healthy weight, I think an omnivore ,minimally processed diet, with lots of healthy fats, is probably the way to go.

You could say the exact same thing about vegans, no?

Maybe it's them not eating McDonald's and two bowls of ice cream for dinner everyday, not the beyond burger that helped?

Not sure why it's funny?

You're saying those taunting the carnivore diet are biased and pushing their agenda. I agree. And I'd never go on a carnivore diet.

I'm saying most people preaching for vegan diets are as well. You can't look at this series and say they aren't. They delve into all sorts of things that have zero to do with health to push their agenda.

So, I take everything they're saying with the same grain of salt I do those saying carnivore diets are the way to go.

Personally, I limit processed foods and try to have a balanced diet. Eat more fish and chicken than red meat. When I do red meat I do more venison than beef. Limit sugar and sweets, though I struggled with that over the holidays.

I really am disappointed the series wasn't more neutral. I was excited about the premise of it.

This particular show isn't starting a conversation, it's pushing an agenda.

This show was perfectly horrible and i implore you to not bother watching it.

The premise was great. The outcome was nothing other than a "no s**t sherlock" dataset.

Vegans lost muscle. Their cholesterol was better. Follow me for more health tips.

The premise was nothing more than a mirage to tell people how horrible climate change is and how we're all going to melt because of horrible climate change. Our only hope is to eat veggies that are hand planted and pulled. You are also scum if you eat meat.

I'd be shocked if the fine print in the credits didn't apologize for the carbon required to power the cameras and equipment to film the show.

Side note: has anyone ever seen a salmon like the one they showed? Scraping crisco from it? I think that was BS.