What Kids Are Really Learning About Slavery

5,393 Views | 60 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by Rongagin71
Presley OBannons Sword
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BQ78 said:

So how far do we have to get away in time from Jim Crow to finally say all is well?

Remember racism was dead when we elected a "Black" President only to see it rear its ugly head as a divisive issue and it is getting even worse under the new president. How far do we have to get away before the issue is no longer inequality and racism?

The answer is it will never be declared that all is well.
Sapper Redux
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Presley OBannons Sword said:

BQ78 said:

So how far do we have to get away in time from Jim Crow to finally say all is well?

Remember racism was dead when we elected a "Black" President only to see it rear its ugly head as a divisive issue and it is getting even worse under the new president. How far do we have to get away before the issue is no longer inequality and racism?

The answer is it will never be declared that all is well.


It was an accepted, daily part of life that shaped this nation for 450 years. And you're shocked it isn't gone as an issue 50 years after legal segregation was outlawed and while many folks who grew up in openly racist households are still with us?
Presley OBannons Sword
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Maybe if you recommend a bunch of books I'll understand better.
Sapper Redux
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Presley OBannons Sword said:

Maybe if you recommend a bunch of books I'll understand better.


Maybe. But I have a feeling you prefer not to learn anything about this topic.
Ag_EQ12
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AG
Presley OBannons Sword said:

Maybe if you recommend a bunch of books I'll understand better.
lol You have to read them, not color in them Marine...
BQ78
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AG
Watson:

So do you think the problems facing poor blacks today are still more about racist attitudes of elderly whites, rather than the victimhood certain political leaders sell to them?
Sapper Redux
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BQ78 said:

Watson:

So do you think the problems facing poor blacks today are still more about racist attitudes of elderly whites, rather than the victimhood certain political leaders sell to them?


Much more about systemic issues. Those elderly whites lived in, reinforced, and built the system that's only started changing.
BQ78
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AG
So the system is so loaded against black Americans that even 50 years of affirmative action can't offset it? Does AA even help, as in many ways the system seems to be holding them back more than 20 years ago? Is this white system the one that is causing young black men to eschew education or is it being perpetrated on themselves by their fellows? Why aren't the Chinese equally traumatized as an ethnicity?
Smokedraw01
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BQ78 said:

So how far do we have to get away in time from Jim Crow to finally say all is well?

Remember racism was dead when we elected a "Black" President only to see it rear its ugly head as a divisive issue and it is getting even worse under the new president. How far do we have to get away before the issue is no longer inequality and racism?


Who said racism was dead after we elected a black president?
BQ78
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AG
That was more how it was portrayed in some mediums, racism will never go away but I find our society is probably the least racist today than any others in the world including so called progressive nations in Europe, where racism has better wings.
Sapper Redux
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BQ78 said:

So the system is so loaded against black Americans that even 50 years of affirmative action can't offset it? Does AA even help, as in many ways the system seems to be holding them back more than 20 years ago? Is this white system the one that is causing young black men to eschew education or is it being perpetrated on themselves by their fellows? Why aren't the Chinese equally traumatized as an ethnicity?


I think affirmative action has become a boogie man in conservative quarters that is so powerful it becomes impossible to have an honest discussion about how limited the program is and how how it isn't intended to address the most serious structural issues that created and perpetuate racial inequality.

Take home ownership. Blacks after the Civil War received no land, no property, and no financial support. They came from being literal property and expected to find the means to support themselves while the best lands remained in the hands of those who previously owned them. Can you see how this might create a structural imbalance that only gets reinforced over time? If you add to that the social and cultural norms of racism, where blacks are seen as lazy, prone to criminal behavior, and ignorant, it becomes almost impossible for black Americans to escape cycles of dependency and poverty in any large numbers (especially in agriculture, where so much is beyond the control of the farmers on a seasonal basis).

This is without adding onto our picture the additional layer of Jim Crow laws and lynchings that actively work to keep blacks in ignorant poverty. Come the Great Depression and post WWII, housing laws and the distribution of local, state, and federal funds give opportunities to poor whites to find jobs, good affordable housing, and higher education while not extending the same privileges go blacks. This is a real program of affirmative action that changes societies. But it was for whites only.

Now, decades after these processes have driven black Americans as low as possible while giving a leg up to white Americans, we dismantle the laws without dismantling the society that created those laws. So the criminal justice system still has biases. Housing is still largely segregated by race, and poverty is still endemic to minority communities with poor educational opportunities. Are people ultimately responsible for their own actions? Of course. Are things better in 2018 than 1918 or even 1988? Yes. Does that mean everything is fine or that white men are now victims of discrimination? No. The data and all the evidence does not support that.

As for the Chinese, ethnic and immigration history is fascinating. The Chinese faced terrible racism in this country. But they came voluntarily as laborers and most left to go home. The growth in that population is driven by well-educated middle income immigrants who were fairly successful in China but wanted the opportunity here. Different base population.
Smokedraw01
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BQ78 said:

So the system is so loaded against black Americans that even 50 years of affirmative action can't offset it? Does AA even help, as in many ways the system seems to be holding them back more than 20 years ago? Is this white system the one that is causing young black men to eschew education or is it being perpetrated on themselves by their fellows? Why aren't the Chinese equally traumatized as an ethnicity?


50 years of AA isn't going to undo 370+ years of white affirmative action.
Rongagin71
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AG
The argument for Affirmative Action, and for Johnson's Great Society, were pretty much the same as what has been rehashed here.
The results of those programs have been disappointing to me, I originally supported both, but am now mostly voting Republican.
BQ78
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Watson and Red Ags:

I appreciate much of what you say but at the same time I still question why some ethnic groups have overcome prejudice and racial injustice and others have more difficulty with it. No doubt the African race received a major kick in the teeth being dragged here in chains but I would say the Irish did not want to come here either and it was forced upon them, yet within 100 years they were completely assimilated. Granted they had white skin and would find it easier. But come on guys we need to up AA and put it in place for 300 more years before it will work?!?

I also resent that I am personally considered part of the problem by today's SJWs, when I absolutely am not.
Aggies Revenge
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BQ78 said:

Watson and Red Ags:

I appreciate much of what you say but at the same time I still question why some ethnic groups have overcome prejudice and racial injustice and others have more difficulty with it. No doubt the African race received a major kick in the teeth being dragged here in chains but I would say the Irish did not want to come here either and it was forced upon them, yet within 100 years they were completely assimilated. Granted they had white skin and would find it easier. But come on guys we need to up AA and put it in place for 300 more years before it will work?!?

I also resent that I am personally considered part of the problem by today's SJWs, when I absolutely am not.
I would say for starters, the Irish did not have a whole series of legal codes passed to prevent them from advancing or disenfranchising them. Segregation and Jim Crow picked up where slavery left off and continued until the 1950s. Other than social factors that were overcame within a generation or two, the Irish encountered no such legal restrictions.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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BQ78 said:

I also resent that I am personally considered part of the problem by today's SJWs, when I absolutely am not.
Not to derail, but this is what drives people to join up with Richard Spencer and his ilk.

I'm sure that most of us get along well with all types of people; I go to a church that is mixed enough that there is only a white plurality, teach Sunday school with asian, hispanic, black people, etc. My wife is a teacher an a cheer coach at a predominately black school, all of her cheerleaders are black or mixed (and often baby sit our infant). Race, color, etc don't matter to us at all.

Yet somehow, by having white skin we are participants in a system that is designed to oppress people who do not look like us? By not apologizing for atrocities of the past, somehow we are racists white nationalists?

I know far too many successful black, hispanic, or oppressed minority du jour to put the "systemic argument" lie to bed. Is there historical baggage weighing down the greater black community? Absolutely. But more damaging is the programs of the past 50 years that were designed with the best of intentions to help and a culture that almost cherishes victimhood and helplessness.

Smokedraw01
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Aggies Revenge said:

BQ78 said:

Watson and Red Ags:

I appreciate much of what you say but at the same time I still question why some ethnic groups have overcome prejudice and racial injustice and others have more difficulty with it. No doubt the African race received a major kick in the teeth being dragged here in chains but I would say the Irish did not want to come here either and it was forced upon them, yet within 100 years they were completely assimilated. Granted they had white skin and would find it easier. But come on guys we need to up AA and put it in place for 300 more years before it will work?!?

I also resent that I am personally considered part of the problem by today's SJWs, when I absolutely am not.
I would say for starters, the Irish did not have a whole series of legal codes passed to prevent them from advancing or disenfranchising them. Segregation and Jim Crow picked up where slavery left off and continued until the 1950s. Other than social factors that were overcame within a generation or two, the Irish encountered no such legal restrictions.


Not we're the Irish prevented from taking advantage of the original GI Bill, or government backed home loans, or allowed to get higher paying jobs when they got back home from WW2. They were put back in their place and made to stay there.
Smokedraw01
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BQ78 said:

Watson and Red Ags:

I appreciate much of what you say but at the same time I still question why some ethnic groups have overcome prejudice and racial injustice and others have more difficulty with it. No doubt the African race received a major kick in the teeth being dragged here in chains but I would say the Irish did not want to come here either and it was forced upon them, yet within 100 years they were completely assimilated. Granted they had white skin and would find it easier. But come on guys we need to up AA and put it in place for 300 more years before it will work?!?

I also resent that I am personally considered part of the problem by today's SJWs, when I absolutely am not.


I'd say that we allowed affirmative action to be in place for whites that long, why not for blacks as well?
Rongagin71
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AG
You keep saying whites had Affirmative Action, but that is not true....I think you mean blacks were discriminated against and somehow this benefitted whites?
And the Irish, both Protestant and Catholic, had plenty of laws that discriminated against them.
Even Americans were prohibited from having industry that would compete with the English...an example is Squire Boone (Daniel Boone's father) who who had to keep his cloth mill in Pennsylvania secret.
Presley OBannons Sword
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who do you think the poor WASPs 350 years ago blamed? surely there were such men.
Fashing through the snow
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BQ78 said:

So the system is so loaded against black Americans that even 50 years of affirmative action can't offset it? Does AA even help, as in many ways the system seems to be holding them back more than 20 years ago? Is this white system the one that is causing young black men to eschew education or is it being perpetrated on themselves by their fellows? Why aren't the Chinese equally traumatized as an ethnicity?
500,000ags
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I believe what was once systemic racial inequality has now turned into systemic economic inequality. Some point to the fact that Affirmative Action hasn't worked over the last 50 years, while in the background economics completely changed over that time period.

1950s - Richest 1% earned between 8% and 10% of total income.
2010s - Richest 1% earn greater than 23% of total income.

That's way too much negative change and downward economic pressure to claim something as large as Affirmative Action simply didn't work as intended.

Rongagin71
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Isn't it strange that California, probably the most liberal state, leads the way in having a rich/poor society with little middle class?
claym711
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Academia...pushing the culture of victimhood as far as possible.
Ag_EQ12
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JJMt said:

Watson (f/k/a Sapper) raises excellent points. My heart truly goes out to blacks who tried to excel and succeed in America's past. I once worked with a black Army officer who's granddad was wealthy, owning a chain of funeral homes in Mississippi. However, he did not keep any of his money in the local bank, but instead distributed his money at over 50 banks throughout the south. The reason? He did not want the white folks to know that he had money, because if they did, they'd take it from him. The rule of law simply did not apply to blacks in many places in the U.S., especially in the south.

However, something I don't understand is why do blacks fit into the same socio-economic patterns almost everywhere you find them in the world? In almost any country where there is a multi-ethnic population that includes blacks, blacks fill the very lowest tier, and their cultural characteristics are identical to those exhibited in the U.S. In those other countries, the plight of the black population cannot be explained by Jim Crow laws, discrimination ingrained into the legal system, and sometimes not even by slavery.

Not sure about that. Blacks in Germany and Britain do pretty well.

However racism against blacks (the root of the Black Codes, Jim Crow laws, and discrimination) is certainly not restricted to the US.
Rongagin71
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AG
I did a little research on your claim that blacks do well in Britain, expecting that they would mostly be high caste Hindus from India, but apparently there is quite a mix:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/30/what-it-means-to-be-black-in-britain-today
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