Why were indians so savage?

20,658 Views | 170 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by UTExan
KingofHazor
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Sorry to butt into your conversation with Sapper, but are you denying that the Europeans committed atrocities against the Indians? If so, that position seems to be untenable. The evidence is overwhelming of numerous horrific atrocities committed by Europeans and Americans against Indians.

To be clear, my point is that the Indians, as people, were also guilty of atrocities against Europeans. Both sides were equally guilty.
Rongagin71
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AG
Guilty, yes.
Equally guilty, no.
BoerneGator
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Jabin said:

Sorry to butt into your conversation with Sapper, but are you denying that the Europeans committed atrocities against the Indians? If so, that position seems to be untenable. The evidence is overwhelming of numerous horrific atrocities committed by Europeans and Americans against Indians.

To be clear, my point is that the Indians, as people, were also guilty of atrocities against Europeans. Both sides were equally guilty.

Nothing in my posts on this thread would lead one to conclude with your question. I invite you to read them once again.

Unless and until you've walked in someone's shoes, be careful how you criticize them; not to mention the centuries that have passed.
Sapper Redux
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BoerneGator said:

Sapper Redux said:

Gnadenhutten. Paxton Boys. Multiple wars in colonial and early republic US were as a result of breaching treaties and encroaching on US land. The initiation of these wars frequently involved atrocities by the Anglo-American forces. As soon as war was declared throughout the 18th century, scalp bounties were enacted and paid to colonists who presented any scalp, no matter how it was acquired, for payment.

I challenged your unequivocal statement and asked you to prove me wrong. You did (can) not, but proceeded to cite treaty violations. Arguable, to say the least, but hardly proof of barbarism. Scalping, while regrettable, was doubtful widespread, nor likely initiated by "the white man". I suspect you are some "professor" type who's read too much of one perspective and adopted it as Gospel. Not buying what your "selling"! It's mythology, and not very good at that.
The Paxton Boys attacked local, friendly Indians in order to start a war that would open more of the Ohio valley for their settlement. Gnadenhutten involved an attack against a group of pacifist Moravian Christian Indians. The massacre involved raping all of the women and girls, and then individually selecting each one of the Indians and scalping them to death. The death toll was mostly women and children. These were people not at all involved in any war.

The Northwest Indian War after the Revolution was started by the US. It began by attacking villages while the men were away and killing the remaining noncombatants, including tribal leaders who had recently signed treaties with the US. I'm limiting this to the late 18th century. And the violation of treaties often involved militias attacking local native villages.
RGV AG
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I am an avid fan of history, but only a fledgling scholar, and a mere neophyte, and while I really enjoy history discussions, in particular on this board, I don't think condemning nor approving of motivations and actions of the past with any type of revisionist eye is too valuable.

To judge the actions of the past by standards of the current times just causes head scratching and teeth gnashing. The reality of the situation was that in the colonial and expansionist times, that were the majority of the history of this continent, the standards applied had long been in effect. It is easy to understand, if we are to look back, the actions of the Indians as by the late 1600's is was apparent to most that a cataclysmic change was taking place, and while they may not have had any idea of the future, they knew that what they knew from the past was changing and not by their own making.

Go no further than Columbus imposing a tribute requirement upon all Indians on Hispanola requiring a Hawk's bill of gold every 3 months or they were punished with having their hands cut off and being let to bleed to death. All while being ravaged by disease. The accounts of the Spanish atrocities are fairly sobering. Give the English credit they were not as despicable, but they like the Spanish, and or most non-indentured and or European serfs, viewed the Indians and blacks, and Asians as sub-human. That is just the reality. And if I were being subjugated and my tribe consumed by disease, that they had to associate with white people, I would have probably pulled out all stops too.

Looking back can be "flipped" as well. What would most Christians of the 16th-19th century opine about western civilization accepting abortion as a right? They would view this as vile and reprehensible. Thus Europan immigrants viewed native peoples as obstacles to imposing their preferred way of life and did all necessary, in their eyes, to obtain what they believed right, just, and natural. The Indians just played defense as best they could as well.

BoerneGator
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While I can appreciate your self-proclaimed expertise on these select historical events, without proper context, they do nothing to prove your original claim, which I challenged, that the original settlers introduced barbarism, seemingly unprovoked, into their relationship with the Indians they encountered, and only escalated it until the Indians had been subdued. You've not responded directly to that challenge with compelling evidence to support your claim.

I've no doubt that atrocities were committed by both "sides". That is the nature of war. Beyond that, this argument is purely academic, as it won't change the past nor the future. I'm just grateful I didn't hafta live through that era.
Sapper Redux
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Columbus's men drove an entire nation to leave their homeland and flee. Something their neighbors, no matter how violent, had never caused. The English attack on Fort Mystic was considered so outside the pale that their allies present at the fight left the conflict and returned home. The deliberate targeting of non-combatants for death was introduced by Europeans in areas like New England.
RGV AG
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Europeans had, and continued, a long history of brutality. Look no further than the Crusades, the massacre and taking of Jerusalem, the culmination of the first crusade, according to most accounts was horrific display of brutality. Those types of actions/situations, while not extremely common did occur for hundreds of years afterwards and well into even the previous century. The Mohammedans did the same in return and had previously displayed no mercy in many instances which basically drove a "turn about is fair play" frame of mind.

Human history is littered with this types of situation when differing cultures and religions are enjoined in conflict and especially when there is wealth and expansionist desires involved.

It is doubtful that modern man will truly ever know, with precision, the activities and the actions of native American cultures. But glimpses, via observations and interpretations of codex's as well as relation of oral histories, of Meso American culture also gravitate towards a harsh and violent culture that embraced slavery and subjugation. I would think that Northern Native American Indians also had experience and seeds of these types of instances within their frame of reference as well.
KingofHazor
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There you go again - Europeans all bad and Indians good. Let's deconstruct your statements:

Quote:

Columbus's men drove an entire nation to leave their homeland and flee. Something their neighbors, no matter how violent, had never caused.
How do you know that their neighbors had never driven an entire "nation" to leave their homeland and flee? How long had that nation been in place? Had there been any other peoples there before them? What historical documents exist to support your bald assertion? Are you limiting that assertion to only the nation driven out by Columbus, or to all Indians at all times?

Do you acknowledge that there are lots and lots of indications of Indian nations driving competing nations out of their "homelands"? (And what's a "homeland", by the way? What makes something a homeland? How long does a people have to be on a spot for it to become a "homeland"?)

Quote:

The English attack on Fort Mystic was considered so outside the pale that their allies present at the fight left the conflict and returned home.
What original source documents are you relying upon for that statement? Isn't it in fact an overstatement? Isn't it more correct that a few individuals of the Indian allies left, but many remained and in fact participated in the massacre with the English?

Quote:

The deliberate targeting of non-combatants for death was introduced by Europeans in areas like New England.
That's just a total modern reinvention of history. Rousseau would be proud of you. The American Indians had always targeted "non-combatants". And what's a "non-combatant" anyway? Aren't you using that term for emotional impact rather than to convey truth?
BoerneGator
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Quote:

The English attack on Fort Mystic was considered so outside the pale...


One can find similar critiques regarding America's employment of the atomic bomb against Japan in order to bring WWII to a conclusion. Does not make those critiques justifiable or even fair in the absence of context. One might argue that Pearl Harbor justified whatever ensued, but if not, what about the Bataan Death March, or countless other examples of Japanese atrocities.

Without any context, the Mystic event raises more questions than you have answered. Yet you fail to offer any context. Do you consider yourself a historian? You come across as a propagandist.

Btw, fire bombing was widely employed in both theaters of WWII, killing many hundreds of thousands of so-called "innocents". The moral: DON'T START **** YOU CANT FINISH!
War is hell!
BoerneGator
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Quote:

Europeans had, and continued, a long history of brutality. Look no further than the Crusades,
Its been years since I "studied" the Crusades, but if memory serves, I'm fairly certain they were in response to aggression. Context is sooo important.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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Can't most of these posts be true? The world was extremely brutal and awful.
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
BoerneGator
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What is true often depends on one's perspective... something this thread lacks.
RGV AG
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Quote:

Its been years since I "studied" the Crusades, but if memory serves, I'm fairly certain they were in response to aggression. Context is sooo important.
BG, the Crusades are fascinating really. Over the course of the last, say, 42 years or so I will get enthralled with them and binge on some reading material for a few months, and then drop them for a spell. I have read extensively on them and still don't feel that I truly grasp things, and I think it is because I look at it with a more modern eye.

In relation to them, if I had to summarize things I would say that they were the first full scale Religious fraud executed in a huge manner. Before Jim and Tammy Faye and world wide television shows promoting Jesus and salvation you had the Crusades. The Christian centuries of rage. The Crusades were a veiled in religion wealth and power grab, and a lot of folks created a lot of wealth and gained a lot of power. Terrible and horrible violence and effects really.

Always remember that the Christians not only went after the *******, but also sacked their own city driving a lasting wedge between the east and the west.

And later the Spanish "ecomenderos" destroyed entire civilizations by the divine right granted to them, by mortals mind you, to save them and bring them to Christianity.

As we agree, those were different and harsh times, ones that none of us on this board can truly come close to grasping.
RGV AG
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Quote:

How do you know that their neighbors had never driven an entire "nation" to leave their homeland and flee?
Sapper is accurate on this, maybe not exactly in the terms, but if he is referring to Hatuey who fled what is now Haiti with his whole tribe/nation to go to Cuba to escape the Spanish he is accurate.

What the Spanish, i.e. Columbus and his brother and many others, did on Hispanola would make the devil weep. I have spent a lot of time in both Haiti and the DR, and you can almost feel the ghosts of anguish and despair there, no kidding. You go down to the docks in Santo Domingo, or the harbour in Cap Haiten and you can't help but sense that those lands hold the souls of so many taken, abused, and robbed of life.

Read up on Hatuey, he is an admirable figure.
BoerneGator
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Just ran across this interesting factoid on another thread that is both interesting and provides context to this thread regarding behaviors/barbarism that can lead to reactions in kind:

Quote:

The estimated that a quarter of a million Chinese men, women and children were killed by the Japanese in retribution for aiding and abetting the Doolittle Raiders.

I don't believe the Japanese soldier had any peer when it came to barbaric behavior during the era of WWII.
KingofHazor
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RGV AG said:

Quote:

How do you know that their neighbors had never driven an entire "nation" to leave their homeland and flee?
Sapper is accurate on this, maybe not exactly in the terms, but if he is referring to Hatuey who fled what is now Haiti with his whole tribe/nation to go to Cuba to escape the Spanish he is accurate.

What the Spanish, i.e. Columbus and his brother and many others, did on Hispanola would make the devil weep. I have spent a lot of time in both Haiti and the DR, and you can almost feel the ghosts of anguish and despair there, no kidding. You go down to the docks in Santo Domingo, or the harbour in Cap Haiten and you can't help but sense that those lands hold the souls of so many taken, abused, and robbed of life.

Read up on Hatuey, he is an admirable figure.

You've completely missed my point. My point wasn't to question that the Indians fled to escape Columbus, but rather that we have no knowledge whatsoever about what happened pre-Columbus. Who was living in Haiti before Hatuey and his people? Was anyone? If so, what happened to them? Did Hatuey's people drive them out?

Sapper makes it seem that the Europeans were uniquely evil in human history. That's what I disagree with. Humans have shown a consistent pattern of evil throughout history and across cultures. Europeans may have had the technology to make their evil more "successful", but there was nothing unique about the evil of Europeans.
Rongagin71
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This all started with "Why were (American) Indians so savage"?

Which begs the answer "because they were savages".

Which begs the counterargument "Europeans were also savage".

I personally believe the AmInds were more savage because their culture demanded it,
but cannot deny that Europeans (especially the Spanish) could be very savage.

And this occasional savagery continues to this day - we may even destroy our whole world.

RGV AG
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Quote:

You've completely missed my point. My point wasn't to question that the Indians fled to escape Columbus, but rather that we have no knowledge whatsoever about what happened pre-Columbus. Who was living in Haiti before Hatuey and his people? Was anyone? If so, what happened to them? Did Hatuey's people drive them out?

Sapper makes it seem that the Europeans were uniquely evil in human history. That's what I disagree with. Humans have shown a consistent pattern of evil throughout history and across cultures. Europeans may have had the technology to make their evil more "successful", but there was nothing unique about the evil of Europeans.
Gotcha, I stand enlightened. Agree with what you are relating, although I didn't take sappers opinions to be exclusively geared towards the Indians, I took it as a position on extolling a view from the other side.

In bold is something that is well summarized and very true. We have seen examples of this throughout millennia.
RGV AG
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Quote:

I don't believe the Japanese soldier had any peer when it came to barbaric behavior during the era of WWII.
A valid viewpoint, what the Japs did in China and Korea, and Korea especially given the size of the country and duration of the occupation, was extremely evil. The actions and atrocities, some over 100 years ago, are still vivid in the minds of many of those countries. .
PabloSerna
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Lol, reading this thread about "savage" Indians.
Rongagin71
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PabloSerna said:

Lol, reading this thread about "savage" Indians.
It wasn't funny at all if you happened to be Daniel Boone's youngest son taking a swim in the river when the Indians came up. Boone's companion had gone off into the bushes to relieve himself and reported that the biggest Indian used a knife to repeatedly slash at the boy who tried to defend himself until his hands were in shreds - he eventually was slashed enough to fall and bleed out.
PabloSerna
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What I find humorous, and I do, is the reinforcing of this "savage" portrayal to justify the conquest of a people.

Cherry picking a strawman example does not answer the OPs title question, why "so savage?". History is full of savagery in my opinion in the pursuit of conquest.

We took their land plain and simple - by force. They saw us as invaders, and if you get to the end of S.C. Gwynne's book, you will read (or hear) about how Quanah Parker led the Comanches into a new era. Indeed, it was the clash of a great stone age culture with the advent of the industrial age. Smart of Parker to see this and act.

The words "merciless Indian savages" were included in our Declaration of Independence, and from what I am reading here, have not left our national conscious - for some.




KingofHazor
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Quote:

What I find humorous, and I do, is the reinforcing of this "savage" portrayal to justify the conquest of a people.
And equally humorous is the insistence of portraying the Indians as "noble savages" to try to try to indict today's Americans for actions that occurred 500-150 years ago.
BoerneGator
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PabloSerna said:

What I find humorous, and I do, is the reinforcing of this "savage" portrayal to justify the conquest of a people.

Cherry picking a strawman example does not answer the OPs title question, why "so savage?". History is full of savagery in my opinion in the pursuit of conquest.

We took their land plain and simple - by force. They saw us as invaders, and if you get to the end of S.C. Gwynne's book, you will read (or hear) about how Quanah Parker led the Comanches into a new era. Indeed, it was the clash of a great stone age culture with the advent of the industrial age. Smart of Parker to see this and act.

The words "merciless Indian savages" were included in our Declaration of Independence, and from what I am reading here, have not left our national conscious - for some.





"We" did nothing of the kind. This is only the first mistake in your thinking…if the passage of time (multiple centuries) proves nothing else, it proves the Indians' claim to ownership was only as good as their ability to maintain it. That is still the case today. Witness Ukraine for th3 latest episode of that theory. 330 million people share this big beautiful country, and aren't even approaching it's limits. Indians, as a people, were unwilling to share in the abundance they enjoyed, and resisted efforts to co-exist when push came to shove.

Indian culture was no match for the developing American culture, so the victor of any resultant conflict was obvious to any reasonable observer. Not sure if nor how things could have transpired differently, or at least "better" for the Indian, but am left to believe they share at least equal "blame" for their fate. The record is checkered with regrettable events. It serves no purpose to re litigate it here all these years later.
Sapper Redux
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Quote:

Indians, as a people, were unwilling to share in the abundance they enjoyed, and resisted efforts to co-exist when push came to shove.


You may want to revisit who was willing to coexist in much of North America and who continued to seize land and break treaties.
BoerneGator
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Pretty sure "we" are go-existing now; but on "our" terms. Indians relinquished their bargaining power along the way. Feel free to edumacate me where I've gone astray.
Rabid Cougar
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Arron Boone said that the New York Yankees were savages in the box.....
Rongagin71
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Sapper Redux said:

Quote:

Indians, as a people, were unwilling to share in the abundance they enjoyed, and resisted efforts to co-exist when push came to shove.


You may want to revisit who was willing to coexist in much of North America and who continued to seize land and break treaties.
The basic problem was most Indians did not want any farming done on their tribal lands...it was pretty easy for hunters to gain access with a small bribe like tobacco, but a farmer that settled and cleared land was seen by the Indians as a horrible invader. On the other hand, Europeans saw Indian attacks on farmers (and their families) as obvious savagery that needed to be replaced by Cristian society including owning written title to land.
Sapper Redux
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Check out Creatures of Empire or Ecological Imperialism. It was not the method of farming that bothered Indians. They were farmers themselves. English colonists allowed their livestock to roam freely, destroying Indian agriculture and damaging their hunting grounds. The English refused to change their patterns and repeatedly violated the treaties they had with the neighboring tribes.
KingofHazor
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Sapper Redux said:

Check out Creatures of Empire or Ecological Imperialism. It was not the method of farming that bothered Indians. They were farmers themselves. English colonists allowed their livestock to roam freely, destroying Indian agriculture and damaging their hunting grounds. The English refused to change their patterns and repeatedly violated the treaties they had with the neighboring tribes.
And didn't the Indians repeatedly violate the treaties that they had with whites? It's my understanding that the tribes often had no internal enforcement mechanisms, so although the tribe might enter into a treaty, the tribe had no way of enforcing that treaty against the tribal members. Further, the authority of the tribal members who signed the treaty would frequently be challenged by other tribal members and leaders.

A great example was the Comanches, who agreed to settle peacefully on their reservation in Oklahoma. But many tribal members, especially young men, said "BS" to that and engaged in raids deep into Texas, using the reservation as a refuge and base of operations.

Many if not most tribes really didn't have clearly defined territories, did they? For example, although no tribes apparently lived in Kentucky (for reasons I still don't understand), many claimed it and tried to exterminate the English who settled there.

Many tribes claimed vast territories that they could never begin utilizing or even to hold against their tribal enemies who also claimed that land. A modern analogy would be the modern national claims to the Arctic, the Antarctic or the Moon. Although many nations claim them, does their claim really have any basis?

And finally, many warlike tribes such as the Apaches and Comanches would exterminate anyone, white or Indian, wherever they found them.

The only examples you provide are of wrongs committed by the Europeans. Your examples are somewhat accurate albeit overstated. You refuse, however, to ever recount any wrongs committed by the Indians. That smacks of propaganda, not history.
BoerneGator
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Quote:

The only examples you provide are of wrongs committed by the Europeans. Your examples are somewhat accurate albeit overstated. You refuse, however, to ever recount any wrongs committed by the Indians. That smacks of propaganda, not history.

Indeed!

And why is it that a so/called teacher of history would engage in such? Deliberately...
RGV AG
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History is littered throughout millennia with the conquerors and the conquered, it is just the way of the world. Albeit a little less now in terms of violence but the shift in our small particle of history has become economic conquering and economic subjugation, less violent but the long term effects are very similar.

I don't profess to know much about north American Indians, other than they were somewhat more backward in terms of large civilization, building, and agriculture when compared to the Meso American cultures. Although I have heard that the civilization along the Miss. River and some of the "mound building" cultures were extensively developed but were hit hard by disease and such, not to mention antagonistic tribes. But that is another discussion.

Meso America could not have been conquered by the Spanish in the time nor manner it was without extensive native help. The Mexia (Aztecs) were beaten by Cortes due to the Totonaca and Tlaxcala Indians almost immediately siding up with the Spanish to overthrow their conquerors. Tribe displacement throughout Meso America is well documented, I have no reason to doubt it was not the same in North America. The natives of those times were no different than their European conquerors, the only difference was the technology, goals, and future plans. All of the parties involved in this discussion were subject to Human Nature and it showed through and through.

And the tribes that helped the Spanish? What became of them? They became serfs under the Economienda system and those that didn't die of disease were worked to death for the most part. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Sapper Redux
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BoerneGator said:

Quote:

The only examples you provide are of wrongs committed by the Europeans. Your examples are somewhat accurate albeit overstated. You refuse, however, to ever recount any wrongs committed by the Indians. That smacks of propaganda, not history.

Indeed!

And why is it that a so/called teacher of history would engage in such? Deliberately...


I'm arguing against a claim made to the contrary. I've already said, repeatedly, the Indians engaged in violence and atrocities.
PabloSerna
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Jabin said:

Quote:

What I find humorous, and I do, is the reinforcing of this "savage" portrayal to justify the conquest of a people.
And equally humorous is the insistence of portraying the Indians as "noble savages" to try to try to indict today's Americans for actions that occurred 500-150 years ago.
Well, they were people in my book. They fought and lost, period.

 
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