A Raucous State of the Union

3,139 Views | 19 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Sapper Redux
Rongagin71
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AG
Not sure how this one stacks up historically, but I've never personally seen so much yelling at a SOTU.
Leaving aside the politics, let us examine the facts as per The Jewish World Review...a neutral organ.

https://jewishworldreview.com/0223/fact_checker020823.php3

dead
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AG
This is an article from WaPo
Rongagin71
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Yeah, but I think JWR was first.

What I really want is more history to compare to current events -
like a couple of days ago when Sapper mentioned that Buchanan had explosive diarrhea during his inauguration.
Sapper Redux
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Part of the issue is that in-person State of the Union addresses are a much more recent phenomenon. In 1913, Wilson gave the first in-person address since the John Adams administration and Coolidge gave the first widely broadcast speech. Turning the SotU into a marquee event occurred in the 60s.

I would imagine that SotU speeches, if given in person, during the 1830s-1860 would have been… rambunctious. As it is, I would imagine TV actually kept the proceedings more dignified until the very modern era. Neither party in opposition has exactly showered themselves with glory during the speech for the last 10 years or so. We're seeing a race to the bottom in order to get the most media attention from the base.
Rabid Cougar
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Just takes a good ol' beating sometimes...


"After the sack of Lawrence, on May 21, 1856, Senator Charles Sumner, (R) Mass. gave a bitter speech in the Senate called "THE CRIME AGAINST KANSAS." He blasted the "murderous robbers from Missouri," calling them "hirelings, picked from the drunken spew and vomit of an uneasy civilization." Part of this oratory was a bitter, personal tirade against South Carolina's SENATOR ANDREW BUTLER. Sumner declared Butler an imbecile and said, "Senator Butler has chosen a mistress. I mean the harlot, slavery." During the speech, Stephen Douglas leaned over to a colleague and said, "that damn fool will get himself killed by some other damn fool." The speech went on for two days."

Canefight! Preston Brooks and Charles Sumner
Sapper Redux
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Brooks was a coward. Later he was challenged to a duel by one of Sumner's allies. When he found out the man was a crack shot, Brooks chickened out.
BQ78
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And Sumner was an ass who nobody liked including his own party, a nineteenth century Kamala.
Rabid Cougar
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Sapper Redux said:

Brooks was a coward. Later he was challenged to a duel by one of Sumner's allies. When he found out the man was a crack shot, Brooks chickened out.
Nothing wrong with a good duel either. A reminder that once your words and actions had consequences.
Sapper Redux
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BQ78 said:

And Sumner was an ass who nobody liked including his own party, a nineteenth century Kamala.


Sumner was maybe one of the most consequential senator in the 19th century and one of the most consequential in US history. He drove Republican policy for decades and was a major force behind the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments. Though he wasn't a great leader of the party and was personally unpopular with many.
BQ78
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Clay, Webster, Douglas and Calhoun were way more consequential, influential and diplomatic than Sumner IMO. All four were well liked by their colleagues, Sumner not so much.

Of course all but Clay were very influential in plunging the nation into Civil War.
Sapper Redux
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None of those men helped drive the end of slavery and the adoption of the Reconstruction amendments.
BQ78
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Slavery ended with the war and three of those four brought the war. Not the way you want to get it done but that is how it happened, so more consequential than Sumner IMO. Not totally pooh poohing on Sumner's contribution to the end of slavery but he did it more as an irritant and agitator than as a diplomat and getting laws passed.
Sapper Redux
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I don't know that you get the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments through the Senate without Sumner. Slavery "ended" with the war, but preventing some kind of return to enslavement required the 13th amendment.
dead
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Slavery is still allowed under the 13th
BQ78
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What role did he play in the passing of those amendments that was so crucial? Did he persuade his colleagues that were wavering? Introduce the bills? I know he was in favor of them and advocated for them strongly but if he did more than that it is news to me.
ja86
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[derail = on] as an aside, I always enjoy a good BQ78 vs. Sapper square off.... [derail = off]
Rongagin71
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I would like to post a non-Civil War YouTube having to do with how much different the American system used to be...no SOTU, but real state's rights, etc.

Rabid Cougar
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Merriweather Lewis delivered Thomas Jefferson's letters to Congress (stand in for SOTU) in the years before he left on his trip. Jefferson hated the idea of the SOTU address.

Lewis and Jefferson were the only inhabitants of the White House during that time.
BQ78
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My buddy Stephen Puleo is coming out with one of the first biographies of Sumner in ages:



Steve will be kinder to him that I would be, based on his book on the Brooks caning. But I expect it to be good nonetheless (Steve also wrote the excellent Molasses Flood book, Dark Tide). Steve says he will highlight how Lincoln and Sumner taught each other lessons. I tell him, yeah Sumner taught Lincoln not to be an *******.
Sapper Redux
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I'll definitely check it out when I have a chance.
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