It really does nothing to prevent the QB from throwing the ball away. Worst case scenario, it's the same as taking the sack. Best case, the refs don't throw a flag.

What? Its a spot foul and the penalty yardage is therefore the difference between the LOS and the spot, plus loss of down.

"Is holding really a penalty? After all you get a do over so does it really matter?"

Proposed solution? Automatic 15yd or spot if longer?

TAMUallen said:

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Proposed solution? Automatic 15yd or spot if longer?

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5 yards from the spot the QB threw the ball.

UpDawg said:

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A.) that's why the result is the same as if they had taken the sack.
B.) that's why quarterbacks throw it even if it's clearly grounding. Brady said as much during the Bears/Lions game this past weekend - there's no harm in trying.

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It can be risky trying to throw right before getting sacked. You could get hit in the arm and fumble or throw a pick which happened to Marcel at least once this year

If intentional grounding is an auto 15 yard penalty or something then IMO it would also need to be replay the down to be consistent with other live ball penalties.

UpDawg said:

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B.) that's why quarterbacks throw it even if it's clearly grounding. Brady said as much during the Bears/Lions game this past weekend - there's no harm in trying.

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That's exactly my point. There is no negative incentive to prevent the QB from committing the penalty. It would be like if they just said offensive pass interference is an incomplete pass.

HoustonAg2106 said:

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TAMUallen said:

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Proposed solution? Automatic 15yd or spot if longer?

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Why? It's basically saying nice try QB but they got you and we are going to count the sack

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The thread is about if it is really a penalty at all. So my question, if unsatisfied, is what is the better solution? Maybe an auto 15 yards under 15 yards with loss of down or longer if the throw occurred deeper... seems reasonable for discussion

How is this even a topic??

You lose a down and lose yardage. How is that NOT a penalty? seems like punishment to me. The QB attempted an incomplete pass, and the refs go...yeah nice try. You were gonna sacked!

So yes it's a penalty. If there was no flag for intentional grounding, it would be an incomplete pass and you go back to the line of scrimmage.

Just need to change the name to 'grounding' since a spike is intentional with same result as an incompletion, yet legal, and most times a ball is thrown away, it is clearly intentional.

Then we'd see qb's just toss the ball at their own feet every time they're about to get sacked

You should have to play the next down with an OL as QB.

That'll teach em

I never understood why clocking the ball doesn't incur a penalty. QB is still in the pocket ball doesn't cross line of scrimmage by rule that's intentional grounding.

lil_frog8 said:

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I never understood why clocking the ball doesn't incur a penalty. QB is still in the pocket ball doesn't cross line of scrimmage by rule that's intentional grounding.

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Never thought about that

This. Specifically written.

JJxvi said:

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What? Its a spot foul and the penalty yardage is therefore the difference between the LOS and the spot, plus loss of down.

"Is holding really a penalty? After all you get a do over so does it really matter?"

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What he means is that it's a stupid penalty, because "spiking" the ball to stop the clock is really no different .

immediate forfeiture.

Did somebody mention grounding?!

No penalty for throwing it away. They should back up another five or ten yards.

F'd up rule for years. If you throw away the ball to avoid a sack, it's intentional grounding. Chunking it out of bounds into the stands is exactly that.

Agreed it should be +5 yards from the spot of the foul, in addition to loss of down, make it more punitive.

Along the same lines, why do they award a safety for intentional grounding or holding in the end zone, but they don't award a touchdown for defensive pass interference in the end zone? In both cases you are committing a penalty to avoid giving up points. It seems inconsistent.

Loss of down…

I think it's meant to not be punitive. For player (qb) safety they don't want them 2nd guessing, holding the ball, a taking a hit. They want the ball out of their hands. The carve out "outside the pocket and across the los" is a concession to the defense otherwise it's impossible to rush the passer.

Regarding grounding versus spiking the ball, isn't part of the intentional grounding rule that the QB is under duress and close to being sacked? A spike obviously doesn't have that.

Back in my day there was no "outside the tackle box" bs, flag that beech

Aggie_Fire said:

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How is this even a topic??

You lose a down and lose yardage. How is that NOT a penalty? seems like punishment to me. The QB attempted an incomplete pass, and the refs go...yeah nice try. You were gonna sacked!

So yes it's a penalty. If there was no flag for intentional grounding, it would be an incomplete pass and you go back to the line of scrimmage.

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Except they place the ball at the spot of the foul. And they call it a loss of down but it's the same "loss" as if you had taken the sack. So you might as well throw it and take your chances. It's not like an intentional grounding on 1st down costs you 2nd down and takes it to 3rd. It's absolutely the same result as if you had been sacked.

HoustonAg2106 said:

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TAMUallen said:

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Proposed solution? Automatic 15yd or spot if longer?

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Why? It's basically saying nice try QB but they got you and we are going to count the sack

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why intentionally ground when you can just do this

It's a good point OP makes but there's always the factor of will the refs call it since it's subjective if there is a receiver in the "area". Also seems like what uniform you are wearing matters sometimes … similar to targeting. Yes… I am still bitter about no targeting on Owens vs Miami. It was textbook targeting.

Intentional grounding is a FOUL. The PENALTY for intentional grounding is a loss of down at the spot of the foul. In the end zone, it is a safety. Technically, this actually falls under the category of an illegal forward pass. However, it is penalized differently than other such fouls.

I'm not sure what the OP is arguing.

If the passer is out of the pocket all he needs to do is get the ball beyond the LOS to avoid grounding. He can do this by throwing the ball in bounds or even out of bounds past the down marker. It can go either side of it -- this is one case where the line is extended beyond the field of play. Or, he can throw to an AREA occupied by an ELIGIBLE receiver. This is usually a call made by 2 officials -- the Referee who is watching the QB/passer and one of the wing officials (Line Judge or Head Line Judge) who is watching where the pass goes. Sometimes a deep official (FJ/SJ) will come in and tell the Referee that there was no receiver in the same zip code and if the QB was still in the pocket, the Referee might consider dropping the flag. THAT is why you often don't see a flag right away, particularly if watching on TV.

One of the challenges of making an intentional grounding call for the officials is, unlike fans watching the ball, the Referee is focused on the QB and doesn't follow the flight of the ball. The wing official isn't necessarily watching the QB but his keys. Once the pass is thrown, the Referee is watching for a potential roughing the passer foul.