Greatest job in all of sports?
Can have a crap games like last night and nobody notices then when he plays well he will surely be handed tons of credit.


I know they talk about it on the Ticket quite a bit and I think their right.

Terry is by far my most frustrating player.

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Greatest job in all of sports?
Can have a crap games like last night and nobody notices then when he plays well he will surely be handed tons of credit.


I know they talk about it on the Ticket quite a bit and I think their right.

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I could say the same about Jason Kidd.

Nobody says anything when this guy does absolutely nothing the past two years in the playoffs and regular season.

Nobody says anything when Chris Paul, Chauncey Billups and Tony Parker repeatedly score all over Kidd.

Now that we have upgraded our roster he gets all the credit in the world, and suddenly the last two years are erased from everyone's memory and the Kidd-Devin Harris trade is a good one.


The reason Terry gets a pass is that he's had huge playoff games in the past...and im betting he will have a couple of huge games in the near future.

Off the top of my head he had two huge games in the Finals against Miami.

Huge game 7 against Houston in 2005 and huge game 7 against San Antonio in 2006.

Last night, was the first time ive ever seen Jason Kidd play well in a Mavs uniform during a playoff game.

[This message has been edited by Kellso (edited 4/19/2010 9:20a).]

Kidd is a facilitator, while Harris is a scorer. When your offense is run through a power forward, you need a facilitator who can get him the ball. I think that is why everyone thinks the Kidd trade is turning out much better than originally thought.

Im tired of hearing that.

The Kidd trade has "turned out better" has nothing to do with Jason Kidd.

It has everything to do with adding Shawn Marion, Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood.

If the Kidd trade "turned out better" than our 2008 and 2009 teams wouldnt have been our two worst teams in the Cuban era.

You could have put Devin Harris on this roster and they still would have won at least 55 games (I think they would have won more, but thats a different debate).


Furthermore this team was only 32-21 before the trade, and heading (again) to a bottom 4 seed in the playoffs......so it wasn't like we were doing that great with Kidd this season.


Kidd is suddenly awesome again because we have tremendously upgraded the roster over the past two seasons:
Antoine Wright to Shawn Marion
Brandon Bass and Ryan Hollins to Brenden Haywood

Are gigantic upgrades
and then
Josh Howard to Caron Butler is also an upgrade.

+1 for Kellso's post.

Jason Kidd is a better PG for this roster than Deven Harris. IMO. Kidd deserves credit.

Quit hating on Jkidd. The guy deserves as much credit as anyone on the team.

What was devin harris up to all year? He was playing on a suck ass team that was battling to keep themselves from having the worst season in history.

All of those guys are made better because Kidd is here. For the roster we currently have, Kidd is a much better fit. We need a true PG much more than we need another scorer.

As for Terry, I think he has a similar role to many other guys out there who are the second or third scoring option on their team. They get tons of love when they blow up, but not too much heat when they have an off night.

Now if the Mavs had lost, I think you'd hear a lot more Terry haters. But it's not like he's made a habit of having bad playoff performances. His 5 points last night was a career playoff low.

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What was devin harris up to all year? He was playing on a suck ass team that was battling to keep themselves from having the worst season in history.

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Yet when Devin Harris was here we won 58, 60 and 67 games. With most of these same players we barely made the playoffs in 2008 and 2009 with Jason Kidd.

In 2007-08 we were 35-16 with Devin Harris.

Jason Kidd has played well this year. Its just disingenuous to give him all the credit for the past two months of this season (and lets be real thats the first time since 2006-07 the mavs have been an elite team)

we when we were nothing more than mediocre the last half of 2008, 2009 and the first half of this season.

When one looks at why we have done better this year its really because of Marion, Butler and Haywood.

I will give you a recent example of where we still miss someone with Devin Harris skill set.

About a month ago I went to a game where the Mavs played the Celtics.

The game went back and forth until the Celtics pulled away in the 4th quarter.

How did they pull away?

Rajon Rondo absolutley abused Jason Kidd.

Rondo got into the paint almost every single possession and either did three things:
1. Get a layup or scored in the paint
2. got fouled
3. dish it off once the defense collapse for a wide open shot or dunk.

On the defensive side, he completely shut down Jason Kidd, by playing suffocating perimter defense.

Devin Harris is not the facilitator that Jason kidd is, but he is a much better scorer and one of the top 5 perimeter defenders in the NBA.

When I was watching Rondo get in the paint EVERY SINGLE POSSESSION in the 4th quarter all I kept thinking about was that I wish we had anyone that could guard him.

On the flipside if a guy like Rondo has to guard someone that can also take him off the dribble...he is going to expend a lot more energy having to play defense.

The only defense Rondo had to play on Kidd was making sure he didnt hit his wide open three.

Kidd's stats speak for themself this year:

11th in the NBA in 3pt point shooting
5th in the NBA in assists
5th in the NBA in steals
1st among PG's in rebounds
2nd among PG's in blocks

On top of that, he has one of the higher bball IQ's around. You can point to a game where his lack of penetration or defense against a speedy PG cost us. For every game like that, you can point to multiple games where we won because of Kidd.

I'm not worried about Kidd getting abused by Parker because he doesn't gaurd Parker much.

You give credit to Harris for the 67 win season but it was being abused by Baron Davis that got us the exit in round 1.

I just dont get the Kidd hate at all. That guy has made the team so much much better than Harris did. Harris is also very fragile.

My how opinions change quick.


Kellso is on the money.

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I could say the same about Jason Kidd.

Nobody says anything when this guy does absolutely nothing the past two years in the playoffs and regular season.

Nobody says anything when Chris Paul, Chauncey Billups and Tony Parker repeatedly score all over Kidd.

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Kidd has taken way more than his share of the blame, on this board and in the media. I don't get why everyone focuses on quick PGs scoring a lot points on him while ignoring that he is an elite 2 guard defender. No one acknowledges how he held down Ginobili last night during the ~12 minutes they were matched up. At age 37 he shouldn't have to guard the quick PGs. Devin Harris shouldn't have had to try to guard Baron Davis in 2007, but that was the only option. Same with Kidd - not his fault that there is no one else on the roster. If Dirk was forced to guard Duncan every game because we had no defensive centers, would you ***** about Dirk's defense or blame management?

Were you one of the posters on here that said in 2008 that the Mavs would be completely irrelevant by now because the Kidd trade would cripple the franchise? Kidd is the best Mavs 3 point shooter of the Cuban era, and has enabled the Mavs to be a top 3 assist team instead of relying on isolation exclusively. Devin has developed into a poor man's Allen Iverson that can't stay healthy. Devin would fit great next to Kidd at the starting 2, but he has no business leading a team.

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If the Kidd trade "turned out better" than our 2008 and 2009 teams wouldnt have been our two worst teams in the Cuban era.

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Stackhouse and Howard needed to be traded regardless to get the team back to contender status. Cuban sat on the Stackhouse contract and gave Josh extra time to right himself last season, so the season was lost at the trade deadline. Wouldn't have mattered who was playing PG.

- In his six year career, Harris has only played 80 games in a season once. Kidd has done it nine times, including the past five years in a row.

- Even in Harris' All-Star year, Kidd had a better 3Pt%, more rebounds, assists, steals and blocks and fewer turnovers and fouls. In '09-'10, Kidd still leads in all of those categories, plus FG% and FT%.

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I just dont get the Kidd hate at all. That guy has made the team so much much better than Harris did. Harris is also very fragile.

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Yet, this hasnt been shown in the won loss column at all.

This has been the Mavs record since we acquired Jason Kidd.

2008
16-14

We were 35-17 before the Devin Harris trade.
7th seed in the West and we made the playoffs in the last week of the season.

2008-09
50-32
6th seed

Again...made the playoffs the last week of the season.

2009-10
32-20

Since acquiring Brendan Haywood and Caron Butler we have gone 23-7.

The three seasons we had Devin Harris we went

58-24
60-22 Won the Western Conference
67-15
35-17


We have a very solid team this year.....but if one looks at our won/loss average the past two years after we acquired Kidd, and how much we won before he came here......

then its pretty damn obvious that the reason we've improved so much is the addition of Caron Butler, Brendan Haywood and Shawn Marion.


One thing that bothers me about Maverick fans is that once a guy leaves.....he was a bum and the new guy is so much better than him because Cuban is always right.

Ive seen it with Nash, Finley, Josh Howard, Devin Harris and so on.


This Mavericks team is loaded. You could put Devin Harris on this team and this team would still win 55 games. It would probably win more.

Last night was the first time Ive ever seen Kidd have a halfway decent game in the playoffs wearing a Mavs uniform.

[This message has been edited by Kellso (edited 4/19/2010 1:59p).]

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I just dont get the Kidd hate at all. That guy has made the team so much much better than Harris did. Harris is also very fragile.

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The Mavs won 55 games this year.

Ive seen the Mavs have seasons were they won 57, 60, 58, 60 and 67 wins.

Devin was the point for the 60 and 67 win teams.

Here is how the guy "that has made Dallas so much better" has performed in the playoffs the last two years.

I will also show the opposing point guards.

Before I show all this. One of the reasons the Mavs won so much with Devin Harris, is that the opposing point guards had to work much harder to defend Devin,

Harris was much better at keeping players out of the paint, which Kidd cant do at all.
------------------------------------------------
2008 New Orleans Hornets

Game 1: Kidd 11 points 9 ast, 9 rebounds (Loss)
Paul- 35 points 10 ast 3 rebounds

Game 2: Kidd 7 points 8 ast 4 rebounds (Loss)
Paul- 32 points 17 ast 5 rebounds

Game 3: Kidd 8 points 5 ast 11 rebounds (win)
Paul 16 points 10 ast 2 rebounds

Game 4: Kidd 3 points 3 ast 3 rebounds (loss)
Paul 16 points 8 ast 7 rebounds

Game 5: Kidd 14 points 9 asts 4 rebounds (loss)
Paul 24 points 15 ast 11 rebounds




2009 San Antonio Spurs
Game 1: Kidd 4 points 5 ast 8 rebounds (win)
Parker 24 points 8 ast 4 rebounds

Game 2: Kidd 14 points 5 ast 4 rebounds (loss)
Parker 38 points 8 ast 4 rebounds

Game 3: Kidd 3 points 6 ast 8 rebounds (win)
Parker 12 points 3 ast 4 rebounds

Game 4: Kidd 17 points 7 ast 7 rebounds (win)
Parker 43 points 3 ast 5 rebounds

Game 5: Kidd 12 points 5 ast 3 rebounds (win)
Parker 26 points 12 ast 4 rebounds



2009 Denver Nuggets
Game 1: Kidd 15 points 4 ast 4 rebounds (loss)
Billups 6 points 6 ast 3 rebounds

Game 2: Kidd 4 points 7 asts 6 rebounds (loss)
Billups 18 points 8 ast 3 rebounds

Game 3: Kidd 13 points 5 ast 5 rebounds (loss)
Billups 32 points 3 ast 3 rebounds

Game 4: Kidd 13 points 10 ast 10 rebounds (win)
Billups 24 points 7 ast 2 reounds

Game 5: Kidd 19 points 9 asts 3 rebounds (loss)
Billups 28 points 12 asts 7 rebounds

Let me ask you guys a question:

If we didnt have Shawn Marion, Caron Butler, or Brendan Haywood

Do you think this Mavs team with Jason Kidd running the show would be a #2 seed with 55 wins?

or do you think they would be a 7 or 8 seed if in the playoffs at all?

We werent that great this season and then something happened around the trade deadline....and poof we were suddenly a really good team again.

I dont know what it was, but I think it traces back a few years ago when we got Jason Kidd by getting rid of Devin Harrs.

Its obvious how much better Kidd has made this team.

We have a baller in the wings for when Kidd is done anyways (At least for the defense, I doubt he'll ever be the facilitator)

Devin Harris was barely getting starter minutes when we went to the finals. He played a big role in the San Antonio series and that was it.
He got utterly exposed against Baron Davis after piloting the team to 67 wins.

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He got utterly exposed against Baron Davis after piloting the team to 67 wins.

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Just the same as Jason Kidd in our last three playoff series against Denver, San Antonio, and New Orleans.

Just look at the stats.

Most of his playoff performances the last two years have been utterly pathetic.

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We were 35-17 before the Devin Harris trade.
7th seed in the West and we made the playoffs in the last week of the season.

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Then Devin got hurt and missed 6 weeks, the Gasol trade happened, the Shaq trade happened, and the Celtics continued to separate themselves as being far superior to anyone in the West. The 35-17 team was trending downward, as the isolation offense had been exposed and the team was quitting on the coach.

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We have a very solid team this year.....but if one looks at our won/loss average the past two years after we acquired Kidd, and how much we won before he came here......

then its pretty damn obvious that the reason we've improved so much is the addition of Caron Butler, Brendan Haywood and Shawn Marion.

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You could also look at Diop going from being a solid starting center to sucking, at the mental grind of Avery finally wearing out the team, at Stackhouse falling to oblivion and not being traded, at Howard becoming an injury prone basket case, etc. No way you can just point to the Kidd trade alone as being the reason for the decline while assuming keeping Harris would have kept them elite.

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Last night was the first time Ive ever seen Kidd have a halfway decent game in the playoffs wearing a Mavs uniform.

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Kidd played great against the Spurs last year. He was definitely horrible against the Nuggets and Hornets. The Nuggets series was very disappointing.

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Devin was the point for the 60 and 67 win teams.

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No he wasn't. He was the JJ Barea of the 06 team, and Terry was the still the primary PG for the 07 team.

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Let me ask you guys a question:

If we didnt have Shawn Marion, Caron Butler, or Brendan Haywood

Do you think this Mavs team with Jason Kidd running the show would be a #2 seed with 55 wins?

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No, but that doesn't mean that they would be 55+ wins with Harris alone. Again, the Mavs needed to make these moves regardless of the PG situation. I would love to have kept Harris as the starting off guard to complement Kidd, but this team is better off with Kidd alone.


[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 4/19/2010 2:44p).]

I don't think anyone is saying that Devin Harris is a bum. Jason Kidd is better for the Mavericks. By all reports, he's a leader in the locker room and on the court, which is crucial for a team that was hurting in terms of morale for 4 years after the 06 loss. I think you miss what he brings to the table when you discuss him solely in terms of statistics. He make Dirk a better player, and he's a large part of the reason Marion, Butler, and Haywood have fit in with this team so nicely.

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Kidd played great against the Spurs last year.

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No he did not.

We beat the Spurs last year because of Dirk, Josh Howard, and Ginobli being out.



Tony Parker in particular murdered Jason Kidd and I got the pleasure of watching Parker get into the lane whenever he wanted to.

Averaging 10 points and 5 assists while your counterpart averages 29 points and 5 assists.....is not my definition of playing great.

JJ Barea was a bigger impact player against the Spurs than Kidd was.

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No he wasn't. He was the JJ Barea of the 06 team, and Terry was the still the primary PG for the 07 team.

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Devin Harris was the primary starter at point guard during the 2006-07 season.

He started 61 games at point during that season

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/devin_harris/career_stats.html



[This message has been edited by Kellso (edited 4/19/2010 5:31p).]

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Tony Parker in particular murdered Jason Kidd and I got the pleasure of watching Parker get into the lane whenever he wanted to.

Averaging 10 points and 5 assists while your counterpart averages 29 points and 5 assists.....is not my definition of playing great.

JJ Barea was a bigger impact player against the Spurs than Kidd was.

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If your definition of played great is just looking at points, then yeah Barea was better and Kidd is one of the worst PGs in the league.

Kidd made Parker work hard for most of his points, more-so than anyone else would have made him work. The strategy was to cut off the passing lanes and make Parker exude maximum effort. Sure he got plenty of easy baskets, but he was constantly having to give full effort and made some amazing plays. He gets plenty of credit for playing at an elite level. But by the end of the games that were still close in crunch time, Parker was completely gassed and his stats reflect that. His fatigue was a big reason the Spurs lost those close games.

Kidd's line in game 5 was very good. Here's what I wrote about that game last year:

"0 turnovers, 3 steals
12 points on 4-9 3Pt, all open looks

Guarded Parker most of the game and effectively wore him down, as the strategy dictated

It was funny in the last few minutes how everyone was desperately trying to get the ball to him to avoid a turnover. I cringed every time anyone else touched it in the open court."

If you watched game 5 and concluded that Parker murdered Kidd then you are not paying attention at all to the details of the game. You probably also think that Kobe always murdered Bruce Bowen because his total points stats always looked good.

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We beat the Spurs last year because of Dirk, Josh Howard, and Ginobli being out.

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Explain yourself - Dirk's stats shows that it was one of his lowest scoring series ever.

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Devin Harris was the primary starter at point guard during the 2006-07 season.

He started 61 games at point during that season

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/devin_harris/career_stats.html

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No where in that link does it say Devin was the primary starting PG. Terry started every game as PG. Harris was the starting off guard, and was replaced as a starter by Devean George/Greg Buckner 25% of the time depending on match-ups. Terry was the primary ball handler and led the team in assists. The next year they transitioned Terry to 6th Man and Harris to starting PG, and the assist numbers reflect that.

Jason Kidd was not good last year against the Spurs......PERIOD.

Tony Parker was great in last years series.

If the Spurs have Ginobli, they beat us in 6 games if Tony Parker is averaging 30 points a game.

and guys....this is a classic example of what Im talking about when it comes to Jason Kidd getting credit for chit that no one else in the league does.

Be honest with your self, if any other NBA superstar had that sort of stat line that Kidd had against the Spurs (10 points and 5 assists while his counterpart averages 29 and 5)....he would be called a bum, overated and complete fraud.

Yet here you are making excuse after excuse for Jason Kidd when anyone with two eyes can notice that Kidd didnt do a whole lot and the biggest reasons we beat the Spurs a year ago was Dirk Nowitiski and Josh Howard.


Internetfan02 is the exact same type of fan that will give Jason kidd the credit for the Mavs having the #2 seed in this years playoff, while not admitting that the buy far the biggest reason for this years success is the addition of Marion, Butler and Haywood.

All the while completely ignoring the Mavs record this season before the trade with Kidd 32-20).

The Mavs record last season with Jason Kidd (50-32).

The Mavs record two years ago after the Jason Kidd trade (16-14).

The Mavs record before the Jason Kidd trade (35-17)

The Mavs record the year before the Jason Kidd trade (67-15)

The Mavs record two years before the Jason Kidd trade (60-22, Western Conference Champs)

Internetfan, prepare yourself for the headshot.

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Be honest with your self, if any other NBA superstar had that sort of stat line that Kidd had against the Spurs (10 points and 5 assists while his counterpart averages 29 and 5)....he would be called a bum, overated and complete fraud.

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Your premise is flawed. Kidd is not a superstar, and no one pretends that he is. The Mavs have had exactly one superstar for the entire decade. Kidd has completely adapted his game to become a role player. Devin Harris will never be a superstar either - he was best on the Mavs as a 3rd option and has a chance in the future to be a solid 3rd option on a contender. They don't need Kidd to be a superstar - they need a leadership, toughness, timely shooting, facilitation, and high BBIQ in crunch time. Kidd is now one of the "No stats all-stars" as described by Michael Lewis while studying Shane Battier.

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Yet here you are making excuse after excuse for Jason Kidd when anyone with two eyes can notice that Kidd didnt do a whole lot and the biggest reasons we beat the Spurs a year ago was Dirk Nowitiski and Josh Howard.

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You are babbling now. I am not making excuses - just explaining to you how Kidd impacts a series without lighting up the stats. Speaking of that, explain with your logic how Dirk was a main reason the Mavs won when he couldn't even average 20 points a game?

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Internetfan02 is the exact same type of fan that will give Jason kidd the credit for the Mavs having the #2 seed in this years playoff, while not admitting that the buy far the biggest reason for this years success is the addition of Marion, Butler and Haywood.

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I admitted it twice already on this thread, and I'll admit it for you again if you keep asking. My point is that Marion, Butler and Haywood were needed regardless of who is the starting PG.

Jason Terry?

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One thing that bothers me about Maverick fans is that once a guy leaves.....he was a bum and the new guy is so much better than him because Cuban is always right.

Ive seen it with Nash, Finley, Josh Howard, Devin Harris and so on.

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Are you high? Mavs fans were furious when Nash and Harris left. Everyone knew why Finley was cut. Cuban gets almost as much criticism as Jerry Jones.

Why wouldn't we be excited when we trade an immature pothead malcontent for Caron Butler and Haywood?

And Jason Terry still gets to play his whole career in shadows.

Josh Howard was considered a bum LONG before he left.

I love how this whole argument is based on gaurding Parker, Chris Paul, and Chancey(sp) Billups. 3 of the best PG's in the league specially when you are talking about scoring PG's. If we railed on evey PG who didn't stop those 3 guys, there wouldn't be anyone left.