Wasn't this topic about Jason Terry?

[This message has been edited by rasher (edited 4/20/2010 9:20a).]

And Again Devon got thrashed by Baron Davis. He looked much worse than Kid did against TP last year.

Terry is a boring subject. He is and always will be just a guy that punched another man in the nuts on national TV.

Terry is a boring subject. He is and always will be just a guy that punched another man in the nuts on national TV.

Is Devin a better scorer than Kidd? Hell Yes

Does Kidd distribute/run an offense better than Harris? Hell Yes

I think Kidd is a much better PG for this current group of players. However I still have to disagree with the trade simply because of the two first round picks we gave up.

This trade was bad at first because at the time Harris was the ticket to beating the spurs since they were on top of the league. Now as it turns out, Kidd may be what we need to beat the lakers. With Roy out, parker not himself, no Chris Paul. The Mavs don't have to go through an athletic point guard that could give Kidd fits. At the time it was a bad trade. As time goes by and the team has been retooled to help Kidd, it's not so bad anymore.

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This trade was bad at first because at the time Harris was the ticket to beating the spurs since they were on top of the league. Now as it turns out, Kidd may be what we need to beat the lakers. With Roy out, parker not himself, no Chris Paul. The Mavs don't have to go through an athletic point guard that could give Kidd fits. At the time it was a bad trade. As time goes by and the team has been retooled to help Kidd, it's not so bad anymore.

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I would agree with this.

If we make it to the finals I will completely eat crow about Jason Kidd.

devin harris dosent bump the atlanta coach to turn the m omentum of a game.

devin harris dosent hit a lot of clutch threes.

devin harris DIDNT have chemistry with dirk - the most important point of all. nothing else matters.

Well I take the opposite approach. I will tell you what skills Devin Harris brought to the Mavs and why the Mavs won so many games with him in the lineup. Way more games then they have won with Jason Kidd.

First off...let me say a disclaimer. I was not a huge Devin Harris fan when he was here. I was expecting him to be as good as Chris Paul or Deron Williams and that has always dissapointed me....but i still recognize what this guy brought to the team and how he helped the Mavs win games.

1. Devin was one of the best perimeter defenders in the entire NBA. Before the 05-6 season I had never in my life witness the Mavs be called a good perimeter defensive team.

Perimeter defense isnt about getting steals....its about keeping guys out of the lane and forcing guys into jumpshots.

At least two or three times a game Harris would force the opposing point into a charge.

2. Ability to create his own shot. Jason Kidd cannot create his own shot. The only thing Kidd can really score on is a wide open three.

even now...when Kidd gets into the lane, he is too scared to take the shot and almost always looks to pass it

If you have a player that can constantly get in the paint and break down the defense (ala tony Parker, Chris Paul, Kevin Johnson) it pretty much leads to three things:
1. Layups (which Devin got a lot of)
2. easy buckets for teamates
3. fouls

3. Ability to attack the opposing players. This is the one area that Kidd lacks in.
If you are playing a Deron Williams, Chauncey Billups or Chris Paul the biggest weapon you have is someone that can attack them and make them work on the defensive side of the ball.

The last two years Ive watched these guys not have to expend a whole lot of energy on defense, and in turn just do whatever they wanted on the offensive side of the ball.

These elite point guards had to work twice as hard when Harris was defending them.


You could put Devin Harris on this current Mavs team and they would still be very good.

If we had Rajon Rondo we would be hands down the best team in the league.

Its easy to say someone like Chris Paul, Deron Williams or Steve Nash.

Rondo does not have the passing ability of a Jason Kidd, but he can finish in the paint and he is probably the very best perimeter defensive player in the entire NBA.


Jason Kidd skill set does work well with this team......but its solely because of the addition of Butler, Haywood and Marion.

This team under Jason Kidd was going nowhere before the trade.

It was going no where before the Kidd trade either.

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It was going no where before the Kidd trade either.

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http://espn.go.com/nba/teams/schedule?team=dal

Thats a complete misconception...and the precise reason people felt they werent going anywhere was that Devin Harris was hurt.

35-17 is a winning percentage of 67%


which averaged out to a full season comes to a record of

55-27.

The Mavericks were doing fine in 2007-08 and after the trade for Kidd became a pretty bad team finishing the year 16-14 and then getting destroyed by the Hornets.


Furthermore, Devin Harris was hurt in a win over the Denver Nuggets.

After this game their record was 30-13.
http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=280127006


With Harris out of the lineup is when the Mavs really started to stuggle going 5-4. Harris last game was a Dallas win over Portland that made their record 35-17.

To Break down the 2007-08 season

With Devin Harris: 30-13
Devin Harris injured: 5-4

with Jason Kidd: 16-14


The trade was obviously not a good one. The reason the Mavs are good this year is the addition of Marion, Haywood and Butler.

The reason im going on an on about this is that it gets tiring listening to people try to revise history.

"Man...that Mark Cuban is a genius! That Jason Kidd for Devin Harris trade turned out to be the right move...it was a great trade!"

No it was not a great trade.

You dont go from being

67-15 in 2007-07
30-13 with Devin Harris in 2007-08

to barely a .500 team that gets destroyed in the first round and call that a succesful trade.

Last year we had our lowest amount of wins of any team since Cuban bought the team.

This season the Mavs were 32-20 and heading towards another 6, 7 or 8 seed.

The sole reason the Devin Harris-Kidd trade hasnt been a complete disaster is that we have acquired Shawn Marion, Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood.

You put a player that last year averaged 21 ppg, 7 assists and is also a great perimeter defender on this team....and they are easily still an elite team.

You act like the Kidd trade was the only variable.

What about Howard going from being an All Star to a team cancer?

Wasn't the Mavs schedule set up this year with more tough games at the front end vs the back end(Where we had the new players)?

What about the difference in the number of quality teams in the West now than in 2006?

What about Stackhouse going from a scoring threat off the bench to a guy who brought nothing in about 1.5 seasons?


etc...
etc...
etc...





[This message has been edited by keithd03 (edited 4/20/2010 5:04p).]

Your claim about the Mavs being a good perimeter defensive team is so ridiculous. The Mavs go obliterated by the a perimeter based team in Golden State after winning 67 games and the main problem in that series was Devin's inability to guard Baron Davis. You have not acknowledged that. Say what you want but Devin was never giving fits to anybody other than the Spurs. It was his calling card and the only value he ever added to the franchise. The Mavs won 67 games because Dirk was the MVP, they lost to the Warriors because they couldn't guard guards.

[This message has been edited by t - cam (edited 4/20/2010 7:20p).]

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Your claim about the Mavs being a good perimeter defensive team is so ridiculous. The Mavs go obliterated by the a perimeter based team in Golden State after winning 67 games and the main problem in that series was Devin's inability to guard Baron Davis. You have not acknowledged that. Say what you want but Devin was never giving fits to anybody other than the Spurs. It was his calling card and the only value he ever added to the franchise. The Mavs won 67 games because Dirk was the MVP, they lost to the Warriors because they couldn't guard guards.

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Do you even watch the Mavericks? Serious question.

Or did you just become a fan in the last two years?

Dirk's MVP season was one of his weaker statistical years. He was was just given the award because he was the best player on the best team.
He's had about 4 or 5 seasons that were better than his 2006-07 season.


The Mavs had never, ever been a good perimeter defensive team until the year they went to the Finals.

Devin Harris didnt just help the Mavs beat the Spurs....his skill set helped the Mavs beat the entire NBA.

That is evidenced by winning 58,60 and 67 games and making it to the NBA Finals.

This is evidenced by being 30-13 in the 2007-08 season with Harris running the show, and the Mavs being 21-18 without him.

This is evidenced by the Mavs having their two lowest win totals wiht Jason Kidd running the show.

It wasnt just Dirk...and it wasnt an accident they won so many games.


By the 2008-09 season Devin Harris was turning into our second best player, and at the time the trade for Jason Kidd was disastrous....especially giving up two draft picks for him.


When we had Devin Harris you didnt see guys like Andre Miller scoring 50 freaking points in a game, Aarron Brooks killing us every time we play the Rockets, or us losing the point guard battle in every single playoff game the last two years.

Oh....Im sure you guys wanna act like the Andre Miller and Aaron Brooks things never happened because it might reflect poorly on Jason Kidd.


For you Kidd lovers, please answer my question from above.

Where would this Mavs team be without Shawn Marion, Caron Butler, and Brendan Haywod?

Do you think we would be the #2 seed?

[This message has been edited by Kellso (edited 4/21/2010 7:10a).]

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Andre Miller(notes) missed badly on his first shot of the game. That was about the only thing that went wrong for Portland’s point guard.

Miller scored a career-high 52 points, including 25 in the fourth quarter and overtime, and Juwan Howard(notes) hit a jumper with 44.8 seconds left to lift the Trail Blazers past the Dallas Mavericks 114-112 Saturday night.

On Portland’s second possession of the game, Miller’s 15-foot jumper missed the rim the completely and hit the backboard. That was one of his few misfires as Miller finished 22 of 31 from the floor and 7 of 8 from the foul line.

“I just wanted to stay aggressive,” Miller said. “I didn’t look at it as scoring the ball, but just going out and making plays and being the point guard. The shots came and since they were going in, I kept shooting.”

Miller fell two points shy of the Portland team record set by Damon Stoudamire(notes). Milwaukee rookie Brandon Jennings(notes) has the most points in an NBA game this season with 55 on Nov. 14.

Denver’s Carmelo Anthony(notes) had the previous 50-point game in the NBA, scoring 50 against the New York Knicks on Nov. 27.

Miller came in averaging 12.6 points per game and his season high had been 28.

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Unfortunately Ive seen way too many games like this from the Aaron Brooks and Andre Millers of the world since we've gotten Jason Kidd.

Baron Davis vs. Devin Harris:
game 1: 33 Pts. 14 Rebs 8 assists
game 2: 13 Pts. 1 Reb 2 assists
game 3: 24 pts. 0 reb 5 assists
game 4: 33 pts. 8 rebs 4 assists
game 5: 27 pts. 4 rebs 9 assists
game 6: 20 pts. 10 rebs 6 assits

avgs: 25 pts. 6.16 rebs 5.6 assits

I realize you are yet to acknowledge this series but it just seems silly. Kid was a trade for playoff success as nobody thought the Mavs were going to be a playoff contender the year he was traded.

quote:

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Your claim about the Mavs being a good perimeter defensive team is so ridiculous. The Mavs go obliterated by the a perimeter based team in Golden State after winning 67 games and the main problem in that series was Devin's inability to guard Baron Davis. You have not acknowledged that. Say what you want but Devin was never giving fits to anybody other than the Spurs. It was his calling card and the only value he ever added to the franchise. The Mavs won 67 games because Dirk was the MVP, they lost to the Warriors because they couldn't guard guards

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T-Cam,

Im going to show you how absolutely ridiculous your comment was.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/team-comparison-per-game/sort/avgPointsOpponent/seasontype/2

These are the NBA defensive rankings.

Im going to use points allowed and opponent field goal percentage.

Opponents field goal percentage is a direct tie to how good your perimeter defense is.


There is a direct correlation in the Mavs going from being a bad defensive team to a good defensive team in their best years....back to being a mediocre defensive team.

The Mavs defensive rankings are directly tied to the additions of Devin Harris, Erick Dampier and Josh Howard.

The Mavs get rid of Devin Harris...and all of a sudden they are back to being a mediocre defensive team.



2009-10
Points allowed: Mavericks 15
Field Goal Percentage: Mavericks 15

2008-09
Points Allowed: Mavericks 15th
Field Goal percentage: Mavericks 12th

2007-08
Points Allowed: Mavericks 6th
Field Goal Percentage: Mavericks 4th


2006-07
Points Allowed: Mavericks 4th
Field Goal Percentage: Mavericks 7th

2005-06
Points Allowed: Mavericks 7th
Field Goal Percentage: 10th


2004-05
Points Allowed: 14th
Field Goal Percentage: 8th

2003-04
Points Allowed: Mavericks 28th
Field Goal Percentage: Mavericks 27th

2002-03
Points Allowed: Mavericks 16th
Field Goal Percentage: 12th

2001-02
Points Allowed: Mavericks 28th
Field Goal Percentage: 19th

So the reason we were eliminated by the warriors had nothing to do with Baron Davis ripping a new in Devin Harris?

Good to know, you have officially become a stat nerd that is unable to look with his own eyes at what reality is.

You point to the Avery years for defensive rankings. It was Avery not Devin Harris that made us care about defense.

quote:

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Kid was a trade for playoff success as nobody thought the Mavs were going to be a playoff contender the year he was traded.

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What playoff sucess has Jason Kidd brought us??????

We had playoff sucess with Devin Harris.

If we have sucess this year its because of Marion, Butler and Haywood.

Jason Kidd has been murdered in almost every single playoff game he been with the Mavericks.

How the hell can anyone argue with these numbers.

I wouldnt have a problem with the opposing point guard scoring so much....if our point was also scoring.

But when these guys are scoring 30 points a game and the best Kidd can do is 10 or 12 points....then it shouldnt be a surprise that we get our asses kicked in these series.

2008 New Orleans Hornets

Game 1: Kidd 11 points 9 ast, 9 rebounds (Loss)
Paul- 35 points 10 ast 3 rebounds

Game 2: Kidd 7 points 8 ast 4 rebounds (Loss)
Paul- 32 points 17 ast 5 rebounds

Game 3: Kidd 8 points 5 ast 11 rebounds (win)
Paul 16 points 10 ast 2 rebounds

Game 4: Kidd 3 points 3 ast 3 rebounds (loss)
Paul 16 points 8 ast 7 rebounds

Game 5: Kidd 14 points 9 asts 4 rebounds (loss)
Paul 24 points 15 ast 11 rebounds




2009 San Antonio Spurs
Game 1: Kidd 4 points 5 ast 8 rebounds (win)
Parker 24 points 8 ast 4 rebounds

Game 2: Kidd 14 points 5 ast 4 rebounds (loss)
Parker 38 points 8 ast 4 rebounds

Game 3: Kidd 3 points 6 ast 8 rebounds (win)
Parker 12 points 3 ast 4 rebounds

Game 4: Kidd 17 points 7 ast 7 rebounds (win)
Parker 43 points 3 ast 5 rebounds

Game 5: Kidd 12 points 5 ast 3 rebounds (win)
Parker 26 points 12 ast 4 rebounds



2009 Denver Nuggets
Game 1: Kidd 15 points 4 ast 4 rebounds (loss)
Billups 6 points 6 ast 3 rebounds

Game 2: Kidd 4 points 7 asts 6 rebounds (loss)
Billups 18 points 8 ast 3 rebounds

Game 3: Kidd 13 points 5 ast 5 rebounds (loss)
Billups 32 points 3 ast 3 rebounds

Game 4: Kidd 13 points 10 ast 10 rebounds (win)
Billups 24 points 7 ast 2 reounds

Game 5: Kidd 19 points 9 asts 3 rebounds (loss)
Billups 28 points 12 asts 7 rebounds

You prove to be an idiot once again.

You point to the Spurs series last yaer:

Did Kid win the series over Parker?
That is who got the uper hand.

Devin Harris was only a major part in one series win in his career. He played no roll in beating Phoenix or Memphis that year.

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Did Kid win the series over Parker?
That is who got the uper hand.

Devin Harris was only a major part in one series win in his career. He played no roll in beating Phoenix or Memphis that year.

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So let me get this straight...Although Kidd got absolutely abused by Parker last year, he gets credit for the Mavs winning, Devin doesn't get credit for the playoff success the Mavs had when he was at the point?

Great logic.

If we didn't get Butler, Haywood, and Butler we would not be the 2 seed. We would probably be somewhere between 4 and 7.

Now, if we had the same team all year, but insert Harris, I don't think we would have as many wins as we had with Kidd.

If you watch the games you can tell that Kidd is running the show for the majority of the time he is.

quote:

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So the reason we were eliminated by the warriors had nothing to do with Baron Davis ripping a new in Devin Harris?

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No,

The biggest reasons was Dirk only average 19 points a game.

There have been plenty of guards that have scored a lot of points on us, and we have still won the series.

The other was Avery Johnson being completely out coached by Don Nelson in that series.

quote:

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You point to the Avery years for defensive rankings. It was Avery not Devin Harris that made us care about defense.

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What an asinine statement. So it has nothing to do with the players....its all Avery Johnson.

Newsflash: Avery is not the one out there playing defense.


Do you really think you could plug JJ Barea or Nick Van Exel, in Devin Harris spot and the Mavs would have still be one of the better defensive teams in the league?


You just said that Devin Harris had nothing to do with the Mavs being a good perimeter defensive team and I just showed you how completely wrong you are.

The Mavs suck on defense.

Mavs Acquire Devin Harris, Dampier, Josh Howard

Suddenly they dont suck on defense.

Now for Some reason they are finally able to beat the Spurs and actually make it to the Finals.

Next season they have the 6th best record of all time.

Now they trade Devin Harris for Jason Kidd.

They suddenly become a mediocre defensive team again.

It has to be a complete coincidence that they have their worst record the last two seasons.

T-Cam,

What else do you want me to provide to prove that Im right and you are wrong?

Ive provided The Mavs won loss record before and after the Devin Harris/Kidd trade.

Ive provided the Mavs defensive rankings before Devin Harris, with Devin Harris and after Devin Harris.

Ive provided Jason Kidd's pitiful playoff performaces the past three series against New Orleans, Denver and San Antonio.

You are not bringing any numbers to support any of your arguments.

Your only argument is the Golden State Series and Baron Davis, and my counter to that is that ive watched Jason Kidd get destroyed in the LAST THREE PLAYOFF SERIES.



[This message has been edited by Kellso (edited 4/21/2010 9:10a).]

And I honestly don't remember the details of the series last year, but I would bet that Kidd didn't gaurd Parker one on one that often. I remember Howard, Terry, JJ, etc... gaurding him more often than Kidd.

"Now for Some reason they are finally able to beat the Spurs and actually make it to the Finals.

Next season they have the 6th best record of all time.

Now they trade Devin Harris for Jason Kidd"

So again, you ignore the fact that we were a first round exit with Harris before we made the Kidd trade.

quote:

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So the reason we were eliminated by the warriors had nothing to do with Baron Davis ripping a new in Devin Harris

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quote:

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I realize you are yet to acknowledge this series but it just seems silly. Kid was a trade for playoff success as nobody thought the Mavs were going to be a playoff contender the year he was traded.

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Im gonna reiterate again how ridiculous and asinine I think T-Cam's argument is.

His sole argument is that Devin Harris was a bum that we needed to get rid of because of how well Baron Davis performed in the 2007 playoff series.

This a dumb argument in favor of Jason Kidd, and the reason is that NOTHING HAS CHANGED In fact....its gotten worse.

The Good Point Guards in the Western Conference are still killing us in our last three playoff series.

Chris Paul, Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups have all taken turns scoring at will all over Jason Kidd....while Kidd responds with about 8 to 10 points a game.

These are what these guards have averaged in their playoff series against us:

Chris Paul: 24.6 points and 12 assists
Tony Parker: 30 points and 5 assists
Chauncey Billups: 23.6 points and 7 assists


T-Cam,

Let me enlighten you on how to argue a point.

If you are going to argue a certain point, you need to make sure that the addition of Jason Kidd makes that certain point go away, instead of staying the same or getting worse.

[This message has been edited by Kellso (edited 4/21/2010 9:47a).]

I think what you are failing to realize is that you give all credit to Harris, who was a bit player in the finals run avg. just over 20 minutes a game that year. He piloted the biggest colapse by any team in NBA history the following year. Something had to be done and the thought that we needed a better floor general rather than scorer was had by many in the media as well as experts around the league.

To blame Dirk is silly as he was getting tripple teamed against the Warriors and your boy Devin was unable to take advantage due to the fact that he was wore out on the other end of the floor.

I am trying to make it less black and white than you are. You make it seem like the only thing that changed over the years was the Kid trade but fail to realize that Josh Howard would never repeat his contributions and that Jerry Stackhouse fell of the globe during that time.

I think he's pointing out that you hate Kidd because you say that he's been dominated in the playoffs by opposing PGs, and you laud Harris for playing well against the Spurs. However, you discount the fact that he, like Kidd, was arguably dominated by a top level scoring PG in the playoffs.

========

quote:

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...

After Johnson was fired following that first-round loss (to the New Orleans Hornets) in the '08 playoffs, Johnson tried to publicly distance from the trade. But the deal was made in an attempt to save Johnson's job after his controlling ways alienated his key players, especially Dirk Nowitzki, who was frustrated that the Mavs had become a grind-it-out, half-court team that had to work hard for every shot.

The logic was that Johnson, who had given Harris some play-calling responsibility early in the season only to yank it away, would trust Kidd to run the offense. That never happened. And it was obvious it wouldn't when Kidd watched the first crunch-time moments after the trade from the bench in a loss to the San Antonio Spurs.

The trade did work for Dirk, though.

Nowitzki respected Harris' ability and liked him personally, but he longed to play with a pass-first point guard. Harris is at his best creating his own shot off the dribble, not setting up his teammates. Kidd ranked fourth in NBA history in assists at the time of the trade and has since moved up a couple of notches to second.

If Kidd didn't come to Dallas, it's unlikely that Nowitzki would be so firm about wanting to be a Maverick for life. With Kidd around, the big German doesn't have to carry the burden of being the Mavs' primary leader and playmaker, roles that never came naturally to him.

"The reality is that we had a whole lot of scoring and our best passer was Dirk," Mavs president of basketball operations Donnie Nelson said. "He's the guy you want taking the shots, not creating shots for other folks. That was a group that was missing a quarterback in the worst way."

Added Nowitzki, who signed off on the deal before it went down: "We wanted a little more leadership in the backcourt, somebody who knows how to lead a team, pass the ball, get everybody involved. We got one of the best passers there ever was."

The Mavericks got off to a slow start last season under new coach Rick Carlisle, but their performance improved significantly once Carlisle handed the play-calling reins to Kidd in the middle of the season. Cuban and Co. were encouraged enough by the progress to make re-signing Kidd the top priority of the summer.

...

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from the December 2009 article "Harris-for-Kidd pays delayed dividends" on ESPN

the author of the above goes on to speculate that Shawn Marion came to Dallas because he wanted to play with the future Hall-of-Famer Kidd. Same story for Gooden and Tim Thomas.

Kellso,
you said Dirk was a main reason we beat the Spurs last year, but then said that he was the reason we lost to Golden State. He had the same PPG in each series at 19. How could that be? Maybe intangibles that go beyond basic stats make a big difference?

Golden St is a poor defensive team

San Antonio is a great defensive team.


Dirk has normally torched poor defensive teams and against a squad like Denver, Phoenix or Golden St we needed Dirk to score 25-30 to win....and Dirk usually delivers way more than that.

Against a team that slows the game down, limits the possessions and plays great defense like the Spurs, 20 ppg from your superstar might be all you need.

Ive never heard anyone mention Devin Harris as the reasons we lost against the Warriors three years ago.

Most of the role players on the Mavs did what they were supposed to do but the two biggest culprits in that series were
1. Avery Johnson




2. Dirk Nowitski

Don Nelson completely out coached Avery in that series....and its one of the big reasons the Mavs decided to let Avery go after the next season.

One of Avery's biggest mistakes was trying to match Golden States small ball lineup instead of going big by playing Dampier and Diop.


Avery's dumbass decision to bench Erick Dampier and try and play small ball with the Golden State warriors in the 2007 playoffs.
Sent a message that the lineup that won 67 games wasn't good enough and it was stupid because the Mavs aren't a good small ball team.

He tended to do the same thing when the Mavs played the Suns.

How did Utah defeat the Warriors in the next round?
By leaving their big men in the game and just dominating the warriors on boards. By leaving their big men in the game it also strengthened their perimeter defense because there was a shotblocker to protect the guards and small fowards.

Avery tried to "slow the game down" and make the warriors "play our game" which was also stupid because the Mavs don't have Tim Duncan and are not a great half court team.

What Jerry Sloan did was exploit the Warriors non existent transition defense and score as many points as possible.

What kills me is that the Mavs finally made these adjustments the next year(2007-08) and beat the Warriors 3 out of 4 times with two of the victories being blowouts.


Dirk could have played better, but Avery came up with nothing to slow down the double and triple teams.

I would love to say that I completely came up with that myself, but I got most of that from an NBA blog called 20 second timeout

It goes into pretty good detail on what the Mavs did wrong while losing to the Warriors and how coaching was the Mavs biggest let down.

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Anyone who visits this site regularly knows that I have repeatedly insisted (most recently in this post) that teams should not be afraid to run against the Golden State Warriors and that the Dallas Mavericks could have avoided their upset loss to the Warriors in last year's playoffs if the Mavericks had pushed the ball up the court instead of trying to slow the game down.

These truths were once against confirmed in Dallas' 121-99 win over Golden State on Wednesday night. Dirk Nowitzki scored a game-high 29 points on 9-16 shooting, adding eight rebounds, six assists and three blocked shots. Nowitzki had a game-high plus/minus rating of +25. Five other Mavericks also scored in double figures, including Josh Howard, who had 19 points and a game-high 13 rebounds as Dallas outrebounded Golden State 50-35. Stephen Jackson led Golden State with 25 points but he shot just 8-21 from the field, including 1-5 from three point range. Baron Davis, who terrorized Dallas during the playoffs, had just 10 points and six assists, shooting 2-14 from the field.

The first time these teams played this season, Dallas also won a fast paced game--120-115--but some people tried to diminish the significance of that victory because Jackson did not play due to being suspended by the NBA.

During a first quarter timeout, Dallas Coach Avery Johnson told his team, "Keep pushing the ball. Run for layups." The Mavericks followed his advice and led 36-23 after the first 12 minutes. Golden State Coach Don Nelson loves to go after whoever he thinks is the opposing team's worst defender and/or whichever individual matchup he thinks is most in favor of one of his players. His starting lineup did not include a traditional center and it soon became obvious that the Warriors were focused on trying to exploiting the fact that Dallas center Erick Dampier was guarding Al Harrington, who is really a small forward.

The Warriors may have won that battle on the surface--Harrington outscored Dampier 14-4 in the first quarter--but the Mavericks won the war and had the lead because they took many of their shots within eight seconds on the shot clock, thereby preventing the Warriors from setting up the zone defenses and gimmicky traps that caused Dallas so much trouble during last year's playoff series between these teams.

A major mistake that Dallas made during the playoffs was changing a starting lineup that had gone 67-15 during the regular season. There is no reason that the Mavericks cannot beat the Warriors using their regular lineup. Harrington's early points proved to be fool's gold, while Dampier provided a strong inside presence throughout the game, taking advantage of scoring opportunities in the paint, setting solid screens, getting rebounds and blocking shots. Dampier finished with 13 points on 5-5 shooting, seven rebounds and three blocked shots, while Harrington did not do much after his first quarter outburst and ended up with 21 points.

Dirk Nowitzki's fast break layup put the Mavericks up 40-25. It is very important to note that when he took that shot only four seconds had gone off of the shot clock. Having your seven foot tall, MVP player shooting a layup is much better than slowing the game down and having him try to score in the post against a swarming defense. Nowitzki's three pointer at the 3:54 mark put Dallas up 58-40; he took that shot after just six seconds had gone off of the shot clock. As I've been saying for months now, Nowitzki is a face up shooter, so it makes no sense to slow the game down and have him grind it out in the post with defenders trapping him as the shot clock winds down; push the ball up the court, have Nowitzki spot up and then the guards will either score layups or if the defense collapses to stop their drives then Nowitzki can drain open jumpers/three pointers all night long.

For some reason, in the closing minutes of the first half Dallas decided to "exploit" the alleged mismatch of Davis guarding Nowitzki or Howard on the post. The Mavericks got nothing out of these possessions; on one occasion, Howard bricked a turn around jumper and five seconds later Davis drove to the hoop and was fouled by Nowitzki.

The Warriors will push the ball relentlessly regardless of what their opponents do; slowing the game down only leads to bad shots and turnovers (both of which are caused by defensive pressure and poor decisions made with the shot clock running down) that make it easier for the Warriors to score in the open court. Could there be a worse sequence from Dallas' standpoint than a missed shot that five seconds later leads to a foul being committed by the Mavericks' best player? Davis made both free throws to cut Dallas' lead to 60-50. Dallas missed a shot but retained possession when Golden State knocked the ball out of bounds. Howard received the inbounds pass, went one on one versus Mickael Pietrus and took a tough jumper over Pietrus and Davis, who arrived in time to double-team Howard; Golden State rebounded the miss and three seconds later Jackson scored a fast break layup, cutting Dallas' lead to 60-52 at halftime.

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http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2008_01_01_archive.html

The same guy talks about Utah beating Golden St and how they did it.


So if someone ask me where the blame for the 2007 Golden St series lies....the easy answer is Dirk and for Jason kidd fans its Devin Harris.


I feel the biggest reason we lost is that Avery Johnson did not know how to coach against a team like the Warriors.

quote:

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Derek Fisher scored 11 of his 20 points in the fourth quarter as the Utah Jazz beat the Golden State Warriors 100-87 to win their series 4-1 and advance to the Western Conference Finals. Utah also got strong performances from Carlos Boozer (21 points, 14 rebounds) and Andrei Kirilenko (21 points, 15 rebounds).

The Jazz outrebounded the Warriors 59-35 and their 269-171 rebounding advantage during the series is the largest in NBA playoff history according to the Elias Sports Bureau. Baron Davis led the Warriors with 21 points, eight assists and six steals but shot just 5-16 from the field, including 1-7 from three point range. Stephen Jackson scored 16 points but shot 3-17 overall and matched Davis' 1-7 three point shooting. Midway through the game, I realized exactly who the Warriors resemble: a team composed of five Gilbert Arenas clones--not in physical appearance, of course, but in style of play.

Arenas shoots from anywhere at any time and when he is hot everything is beautiful. Of course, sooner or later bad shot selection catches up with you.

A glance at the final score may make one think that Utah won by slowing the game down but the reality is that the Jazz nearly fell into the same trap that doomed Dallas in the first round; playing slowly against Golden State merely allows the Warriors to sag into the paint and use their quick hands to deflect passes and get steals. Utah led 80-73 at the 11:40 mark in the fourth quarter, which would be a 106 point pace, but the Jazz scored just nine points in the next nine minutes; they stopped running, were unable to get the ball inside due to Golden State's swarming halfcourt defense and they ended up with a lot of turnovers and forced three pointers.

Fisher saved the day by scoring nine of Utah's first 18 points in the fourth quarter. The Jazz scored 100 points only because they made 10 free throws in the last 2:35; the fourth quarter pace was slow and this did not work to Utah's advantage. While it makes sense to slow the game down against Phoenix and pound the Suns to death in the paint--a strategy that almost worked even for the woefully undermanned Lakers in the 2006 playoffs--Golden State plays much more tenacious and scrappy halfcourt defense; the way to beat the Warriors is to run with them, wear them out and rely on the fact that your team cannot possibly have worse shot selection or shoot a lower percentage than the Warriors do.

the Mavericks would have run with the Warriors for the whole series then Dirk Nowitzki could have averaged about 30 ppg and Dallas would have won the series. If you don't believe that, just go back and look at the scores of the games that Golden State won and lost in this year's playoffs. Utah's Game Five win is, by far, the lowest scoring game that Golden State lost and the Jazz won more by attrition than anything else; the Warriors did not make a field goal in the last 3:39 of the game, exhausted after five games of running up and down the court with the Jazz and battling them in the paint.

Golden State does not play good transition defense and uses a short rotation, so it makes no sense to slow the game down and fight against their octopus-like halfcourt defense. Carlos Boozer is a better postup scorer than Nowitzki will ever be and when the game slowed down in the fourth quarter he scored exactly no field goals for the first 11:48; his only basket came on a layup with :12 left and the outcome no longer in doubt.

If Boozer could not score on the block in a slow down game against Golden State then why would anyone expect Nowitzki to do it? Many of Boozer's points in this series came on second chance points or when Utah pushed the ball and went to a quick attack, not allowing Golden State to drape bodies all over him.

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There is definitely plenty of blame to go around for the Golden State series. It was easy to see we were in toruble when Dirk couldn't get going. We didn't have anyone on the team that could run an offense if Dirk wasn't hitting, which is where I think Kidd is a lot better than Harris was/is.