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So, if he's talking about that....aka 2005, 2006, 2007 Lakers....then yeah, those teams were all FAR worse than ANY team Lebron has been on

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The '06 and '07 teams were about on par with what Lebron has been working with most of his career. Odom, Bynum, Walton, Vujacic and Farmar (in '07)

Comparing 32 year old Shaq to 38 year old Shaq

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so basically this entire retarded argument is based on the fact that kobe didn't win the title against boston in 2008 with gasol playing half a season. or in 2004 since we'll attribute it to shaq and malone/payton past their primes. even though lebron didn't win it with shaq past his prime.

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The point is not that hard to understand. Any time Kobe has won a ring, he's had at least one other dominant player and a better supporting cast than Lebron has ever had. Therefore it's erroneous to claim Kobe is the better individual basketball player based on that alone. Also, attributing 2004 as Kobe playing with Shaq past his prime and then somehow thinking that's equal to Lebron playing with Shaq 6 years later is laughable. Besides, "past his prime" 2004 Shaq won the title soon thereafter.

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so that much lebron better.


jesus fooking moses.

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Are you so seething mad that you can't see straight long enough to type a coherent sentence?

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or in 2004 since we'll attribute it to shaq and malone/payton past their primes

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puddy, it was meant to be read as Kobe/Shaq, and Payton/Malone past their primes.

but, BMED still isn't talking about 2004...they got to the finals. he's talking about 2006/2007. in 2008, they got to the finals again. this is not "flaming out of the playoffs"...Pau played there for half a season.


this is NOT the argument to make for Lebron >>> Kobe. this is the argument for Kobe >>>> Lebron. Lebron's at home eating pancakes and Kobe's in his 3rd straight finals, about to go for ring #5, and could easily get another 1-2 rings possible even 3 in his career.

Give it up Simple -- you're nitpicking at one little part of the argument. You know darn well what the overall point is.

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Any time Kobe has won a ring, he's had at least one other dominant player and a better supporting cast than Lebron has ever had. Therefore it's erroneous to claim Kobe is the better individual basketball player based on that alone.

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And calling people retards and dewshes doesn't hold much water after some of the claims you've made on the subject.

you're right. lets make it simple.

kobe has 4 rings. lebron has 0.

if you're gonna say kobe had better players, you need to open that gate both ways and say he probably had better player to take away from his statistics. which could be why lebron's individual stats are better. kobe did score 81 points i heard. he might have been a pretty dominant player one time when smush parker was with him.

kobe- 4 championships
lebron- 0


and therefore kobe >>> lebron. and if it becoems 5 to 0, it's even more solidified.

and most importantly, kobe 1 dunk contest champion, lebron 0.

When reason gives way to anger and homerism the end result is Simplebay.

It's unbelievable how much tunnel vision the dude has. Impossible to have a discussion with him.

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if you're gonna say kobe had better players, you need to open that gate both ways and say he probably had better player to take away from his statistics.

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That is a good point.

incorrect puddy. look up the term apologia and logical fallacy.

all im doing is defending my opinions using the arguments brought forth by you guys. and as it turns out, you're wrong. your own arguments don't make sense.

furthermore, its smarter to stick to the individual statistics when trying for the "lebron over kobe" argument. any other way really does prove it in favor of kobe.

What part of "Kobe has had much better teammates so it's unfair to compare he and Lebron based on playoff success" doesn't make sense?

You act like that Kobe playing with Smush Parker for a few years somehow negates the fact he's had Shaq or Gasol almost every year he's been in the league. Tell us what kind of fallacy that is.

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all im doing is defending my opinions using the arguments brought forth by you guys. and as it turns out, you're wrong. your own arguments don't make sense.

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See what I mean?

You know what, you're right. Kobe didn't play alongside one of the best centers of all time that was virtually unstoppable for about 4 years. What is everyone thinking? We're all wrong, and you're the one who is right.

The centers that James has played with have been just as good if not better than Shaq in his prime.

Un f'ing real.

your argument is literally a non argument.

cool...so lebron would've won championships AS WELL with a dominant shaq? as kobe WON CHAMPIONSHIPS? hypothetically?

yep...that definitely proves lebron's better than kobe. a hypothetical situation that would yield the same result. you mentioned this earlier when backing up BMED. i already showed you how this argument doesn't make sense and proves nothing. stick with the individual statistics. hypothetical situations resulting in what kobe already did don't really swing it in lebron's favor. and it's trivial.

it proves nothing. just because i'm stating it again doesn't mean it's tunnel vision. it means it's a dumb argument and you're wrong within the context of your own point. doesn't shift the favor of the argument. i don't even need a counter argument. there's so many holes in your own point (see BB's post).

[This message has been edited by Simplebay (edited 6/3/2010 2:24p).]

BMED said this:

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'Kobe's great, but he flamed out in the postseason with teams far more talented than the ones Lebron has had to work with'

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There are parts of the original statement that can be argued, but the overall point behind it is true. It's hiliarious that you have jumped through hoops refuting it and now claim that you've owned us all debate-style.

no, what's hilarious is you are actually using this as an argument for lebron > kobe. or at least, you're backing up BMED who has stated as such. when there's so many holes in it and it's not even true.

so, what BMED said was flamed out in the playoffs. and that lebron is better because he wouldn't have (dumb argument to begin with, hypotheticals prove nothing).

however, to appease to idioots:

2004- NBA Finals. Shaq, Kobe, Malone/Payton washed up. Why does the blame fall to Kobe for this loss?
2005- not applicable, no playoffs.
2006- first round exit, worse team than lebron's
2007- first round exit, worse team than lebron's
2008- NBA finals. hardly a flame out. Gasol was with the team for less than half a season.
2009- Won Championship
2010- NBA finals/championship??

[This message has been edited by Simplebay (edited 6/3/2010 2:33p).]

The whole argument about who Kobe has won championships with has not been used to show that Lebron is better then Kobe. It's been used to show that Lebron is not inferior to Kobe based solely on number of championships. At least the entire argument I've made.

If A, then B != If B, then A. They teach that like the first day of Logic.

hehe Judge that's "affirming the consequent"

without introducing as many other variables into the "proof", BMED can't actually show that lebron is better than Kobe by this argument. and that's what he's saying all along.

even if the variables in the point were all shown to consider of everything.

When did BMED (or anyone) ever say that Lebron is better than Kobe BECAUSE if you switched them the results would be the same? He did not say that A>B because of C. He said B is not greater than A and cited C as a reason.

This whole time you've actually been arguing a point that he never made. Isn't that a straw man fallacy?

In Simplebay's opinion, Pau is the best PF in the league, Bynum is the 2nd best center in the league, Artest is the best defender in the league, Odom is the best bench player in the league and is the ultimate mismatch, and Kobe is the best player in the league.

However, with that supporting cast, Kobe could be no better than Dwayne Wade or Brandon Roy and the Lakers would still win the NBA Championship. ACCORDING TO HIS OWN ACCOUNT OF THE LAKERS.

[This message has been edited by HotardAg07 (edited 6/3/2010 2:41p).]

Hotard gets it. All things Lakers. best team ever.

and Kobe still >>>> Lebron.


i just think it's hilarious that after the addition of Pau Gasol the Lakers all of sudden appear to be one of the best team's ever on this board, and it has almost nothing to do with Kobe, and Lebron who has zero credibility in leading his team to a title would undoubtedly do it so much so that it actually makes kobe seem like a worse player.


ahhh Texags. yer ze best.

Has there ever been a poster less qualified to give us lessons on logic?

Devp comes to mind. That's about it.

Hey Hotard, this is from a huge Celtics homer Bill Simmons. must be Laker bias right? remind you of anything?

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the Lakers have a top-10 all-timer, as well as the league's second-best big man (Gasol), most flexible forward (Odom) and best power perimeter defender (Artest).

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In Simplebay's opinion, Pau is the best PF in the league, Bynum is the 2nd best center in the league, Artest is the best defender in the league, Odom is the best bench player in the league and is the ultimate mismatch, and Kobe is the best player in the league.

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http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100602&sportCat=nba

[This message has been edited by Simplebay (edited 6/3/2010 3:32p).]

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Judge
posted 2:31p, 06/03/10



The whole argument about who Kobe has won championships with has not been used to show that Lebron is better then Kobe. It's been used to show that Lebron is not inferior to Kobe based solely on number of championships. At least the entire argument I've made.

If A, then B != If B, then A. They teach that like the first day of Logic.

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Well stated. However, if anyone thinks that LeBron is on the same level as Kobe, Simplebay blows a gasket. He then resorts back to the championship deal and completely ignores the teams each played on, and ends up talking himself in circles. Rinse, repeat. Hell....he talks in circles on just about every thread come to think of it.

There are plenty of reasons as to why one could argue that Kobe is better than Lebron (and vice versa), but the number of championships is not one of them. The first time Lebron doesn't win a championship with a supporting cast like Kobe has had for his championships (Shaq in his prime, and now Gasol), then maybe you can make that argument. But the fact is that Lebron has never had a true number 2 star on his team. And when Kobe didn't have a number 2 star, he couldn't do ****. Lebron at least somehow carried that awful team to the finals in 07.

it baffles me that we have had 128 replies to a thread with basically the same 2 arguements. lebron would have as many championships as kobe if he played with better players....kobe would have better stats if he was carrying a team of scrubs. who cares they are both the pinnacle of basketball

Here's my take on the last couple pages. I am not saying LeBron sucks or anything, or that he wouldn't have the same success as Kobe if they switched places.

But those of you who are arguing for LeBron using those hypotheticals, it just doesn't work. You don't know that LeBron would win if they traded places. The fact is, you're having to guess at things just to keep LeBron in the conversation. You're having to make up hypotheticals that are completely unproveable. The fact is, Kobe has already done these things, and the fact that y'all are trying to prove LeBron is equal to Kobe by hypothetically comparing what LeBron could do to what Kobe has done is both funny and ironic.

It's like you're arguing that LeBron is great, and to prove your point, you had to come up with something great to compare him to, and the person you came up with is KOBE! And then the whole argument still consists of nothing more than "I think (though can't prove) that LeBron would be able to do what Kobe did, therefore Kobe is not better than LeBron." Well, for now, the fact is, Kobe has done it. LeBron hasn't. That's not a knock on LeBron. It's just a fact. Yes, they have different supporting casts, played in different leagues, blah blah blah. Those are all true and all certainly have some effect, but it's impossible to quantify it.

That's why when comparing two like this, all you can really go on is what have they done? What have they done overall, and what are they doing currently? For now, Kobe wins. Will LeBron someday have the championships like Kobe? He might. But until he does, Kobe reigns supreme.

All you just said is that Kobe has been in a better position to win, and has taken advantage of it. It certainly helps the case of Kobe being better that he has titles, but it doesn't prove that he is. Just looking at their individual skills, my opinion really hasn't changed. Kobe is a better shooter, and much better when it comes to draining shots against tight defense. Lebron is more athletic, better defensively, better rebounder, much better passer, and probably second to or equal to Kobe in terms of overall scoring ability. All in all I think he's a better all around individual player.

I agree that you can't really say anything definitive about Lebron and Kobe swapping places. Do I think Lebron would have won titles in those conditions? Yes. But it doesn't hold much real world value in this argument. Luckily it's an argument I personally never tried to make, but it has circulated some in this thread.

butt_puddy and BMED:



[This message has been edited by Simplebay (edited 6/4/2010 2:28p).]

There are a couple of articles on Kobe on espn.com right now that really show why Kobe is as good as he is -- not because of his physical gifts or abilities but more his doctoral-like study practices (both on opponents and ways to improve his game) and time spent executing on what he finds. The guy is the best right now because he literally does everything he can do be that guy. His psychological motor to be the best off the court is likely unmatched by any player ever -- even Jordan.

DP

[This message has been edited by Look Out Below (edited 6/5/2010 8:46p).]

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His psychological motor to be the best off the court is likely unmatched by any player ever -- even Jordan

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IF that's true, and it may or may not be, but if it is true, I'd argue that his motor wouldn't be so intense if not for having seen Michael Jordan before him. Much like Dr. J and others are in large part a big reason why MJ became MJ, MJ is undoubtedly one of the biggest reasons Kobe became Kobe. Kobe saw that Jordan was the most intense and focused and driven and hard working player ever and decided early on that his only goal was to be MJ, in every single way. And Kobe HAD to have that mental edge, because I'd argue he's not quite as physically gifted as MJ was. Didn't have the same hang time, even though Kobe's is still elite.

Anyway, to be clear, I don't believe Kobe is even in the same class as Jordan, but he is (and Ive said this many times), the closest thing out there to "the next Jordan."

You know, you look at Kobe and Vince Carter and some others that all could have been the next MJ. What separated them? Kobe has far and away the most Jordan-like psyche of all those guys, and he accepted nothing less from himself than being the best player in the game.

This is such a stupid thread. It's not even a sane argument. Anyone who knows anything about basketball knows that Lebron is the best player in the league. It really isn't even close.

That's NOT a knock on Kobe. Kobe is one of the greatest players ever. But to claim that Kobe is better than Lebron is just flat retarded. Just look at the freaking numbers. (Not that the numbers are needed; again, just watch them play and you should know). Lebron can do it ALL. Kobe can score and play defense.

[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 6/9/2010 10:21a).]

Ask 100 scouts if they would prefer to have Lebron on their team for one year (next year) or Kobe. 95 of them will say Lebron.

I don't even understand people who argue that Kobe is better, unless they are just fans who don't know anything about the game or people whose judgment has been temporarily warped by the fact that Kobe as 5 (soon to be 6) rings and Lebron has none.

[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 6/9/2010 12:47p).]