There was an argument on the "Heat Roster" thread about the importance of having a guy on your team who is great at scoring with his back to the basket. Soup pointed out (with a little exaggeration, in my opinion) that having a great post-up guy has historically been critical for a team to win the championship.

At least to some degree, he is right about that. There have been exceptions, but most NBA champions have had a great post player.

I tend to think the modern game is changing. The bodies are as big as ever, but teams are using them differently. Some of the best big men don't score with their back to the basket. How many guys catch the ball on the block anymore and DEMAND a double team? There are some guys who demand a double team, but that is because they always demand a double team when they work down near the block. Kobe is a fantastic post up player from the block for you. But if he is posting up, then he isn't penetrating. The NBA used to have guys that specialized in being really good offensively at that specific spot on the floor, and in doing so they opened up other parts of the floor for smaller, quicker players. There just aren't many guys like that anymore.


I'm not sure, but I tend to think that having a guy that specializes in scoring from the block is not as important as it once was. (Not saying it isn't important, just that the changes to the game have made it less critical).

you won't win a championship without a dominant top 3 big man

Dominant.

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you won't win a championship without a dominant top 3 big man

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I disagree with that. The last three titles were won by teams without a top 3 post player.

But you can't win without a player that can post up, work the paint, draw fouls, get to the line and get the high percentage shots.

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The last three titles were won by teams without a top 3 post player.

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Pau and 2008 healthy KG were 2 of the top 3 post players in the nba. yao is dead. howard. uhhh, who else?? oh wait i forgot you love ANDRUWWWWWWWW BOGUT.

and for the Luc Longley reference....i'll give that team a pass since they had the greatest player to ever play the game. those don't come along very much. and probably the best complimentary player ever.

[This message has been edited by Simplebay (edited 7/15/2010 10:54a).]

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But you can't win without a player that can post up, work the paint, draw fouls, get to the line and get the high percentage shots.

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Sure. But what you don't need anymore is a guy who specializes in block play. Kobe, Lebron, Dirk...they can all catch the ball at the block with their back to the basket and score. The difference is that those guys are also relied on by their teams as penetrators and outside shooters. When they are posting up, they can't penetrate or pop from the outside. When there were players that specialized from the block, the penetrators and shooters remained an offensive threat as penetrators and shooters.

How many big men (that is, players who are not relied on as a penetrators or shooters) routinely demand double teams from the block? Not may. That was how Hakeem's Rockets won. That was how Shaq's Lakers won, and Kareem's Lakers before him. That was what Malone did for Utah. I just don't think it is as needed anymore. Players specialize less. More and more big man are good three point shooters. So, if Lebron or Kobe is catching the ball on the block, they are more likely to have a 4 or 5 in the game that can hit the three ball. That didn't used to be the case. As a result, it is less important to have that one guy that specializes in post play. You can let your star guard play off the block, because (for example) the big man that is on the court with him is more likely to shoot well from the 3 point line.

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Pau and 2008 healthy KG were 2 of the top 3 post players in the nba.

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You and I will never agree on that, so lets save everyone the bore of reading through:
Dumbass, you can't really believe that.
No, you're the idiot, LOL

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oh wait i forgot you love ANDRUWWWWWWWW BOGUT.

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Since when?

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and for the Luc Longley reference....i'll give that team a pass since they had the greatest player to ever play the game. those don't come along very much.

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And the fact that Jordan is the best ever at operating in the paint. He spent most of his game driving the paint, posting up smaller and weaker guard and faking the drive and pulling back to nail the mid range shot.

But don't mind him. He's been having a tough time making clear, well thought out arguments while sucking off the entire Heat team. Just wait until they sign another half dozen players!

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and for the Luc Longley reference....i'll give that team a pass since they had the greatest player to ever play the game. those don't come along very much.

And the fact that Jordan is the best ever at operating in the paint. He spent most of his game driving the paint, posting up smaller and weaker guard and faking the drive and pulling back to nail the mid range shot.

But don't mind him. He's been having a tough time making clear, well thought out arguments while sucking off the entire Heat team. Just wait until they sign another half dozen players!

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Ummm...what? Simplebay has been sucking off the entire Heat team? Did I miss something.

While I don't understand your comments at all, I did notice that you took time to laud Jordan's ability to score in the paint. He was great at scoring in the paint. Tony Parker is pretty good at that as well. Neither of them were or are post players.

Did you even read my posts? It's fine if you didn't - I just sincerely don't know what you are talking about.

[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 7/15/2010 11:16a).]

I think I finally understood what you were trying to say above. You were telling Simplebay not to mind me, because I've been "sucking off the entire Heat team."

If you want to get into childish internet, name-calling fights with people (as you are prone to do), that's fine. I prefer not to. I had hoped to have a thread about actual basketball. I have no idea why you saw fit to take that tone. But I think I'll just see myself to the door.

[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 7/15/2010 11:21a).]

WFF, I'll add this, though I agree the game is changing, if you have a top notch back to the basket post player that demands double teams, your chances of playing for the prize go up exponentially.

People mention Jordan but forget that those first three crowns they Bill Cartwright who though not elite was not chopped liver. His defense on Ewing was the difference in winning and losing.

I would of loved to have seen the Rockets play the Bulls in the WC. Seatle was a bad matchup for the Rockets because of their ability to throw a lot of big guys at Olujawan. If the Rockets beat Seatle there a Houston/ Chicago series would of been very interesting, the Bulls had no answer for Olujawon and the Rockets has always matched up well with the Bulls. One of the reasons is Olujawons defense in the paint was the best the game has ever seen with maybe Bill Russell being the exception.

Anyway that would of been a great series.

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But you can't win without a player that can post up, work the paint, draw fouls, get to the line and get the high percentage shots.

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exactly. I think in today's game you still need you need a good player in the post, but he doesn't necessarily have to be a "big man".

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Simplebay has been sucking off the entire Heat team? Did I miss something.

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I think I finally understood what you were trying to say above. You were telling Simplebay not to mind me, because I've been "sucking off the entire Heat team."

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No you didn't get it. It didn't have anything to do with you or Simplebay.

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While I don't understand your comments at all, I did notice that you took time to laud Jordan's ability to score in the paint. He was great at scoring in the paint. Tony Parker is pretty good at that as well. Neither of them were or are post players.

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That's true, Parker is good at driving the lane. However, he can't post anyone up, while Jordan could post and score on pretty much any 1, 2, 3.

I think having someone that can consistently grind it out down there is hugely key to advancing in the playoffs. You need to be able to pick up the tough baskets, and while Parker is great at finishing, he really can't get the big baskets throughout the playoffs. Even in Parker's best year, when the Spurs needed to get those tough baskets, Duncan was getting fed in the post.

It is great to have guards that can post up, but there are very few that can do it well enough to carry a team. Especially now with the illegal defense/zone defense rules that weren't around when Jordan was dominating the league.

Having guards that can effectively slash is more important than ever, but it doesn't replace someone that can grind out the paint.

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People mention Jordan but forget that those first three crowns they Bill Cartwright who though not elite was not chopped liver. His defense on Ewing was the difference in winning and losing.

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More importantly, they had Horace Grant.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 7/15/2010 11:40a).]

Yes they did, the truth is both teams that won the three rings were loaded with talent.

Still BC was so pivital in those first three because of his defense on Ewing, Without BC the Knicks win at least one of those 7 game series.

When Jordan did return the Magic and Shaq manhandled them with a healthy P Hardaway and the Rockets destroyed the Shaq led Magic. It took a few years for Shaq to develop maturity then he started dominating. Then the Spurs got Duncan and they started dominating.

The point is if you get a top flight back to the basket post player, you chances of playing for rings goes up exponentially.

In reality the game is still won and lost in the paint both in how you score their and how you defend it.

I'd take either one of these guys before I'd take Jordan.

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And the fact that Jordan is the best ever at operating in the paint. He spent most of his game driving the paint, posting up smaller and weaker guard and faking the drive and pulling back to nail the mid range shot.

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Jordan did not have this amazing post game for most of the first 3 championships he won. Bill Cartwrite's 8ppg and 5rpg does not qualify him as some big time block player. Horace did not have elite skills on the block either. Why not mention Perdue also?

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But don't mind him. He's been having a tough time making clear, well thought out arguments while sucking off the entire Heat team. Just wait until they sign another half dozen players!

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I can't believe how butthurt you are over someone using logical indicators to suggest that the Heat are going to play well together, be a decent rebounding team, and not have to play Wade/LeBron/Bosh 40mpg. Get some stitches, it will be OK.

I'm not butthurt at all. I think the Heat are going to be great.

Since this is stemming from the Heat's roster, and you are making arguments using the players below, I assume that you think that Bosh cannot play in the paint as well as Cartwrite, Longley, Winnington, Perdue, Grand, Kukoc?

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Since this is stemming from the Heat's roster, and you are making arguments using the players below, I assume that you think that Bosh cannot play in the paint as well as Cartwrite, Longley, Winnington, Perdue, Grand, Kukoc?

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And exactly my point earlier. You just don't get it.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 7/15/2010 12:32p).]

this has got to be the worst board on texags.

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this has got to be the worst board on texags.

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Does making a comment like this help propel conversation in the desired direction more than discussing the comments that are in response to your comments that are on topic?

i dont think the heat are going to win the championship next year. im not even sure if they'd beat a healthy boston.

chris bosh has been EXTREMELY overrated during this whole thing IMHO. great player....when the pressure wasn't on. he's going to have quite a bit of pressure now.

eric spolestrararara has never impressed me as a coach.

No no no Clam, you are only looking at offensive stats.

What made Cartwright so valuable was his defensive ability. He was an outstanding defensive center and thats all the Bulls needed, They did not need scoring from him, yet when he was younger he was solid if not spectacular scorer.

The Heat may wins some rings like the Bulls did and if they do it will be because to some degree, as it was for the Bulls a lack of dominate Bigs like Duncan and Olujawan, Shaq, Russel and Chamberlain.

There has been one change that has helped the guards, besides the three shot. It is the way they officiate! They highly favor slashers. Yet they let the guys in the paint mug a good post player.

I bet if you look at the stats the bulk of leading FTs shooters are slasher, in the past the post guys were leading FT shooters.

I think this is by design. The NBA does not want to have a 'plodding' half court game.

Yet who was in the finals this year and it was officiated kind of old school. Both those team have really good inside presence both offensively and defensively.

One last point, I think Bosh = L Aldridge. It's just that Portland has Roy and a much better team then the Raptors.

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chris bosh has been EXTREMELY overrated during this whole thing IMHO. great player....when the pressure wasn't on. he's going to have quite a bit of pressure now.

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I agree. I read something unrelated to him, but it made me think about where he would fall in.

The article was about the old guard and new guard in evaluating players.

Guys like Jerry West had an instinct about players.
Guys like Darryl Morey come up with the stats that tell you what they did and why that was good or bad.

It went into detail about how West would grade out a player, but completely ignore most stats. He would focus on other things. And two of the players he hated were SAR and AI when tons of other people were super high on them.

Bosh put up plenty of nice numbers, but I wasn't near as impressed with his game as I was Amare. Obviously, I am not the type that can really grade out players, but I do pay attention pretty closely with my job.

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eric spolestrararara has never impressed me as a coach.

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I dont really know a thing about him, other than Riley plans to kill him, hide his body where David Caruso won't find him and take over coaching the Heat in March.

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What made Cartwright so valuable was his defensive ability. He was an outstanding defensive center and thats all the Bulls needed, They did not need scoring from him, yet when he was younger he was solid if not spectacular scorer.

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This. BC was very solid at center. Kinda like Horry. Not going to put up great numbers ever, but is going to do the little things that help you win.

BC is like Horry. Talk about not getting it.

Soup, you are just in search of an argument, no matter the topic. You need constant reassurance, even if it means circle jerking with a guy you berate constantly and repeatedly on this board.

You think the heat won't rebound well, offering height as the only reason they won't. I think they will be fine, and gave plenty good reason to back. Other than that disagreement, you simply try to feed off of controversy, not unlike the vast majority of people. Your points, in this case, aren't backed up by much.

With relation to the heat, other than you're belief that they won't rebound well, what exactly are you trying to say?

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BC is like Horry. Talk about not getting it.

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That you can't get the comparison of two players based on their non-stat contributions shows that you don't get it. Exactly how old were you when Jordan retired for the first time?

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You think the heat won't rebound well, offering height as the only reason they won't.

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That you ignore everything else I have said and boil it down to one single attribute and make a case against having an argument on that one attribute shows that you cannot or do not want to argue logically or honestly.

While height is a factor, it is certainly not the only factor in how well a team will rebound.

For instance, DeJuan Blair was 4th in rebounds per minute played last year and he is just 6'5. Charles Barkley led the league in rebounds and he was 6'4-6'6 depending on who you asked.

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Your points, in this case, aren't backed up by much.

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That you cannot even name my points shows that you do not care so much to rebut them, but rather to argue your newfound team.

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With relation to the heat, other than you're belief that they won't rebound well, what exactly are you trying to say?

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Take it to any of your Heat circlejerk threads. As we don't really know how this team will gel or perform with any degree of certainty, they aren't relevant to this discussion. I've given plenty of opinions on them in the proper place, but as I do with any team, I want to hold out final opinion on them until they fill out their team and play a little. We really don't know how it is all going to work, and unlike you, I am not willing to base my opinion on how they all end up playing together by how they played in the olympics anymore than how they would scrimmage against Baylor.

i know exactly what's going to happen to the miami heat

You don't need a great post-up player. Your team needs to be able to consistently get high percentage shots, which are often found in the paint or wide open threes. For some teams, that means a dominant scoring big man who can score on mismatches or kick it out to wide open spot shooters on double teams. For the heat, It'll probably mean Lebron and Wade exploiting mis-matches, getting to the cup, passing off to cutters or finishing in the paint and getting to the free throw line.

The team also needs to be able to force teams into low percentage shots, which primarily means not giving up wide open threes and protecting the paint. You don't need a guy to swat balls in the stands, just someon who the offense has to account for. A guy that makes you adjust your shot, or do pump fakes, or arc your shot higher than you typically want to, etc. With Bosh and Haslem, they don't really have a guy that does that consistently now, but who knows how Bosh will act in his new role.

In my opinion, Bosh is just like Gasol. Great scorer, but not effective enough all around to carry a team by themselves. Plays defense, but is not a good defender. Rebounds, but is not a good rebounder.

Boohoo

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That you can't get the comparison of two players based on their non-stat contributions shows that you don't get it.

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You are comparing BC's contributions to Horry's. They are not comparable. If you don't know why, nobody can help you.

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Take it to any of your Heat circlejerk threads. As we don't really know how this team will gel or perform with any degree of certainty, they aren't relevant to this discussion. I've given plenty of opinions on them in the proper place, but as I do with any team, I want to hold out final opinion on them until they fill out their team and play a little. We really don't know how it is all going to work, and unlike you, I am not willing to base my opinion on how they all end up playing together by how they played in the olympics anymore than how they would scrimmage against Baylor.

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Ah, the ever present critic. No real opinion of your own. Thanks for wasting my time.

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Your team needs to be able to consistently get high percentage shots, which are often found in the paint or wide open threes.

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Dallas is the easiest example of why this just doesn't work for a big run.

No question that Dallas has had as much more more talent and depth and most of the NBA year to year. Definitely been top 5 in talent every single year for nearly a decade. But they have relied on the long ball. Even with absolutely terrific shooters, it just doesn't work for a playoff run.

Now if you can combine an amazing post presence that can pass very well with decent role players that are outstanding shooters, you can make a run with that (94 Rockets are the obvious example.)

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You are comparing BC's contributions to Horry's. They are not comparable. If you don't know why, nobody can help you.

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You clearly have no understanding of what players do outside the stat numbers that any monkey could recite without ever having seen a basketball game.

If you can't understand the parallels between role players and the vital role they play on championship teams that doesn't come up on the stat sheets, you really have no business discussing anything about basketball.

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The team also needs to be able to force teams into low percentage shots, which primarily means not giving up wide open threes and protecting the paint. You don't need a guy to swat balls in the stands, just someon who the offense has to account for. A guy that makes you adjust your shot, or do pump fakes, or arc your shot higher than you typically want to, etc. With Bosh and Haslem, they don't really have a guy that does that consistently now, but who knows how Bosh will act in his new role.

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You also need guys that play good defense together. Sometimes that takes a bit of work to get down to. Sometimes it gels immediately like Boston did. But you really need a team that can get tough stops. Incredibly important.

If your team defense isn't capable of getting tough stops against a team that can pound it in the paint or shoot the three and slash, someone is going to tear you up.

For instance, last year's Spurs played good on-ball defense. They could match up in the paint and they could keep shooters covered. Everyone was reasonably good at on ball defense and they were able to not sink to double teaming anyone as much as some teams have to.

That worked well for Dallas. Dallas didn't have anyone that could really exploit SA's weaknesses on defense.

Then the Spurs played Phoenix and the Suns were able to totally abuse the fact that the Spurs didn't have a mobile big man that could cover the pick and roll. And who runs that better than Nash/Amare? For so long, Duncan was the best at covering the pick and roll. But no more. But LA destroys that pick and roll because they have Artest/Odom/Gasol that are all big enough and mobile enough to come out to cover it.

Haha, Horry to BC analogy is only topped by your Rodman Robinson comparison. Keep typing those novels though. You come off like a real class act.

There are no good post players any more. So no you don't need a post player to win a championship.

Duncan is the last of his kind, all the post players care about now is making the highlight reel on ESPN by making some ridiculous dunk or putting some block into the bleachers. Things like playing with your back to the basket on offense and learning the art of rebounding are not really things the big men care about now.

Duncan has phenomenal post moves just like the great big men before him. They all knew exactly how to play the inside-out game. It's why Olajuwon was able to win a championship with nothing but role players and good shooters. Stuff like that is only possible if the superstar is a skilled post player.

Every post player in the NBA would be completely dominated by Duncan, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, and even Mourning when they were in their primes. Everyone in the NBA is a total joke compared to those guys.

you don't think Pau Gasol is a good post player?

he might be one of the 3 best post players ever to be able to finish with either hand

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he might be one of the 3 best post players ever to be able to finish with either hand

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Pau Gasol might not have cracked the top 3 in finishing in the post with either hand on the 86 Celtics.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 7/19/2010 11:33p).]