speaking of Elliot GS, how many times was he almost traded to only then fail a physical?

I think just the Detroit-Houston trade that would have brought Horry to MoTown. The Spurs pulled out of the Barkley-Elliott trade because of the perception that Barkley was a headcase didnt go over well with the owners.

When the Spurs traded back for Sean, they never seriously sought to trade him again, though they entertained a number of offers.

Ninja was always my favorite Spur of the pre-Duncan era. At least I always liked his game the most. Very quick first step, and a nice jumper to go along with good wing defense. He's been underrated in retirement IMO.

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Lebron is a gravy-trainer

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That is why he stayed in CLEVELAND for 7 years?

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Back in those days, the superstars didn't want to play WITH each other, they all wanted to BEAT each other.

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Jordan said he wanted to play and beat Magic and Bird. Well, Jordan can say that now when everyone has forgotten that he won ONE championship and made ONE finals appearance in his first 6 years in the NBA before Magic got HIV and Bird retired.

If you look at MJ and LeBron they are very similar. Both go to teams that are awful. The first 6 years of each career they put up INSANE statistical seasons. They carry their teams to the playoffs and conference finals but the Lakers and the Celtics (add Spurs for LeBron) are too dominant.
The only difference is after 6 years in Chicago the Bulls were making changes, bringing in Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen. After 6 years in Cleveland the organization had failed to build anything around LeBron.
So how you can blame him for leaving Cleveland, I don't know.

The year that Jordan didn't play showed the strength of the team Chicago built around MJ. In 93-94 the Bulls had 3 All-Stars and made the second round of the playoffs losing in 7 games.

The Cavs have brought in 0 All-Stars and the strength of their team is really showing now that LeBron is gone they are 8-21.

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And nobody is arguing that it is unfair for a superstar to wish for a better "supporting cast". But to suggest that Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh are the only adequate "supporting cast" Lebron has had is nonsense.

That's like saying the Indianapolis Colts have slighted Peyton Manning by not trying to acquire Andre Johnson and Adrian Peterson.

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It isn't nonsense. Lebron's arguably best supporting cast with the Cavs is playing pretty much intact from last season without him and is getting absolutely trucked this season (5th worst by winning percentage... worst by Pt differential per game). His supporting casts weren't there and, while it isn't the only factor, the main reason for that is that the Cavaliers management sucked.

And your Peyton analogy really has nothing to do with your original statement.

Nobody's saying that anything less than Wade or Bosh would have been inadequate.


[This message has been edited by ATM9000 (edited 12/27/2010 1:19p).]

I don't care what kind of "supporting cast" you have surrounding a player, most teams will get "trucked" due to the void left when a player of Lebron's caliber is removed from a roster. That's why they are called a "supporting cast".

Those guys in Cleveland....Gibson, Williams, Jameson, Verejao etc., those are exactly the kind of player who EXCEL when placed beside a great talent. If Lebron has all the basketball talent in the world his one failing is that he doesn't elevate the games of those around him, seemingly AT ALL. Put Kobe Bryant or MJ on that Cleveland roster and they would have won a title by now.

Just my $0.02 if its even worth that.

Kobe had a better team than that in the few seasons after Shaq before Pau Gasol and he was able to get them to the 2nd round of the playoffs. The fact you are arguing that Lebron didn't elevate the level of play of that Cavs team when he played there is nothing short of completely ludicrous.

Jamison was supposed to be Lebron's second banana last season. To put it in perspective, Jamison didn't even start for the only other really good team he ever played for (the Mavs).

[This message has been edited by ATM9000 (edited 12/27/2010 1:46p).]

Yeah, I don't know why Jamison wouldnt've started at the PF position in Dallas. It is a real mystery.

Anyone who can average 20/8 over the span of a 12-year NBA career is a pretty good "second banana". It isn't Jamison's fault he's been on a bunch of bad teams.

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Kobe had a better team than that

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Yeah, Luke Walton and Smush Parker have had long, illustrious NBA careers.

Lamar Odom is better than anyone on that Cavs team last season.

Antawn Jamison = Shareef Abdur-Rahim. He's a tweener who has constantly put up completely meaningless 20 and 8 seasons... that's telling. If he were really THAT good, he'd have played more 3 for the Mavs. The guy is above average, but he's about as average of a 20-8 player than you'll ever see.

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If he were really THAT good, he'd have played more 3 for the Mavs.

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During the '03-'04 season, Jamison was 3rd on the Mavs in scoring, 3rd in rebounding, 3rd in steals, 1st in FG%, 3rd in 3pt% (although he only took 1 every other game), and had the fewest turnovers of any player receiving more than 10 minutes per game. He was one of 2 players that played in all 82 games and received more minutes than anyone other than Dirk, Finley, Nash and Walker. He went for 15/6 on a team that was laden with offensive firepower. I definitely wouldn't use that year as an example of why Jamison isn't a good "second banana".

And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Lamar Odom come off the bench for the lakers most of last season?

Yes... Odom came off the bench for them... but how's that relevant to the discussion? He's still a better than any player the Cavs had on their roster besides Lebron last year. And Kobe at least had him in the years between Shaq and Pau.

Dirk's a no brainer more minutes than Jamison, but the fact that a good Mavs team played Antoine freaking Walker more than Antawn Jamison whiile Jamison was in his prime goes miles into validating my point regarding him and how good he actually is.

This doesn't even touch the fact that Jamison is way passed his prime. He's an average player on one of the worst teams in the league this season. Do you think his game has really taken that much of a dive in 1 season or (more likely) maybe he's an overrated player who is past his prime? Yup... and that was who Cleveland brought in to be Lebron's second banana. You'd be really mad at the Spurs if they did the same thing.

[This message has been edited by ATM9000 (edited 12/27/2010 3:53p).]

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Yes... Odom came off the bench for them... but how's that relevant to the discussion?

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You used the fact that Jamison came off the bench for the Mavs to suggest that Jamison isn't that good....and then a few posts later you suggest Lamar Odom is head and shoulders above Jamison in a supporting role, despite the fact that he routinely comes off the bench.

My point is this (and, admittedly, one that cannot be proven, so we'll just have to agree to disagree): Odom was seen as an "underperformer" until Kobe Bryant (and Phil Jackson, to be fair) turned him into some sort of uber-utility player in the mold of Scottie Pippen. The fact is, Odom's numbers are about the same as they've always been, and actually are not quite as good as Jamison's all-around. But, he's on a winning team, he has a well-defined role, so everybody now thinks he's some sort of superman supporting cast wonderguy. No, he's not. He's just found a good niche on a well-coached team that is led by a guy who knows how to get his teammates involved.

If Lebron had paid a little of himself into Mike Brown's system and not acted like a whiney little baby every time something didn't quite go his way, guys like Jamison, Mo Williams, Boobie Gibson, Anderson Verejao, Larry Hughes, Ben Wallace, etc., etc., etc., might have been greater than their sum, so-to-speak.

MY point is that Odom is better than Jamison... and he's relied upon as a 6th man for the Lakers, not as the #2 guy.

As far as Lebron goes, there are PLENTY of reasons to criticize him, but all too many times on this board, butthurt posters continue to manufacture others where there just aren't any... including this one. When he was in Cleveland, Lebron was pretty professional compared to many other superstars (including Kobe pre-Gasol). The management there didn't do everything they could to build anything close to a decent supporting cast to surround him. He left... simple as that. How he left was terrible and I'm not sure I love his decision to head to Miami, but it is his decision.

The Cavs went from a 61-21 team to an 8-22 team this season and you REALLY want to contest that Lebron didn't lift his teammates up and make them better players. That's just silly and ignorant... nothing more, nothing less. The difference in records speaks for itself in terms of the teams and who made who greater than the sum of their parts. On top of that, I think most in the league consider Byron Scott a better coach than Mike Brown.

[This message has been edited by ATM9000 (edited 12/27/2010 6:08p).]

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and he's relied upon as a 6th man for the Lakers, not as the #2 guy

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So then, kinda like Antawn Jamison was for Dallas? Except in Jamison's case you said "he would have played more 3 if he were better". Jamison had better offensive numbers in Dallas than Odom does in LA, and Jamison was basically option #5 on that team. And since we're talking revisionist history,

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a good Mavs team played Antoine freaking Walker more than Antawn Jamison whiile Jamison was in his prime

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Antoine Walker, in his prime, was a 20/9/5 player himself and considered one of the most versatile offensive players in the entire league.

We can agree to disagree. The fact that you are now resorting to the "butthurt, silly, ignorant" bs tells me you've come to the end of your rope. Thanks for the nice discussion.

Good Lord... let me try to slow this down for you.

Last season, the Cavs brought in Antawn Jamison to be Lebron's #2 guy. Given that Jamison was nothing more than a 6th man on the only contending team he played for and that was in his prime, what message SHOULD that signal to all re: the adequacy of Lebron's supporting cast to win a title?

On top of that all of the tangible evidence between this season and last season basically more than spells out that the Cavs aren't just a little worse with a better coach sans Lebron but a WAY worse team.

Despite all of this pretty clear evidence, you still claim that Lebron didn't make his teammates better and had more than an adequate team to win a title in Cleveland. That's the textbook definition of ignorance. Any sane person who understands basketball would side with me on this one.

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But, he's on a winning team, he has a well-defined role, so everybody now thinks he's some sort of superman supporting cast wonderguy.

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This.

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Good Lord... let me try to slow this down for you.

Last season, the Cavs brought in Antawn Jamison to be Lebron's #2 guy. Given that Jamison was nothing more than a 6th man on the only contending team he played for and that was in his prime, what message SHOULD that signal to all re: the adequacy of Lebron's supporting cast to win a title?

On top of that all of the tangible evidence between this season and last season basically more than spells out that the Cavs aren't just a little worse with a better coach sans Lebron but a WAY worse team.

Despite all of this pretty clear evidence, you still claim that Lebron didn't make his teammates better and had more than an adequate team to win a title in Cleveland. That's the textbook definition of ignorance. Any sane person who understands basketball would side with me on this one.

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Antawn Jamison could have easily been the second or third best player on the Mavs team, they just didn't use him that way. It's almost unfair that he won 6th Man of the Year because of his ability and the way he was used. Just because he came off the bench doesn't mean he is a lesser player. Gilbert Arenas is coming off the bench in Orlando, but he's easily the second best player on that team.

With respect to Odom, Jamison has always been a better pro. If he really put his mind to it, Odom could be a top ten player in this league because of his versatility and skill set. But he's not. Anyone that's watch basketball in the past ten years knows why. There's a reason why he has a rep as one of the biggest underachievers in the NBA. Even his Kardashian wife calls him lazy.

And Byron Scott had a great coaching start, but over the past few seasons, he has proven himself to be one of the more overrated coaches in the NBA. He's still good, but let's not make him to be Phil Jackson when he's not. He's basically the Joe Dumars of coaching. And anytime you have a coaching change after a relatively long-tenured coach, you're going to have ups and downs, probably more downs. See any team that Larry Brown has gone to.

And Mike Brown was a good coach. He was just in a no-win situation.

You don't get the best record in the league two years straight without having a good coach and a good supporting cast.

Nobody's calling Byron Scott Phil Jackson, but he's decent and has netted good results in multiple stops.

And I don't think having the best record in the league in the regular season is all that difficult considering the Cavs played in an Eastern Conference that was basically weak sauce... especially with the Celtics gimped up last year... plenty of bad coaches have produced really good regular seasons.

As far as Odom vs. Jamison, I'm not calling Odom all world, I'm calling Jamison vastly overrated. If you are asking me to take one of the 2 to be a 2nd banana knowing that I'll have somebody like Kobe, Lebron, or Carmelo who can mostly score at will, I'm taking Odom for his versatility and the fact he isn't a ball stopped like Jamison is.

If you play for nothing but bad to mediocre teams who are all geared more offensively than defensively, averaging 20-8 for your career isn't the achievement it was in the 80's or 90's. My contention is Jamison is a pretty good player, but certainly nobody you would want as anything more than your 3rd best player in his prime if your goal is to contend for a title.

There's a reason that he's constantly been mentioned in trades rumors and has been traded so many times in his career. It's because while he's good, he's nowhere close to a player you'd want to anchor your team with like you'd want from your 2 or 3 top players.

I'd respond but obviously I'm too ignorant to continue.

Thanks for educating me pal. Didn't realize you had polled all the sane people who understand basketball. I feel smarter already.

If you don't want to be called ignorant, don't continue ignorant arguments that defy what every measurable fact backs up.

As somebody who spends his career in science/statistics, it is always amazing to me what people consider to be "measurable" and "fact".

On the other hand, it never amazes me anymore when somebody can't continue a civil discussion in this forum.

8-21 this season vs. 61-21 last season are proven facts that are pretty damn measurable.

Thing is, could I be wrong? Of course I can. But the measurables all point to, I'm not. Meanwhile, you've thrown things out there that really don't do anything to backup the 1 statement you've made that I'm disputing:

1. Lebron had an adequate supporting cast in Cleveland.

Just own up and admit you are shutting your ears and closing your eyes and screaming 'Lebron sucks' rather than looking at the situation objectively.

That team without Lebron is a big collection of garbage and players that'd mostly be coming off the bench of most playoff teams. Sorry, but that isn't an adequate supporting cast. I know this and deep down, you have to know this too.

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You don't get the best record in the league two years straight without having a good coach and a good supporting cast.

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That. Or the best player to play basketball since Michael Jordan putting up his best statistical season, and carrying the garbage around him to a much better season than they deserved. The Cavs were 1-5 last year without LeBron and 8-22 this year without him. They've lost 27 of their last 36 games without him. That's as many as they lost in the last 117 with him.

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To be fair, Philly's management when Barkley was there was kinda Clipper-like. I wouldn't fault any superstar to pushing their way out of an environment where the management wasn't committed to winning. And Barkley wasn't specifically pushing towards Phoenix. He just wanted off a sinking ship.

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True. Also true is the fact that LeBron played last season for a now out of work coach (although I don't think he deserved to be fired), and an owner that acts like a petulant, whiny child, and who may be certifiably insane. It's not like he was playing for Peter Holt and Popovich, or Jerry Buss and Phil Jackson.

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Put Kobe Bryant or MJ on that Cleveland roster and they would have won a title by now.

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This is completely laughable. Jordan: ya, maybe, Kobe: not a chance in hell.

Kobe would have *****ed and complained, quit on his team, and failed to make the playoffs. This isn't speculation, this is what he actually did when confronted with the same situation. He had a no talent roster in 04-05, 05-06, and 06-07 and didn't make it past the 1st round.





Regardless of whether Antawn Jamison or Lamar Odom is the better player, what is undeniable is that Antawn Jamison is a ****load worse than anyone Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant ever had as a 2nd option on a title team.

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8-21 this season vs. 61-21 last season are proven facts that are pretty damn measurable.

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Yes, but you're "measuring" a lot of things all at once. Lebron is not the ONLY thing that is different about that team.

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Just own up and admit you are shutting your ears and closing your eyes and screaming 'Lebron sucks'

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I've never said Lebron sucks. I've always said he's the most talented player in the entire league. But he's also a really crappy teammate and a quitter.

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rather than looking at the situation objectively

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Pretty sure we're both looking at it subjectively, so cut the crap.

What evidence do you have that he's a bad teammate? The fact that he never threw his teammates or coaches under the bus publicly while he was there or the fact that he distributed and MADE guys wide open every game? Again, you are manufacturing stuff based on what you like to think of him as a person, not on what's actually occurred.

Sure, Lebron isn't the ONLY thing different with the team, but it is more than fair to say his absence probably contributes to 85-90% of the change.

For the last time, I don't particularly like him as a person, but the idea that his team was adequate to win a title is ludicrous and we've gotten to a point where a lot of crap said about him is completely unfounded.

Sorry, but no objective observer would ever claim that Kobe would win a title with Cleveland's roster as a supporting cast.

[This message has been edited by ATM9000 (edited 12/28/2010 1:20p).]

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What evidence do you have that he's a bad teammate?

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(A) Never bothered to tell his Cav teammates he had decided to leave
(B) The ridiculous running into his coaches on sideline trips
(C) THIS
(D) THIS

[This message has been edited by MassAggie97 (edited 12/28/2010 1:30p).]

MasAggie - What evidence do you have that he is a quitter?

He stayed 7 years in an awful franchise giving them ample time to build something around him and he felt they hadn't. I don't feel they did either and I think Cleveland's record this year does a good job of displaying that.


If you are saying he is a quitter because of the playoffs last year, he had one bad game. He came back the next game a posted a BIG triple double (27 points, 19 boards, 10 assists.) I don't know how you can consider that quitting.

AND if he is expected to do more than that performance on a nightly basis so that his team can win then nobody can blame him for leaving. You can't name anybody in the game today that can post those numbers every night.

So you have a bunch of incidentals from 'unnamed sources' and things that happened in the past that NOBODY brought to life until after he went to Miami. In today's day in age with blogs, insiders, and the internet, you find it funny that none of this really saw the light of day until after James became the media's favorite pariah.

I'm not saying it isn't all true, but probably some of it isn't and other things like running into the coach seems pretty incidental to me as no deal was made of it at all until maybe a month ago.

In any case, this doesn't change the fact that your basis for argument re: his supporting cast and how he didn't make his team better are still garbage.

Update: As of right now, the Cavs are the worst team in the league, but hey... that was a good enough supporting cast to win a title and Lebron definitely didn't make his teammates better when he played.

But that's not pretty clear evidence... that's just my opinion.

if you can't recognize that LeBron was easily the MVP of the league last year, look at the 2010 cavs, who are essentially the exact same team as 2009, and are 10000 games under .500

Funny, I always hated MJ. Could not stand him or any other Bull player when I was a kid.

if you can't recognize that lepoosy james is a poosy than you're not worth talking to

[This message has been edited by RAM 12 (edited 1/13/2011 9:34a).]

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Funny, I always hated MJ. Could not stand him or any other Bull player when I was a kid.

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You know, me neither. The difference though, is that you at least have to respect Jordan for his relentless desire to win at all costs. You'd never see him sulking about petty BS in crunch time like Lebron does from time to time. Nor would you see him joking around or smiling during or after a loss, or brushing it off like "no big deal". He wanted to beat the Clippers in November as badly as he wanted to beat the Celtics or Pistons in May. He wanted to win 10X worse than any other player in the league. You cannot say that about Lebron.

Also, Jordan wasn't a media *****. He was fairly reclusive for an NBA superstar, and I respected that even if the details that did slip out were generally negative.

I hated Jordan. I still think he's a POS. But I put Lebron in a different category all together. Lebron's personality defects have influenced his game negatively on numerous occasions, IMO.