http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=310111013

I've never even heard of a beatdown that bad

77-0

lol at Cleveland and the butt hurt

Those scrubs Lebron left got beat by 55 and everyone was hating on him because he couldnt win a championship with them.

Not to apologize for them, but the "scrubs" were missing 4 players from their 2-deep, including Verajao, Gibson, Parker and Powe. They were also without Joey Graham.

But the Lebron-lust is duly noted.

You'll never bone up and admit that you were wrong on both of your Lebron points will you?

It's cool if you don't, but admit you're incredibly biased against his game due to your non-basketball issues with him.

[This message has been edited by ATM9000 (edited 1/12/2011 9:35a).]

I'll admit it when you admit your man-crush on Lebron.

I "bone up" all the time. Ask my wife.

BTW- what were both of my Lebron points?

Go back to the thread in question... I'll admit there are plenty of things to criticize Lebron over, but you manufactured these:

1. Lebron's supporting cast was adequate and even went as far as to say Kobe would win a title with them.

2. Lebron didn't make his teammates better.

Arguing those 2 things are ridiculous doesn't make a Lebron man-crush... it makes me an intelligent b-ball fan.

It's not often that you look at the +/- for a player and you see a +41 for the game, much less all your starters at that or better.

ryan hollins..manny harris..alonzo gee..samardo samuels..christian eyenga..

that's nearly half a basketball team..but i dont remember any of these guys being a part of lebron's supporting cast...

Watch out wheelsoff- you're about to get called a hater.

But but... I thought it was strictly about basketball discussion with you here and nothing else! Everyone ELSE is ruining the board!!! With this post, I'll go ahead and assume you won't man up and admit that you were wrong about Lebron and the Cavs in terms of basketball. That's cool... pretty sure you know you were.

This season, without Lebron, the Cavs have the worst record AND worst pt. differential by abt 4 pts. in the NBA. Yes, last night they were without the bulk of their team, but for the most part, their top rotation has been Williams, Hickson, Varajao, Jamison, Anthony Parker, and Jamario Moon. That's basically their rotation w/ Lebron and Ilgauskas last year. The team is getting trucked... time to face facts that his supporting cast really WAS awful there.

ATM...did you read wheelsoff's posted at all?

the cavs are hurt. have players lebron never played with. and have been psychologically beat down by lebron's effing them in the butt with the decision. the players he played with are not nearly as bad as they are playing right now. (remember when the cavs refused to trade hickson for amare)

it's like ATM doesn't read what he posts sometimes.

the supporting cast lebron had in cleveland was part his doing..he would never commit to staying in cleveland past last year..that in essence hamstrung his team in signing free agents because they didn't want to be around for what the cavs are now post-lebron...

I read the post and acknowledged it... doesn't change the fact that the rotation has largely been exactly the same as last season less Ilgauskas and Lebron for the large majority of the season... and they are still getting rolled.

What's sad is that the true sucktitude of the Cavs is coming to light and Kobe fan #1 and the band of Lebron's lynchmob on here STILL don't acknowledge how bad his team last season (and seasons prior) really were.

The team as is now is mostly management's doing... see their draft record and also, the fact that they brought in Jamison instead of Stoudemire with possibly their last shot at a title last season because of JJ Hickson.

[This message has been edited by ATM9000 (edited 1/12/2011 2:08p).]

varajao..jamison..gibson..williams have missed time this season..the cavs this year were a .500 team when their rotation was in tact for the "large majority" of the season you say they were together..

this team was a combined 90 games over .500 the last two years..so they couldn't have sucked that bad..they obviously aren't the same team when you take 50 pts/night away from what they had last year (when you consider lebron's point and assist totals)..

sure they struggled in the playoffs..it happens to the best of teams..but the fact of the matter remains that when the going got tough..lebron got going to miami to hide behind dwayne wade...

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Kobe fan #1 and the band of Lebron's lynchmob on here STILL don't acknowledge how bad his team last season (and seasons prior) really were.

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A) I'm no Kobe fan, if you're talking about me
B) As late as last year I always defended Lebron and I can't find the thread, but last year called him the most talented player in the league, hands down

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doesn't change the fact that the rotation has largely been exactly the same as last season less Ilgauskas and Lebron for the large majority of the season... and they are still getting rolled

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As mentioned, there have been a lot of injuries. Also, you can't take Lebron's stats out of the lineup and expect that you'll still win games. Part of my argument about Lebron "not making his teammates better" was the fact that he had good talent around him, but was still trying to do everything himself. When you have that situation, and then you remove the walking triple-double from the lineup, you're going to have trouble NO MATTER how good your role players are.

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But but... I thought it was strictly about basketball discussion with you here and nothing else!

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Fine, whatever. Lets make a pact that from here on out, neither of us get personal with it (which, I didn't anyway), and see who violates that agreement first. Only complete civility from now on, agreed?

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varajao..jamison..gibson..williams have missed time this season..the cavs this year were a .500 team when their rotation was in tact for the "large majority" of the season you say they were together..

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Varajao - 7 games missed
Jamison - 3 games missed
Gibson - 6 games missed
Williams - 7 games missed

Sure, they've had injuries, but don't start pretending like they've been rocked by them.

They haven't been a .500 team since game 10 of the year... teams played in that stretch:

Boston
Toronto
Sacramento
Atlanta
Philly twice
Washington
Jersey twice
Indiana

... so basically a lot of trash, Boston and Atlanta.

Through 39 games...

'08-'09 Cleveland Cavs (31-8)
'09-'10 Cleveland Cavs (29-10)

And that was with a crappy supporting cast of scrubs... with a new team filled with All-Star supporting castmates, he can surely best that!

'10-11 Miami Heat (30-9)

so by ATM's logic...

if/when the Heat wash out earlier than the conference finals this year, Miami has some of the worst supporting cast in the nba around lebron (including bosh and wade).

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Through 39 games...

'08-'09 Cleveland Cavs (31-8)
'09-'10 Cleveland Cavs (29-10)

And that was with a crappy supporting cast of scrubs... with a new team filled with All-Star supporting castmates, he can surely best that!

'10-11 Miami Heat (30-9)

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Without taking either side of the argument, this little factoid doesn't mean a whole lot considering that a revamped roster takes some time to gel and that the Heat have won something like 19 of their past 20.

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Simplebay1:58p
ATM...did you read wheelsoff's posted at all?

the cavs are hurt. have players lebron never played with. and have been psychologically beat down by lebron's effing them in the butt with the decision. the players he played with are not nearly as bad as they are playing right now. (remember when the cavs refused to trade hickson for amare)

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So you're saying that Lebron elevated the play of his teammates. Got it. Good insight.

There is no doubt that Lebron made Mo William an all-star and made Varejao a perennial all-defense player. He made his teammates better than they should have been, and that is being proved this year.

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so by ATM's logic...

if/when the Heat wash out earlier than the conference finals this year, Miami has some of the worst supporting cast in the nba around lebron (including bosh and wade).

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I look at the playoffs like the great equalizer. NBA teams travel around and play 3 or 4 different teams every week. Scheming and gameplanning for individual teams who probably haven't faced you for more than a month is VERY different than playing 1 team for 2 weeks straight. It's so much easier to expose, plan, and ultimately take advantage of the other teams weaknesses. That's why when it comes down to it, I really think that 95% of the playoffs boil down to who has the strongest 4 players playing the best during that 2 month stretch.

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A) I'm no Kobe fan, if you're talking about me
B) As late as last year I always defended Lebron and I can't find the thread, but last year called him the most talented player in the league, hands down

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A was directed at Kobe's boyfriend... we all know who that is. As far as civility, you got it. It isn't that important to me as this is all fun and games for me, but if it's important to you, deal. Sorry, but 'good talent' wouldn't be getting trucked this badly.

My position on Lebron hasn't changed. Is he an a-hole? Probably. The Decision? Terrible. Choice of team? A little weak, but his choice. But the dogs on him leaving the Cavs high and dry, etc. etc. are bunk. He gave them 7 seasons to build a great team. Some of it was bad luck (Larry Hughes crapping out), but mostly it was bad personnel moves via trade and draft that left them in a long-term conundrum. The Cavs fumbled badly on this one. They have been and continue to be one of the worst run franchises in the NBA (even through the Lebron years)... and they should be getting butchered for the product on the floor, not Lebron.

The real answer lies somewhere in the middle. The Cavs had some nice pieces that could be integral role players for Championship teams. If you put Varajao next to Duncan on the Spurs, I think you'd have a very nice fit. They weren't filled with a bunch of Mookie Blaylocks. However, Lebron did lack a true #2 player. The #2 players he has played with should be #3 or #4 at best in any Championship lineup. Mo Williams, Fat Shaq, Jamison, Booby are all players that have played Lebron's side kick, and they are nowhere close to what a #2 player on a championship team should look like. Just look back:

2010 -- Lakers (Gasol/Odom)
2009 -- Lakers (Gasol/Odom)
2008 -- Celtics (Pierce/Allen)
2007 -- Spurs (Manu/TP)
2006 -- Pistsons (Rip/Sheed/Tayshaun)
Early 2000 Lakers had Shaq/Kobe combo
1990s Bulls had Pippen
First Rockets Championship didn't have a big #2 guy, but the 5th guy in that lineup (Otis Thorpe?) was better than the 2nd guy in any Cleveland lineup.
Second Rockets Championship had Drexler.

I dont understand the debate. Yes, the Cavs suck without Lebron. He's the best player in the league and ripped the heart out of an entire city. He'll have a better chance of winning in Miami. Yes, all true.

But its also true that he's a d*ck for leaving the way he did. I'll never be a labron fan because he's the kid in the schoolyard who switches sides to be on the winning team. Its the same reason I don't like shaq. I know I'm not alone.

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But its also true that he's a d*ck for leaving the way he did

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For leaving the way he did is the key phrase. I agree the way he left re: The Decision and all was ****ty in every way. But I certainly don't blame him for leaving that situation.

Lebron's supporting cast wasn't that bad.

But it didn't really matter who Lebron's teammates where. They were irrelevant. The offense was James with the ball and four dudes watching. And that came from Lebron and the coach.

You rarely see him beat his guy, draw the double-team and pass to teammate for easy layup. Or when the opponent was cheating on him, you never saw the other Cavs beat them 4v3.

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You rarely see him beat his guy, draw the double-team and pass to teammate for easy layup. Or when the opponent was cheating on him, you never saw the other Cavs beat them 4v3.

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You're talking about a guy who averaged 8.6 apg. He did that kind of thing constantly, which is why Mo Williams was an all-star, Big Z appeared to be a solid basketball player way past his prime, and guys like Gibson, Varejao, and Delonte West all looked like good players for a couple years.

Take Lebron out and you don't have an "ok" team, which is what you would have if you took any one player from the Lakers, Spurs, Magic, Mavs, or Celtics. Unless your contention is that Zydrunas Ilgauskas was the difference maker, Lebron elevated that team far above where it should have been.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 1/12/2011 7:00p).]

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You rarely see him beat his guy, draw the double-team and pass to teammate for easy layup.

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You didn't watch him play much in Cleveland did you? The offense was almost entirely predicated on that for about 6 seasons.

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Take Lebron out and you don't have an "ok" team, which is what you would have if you took any one player from the Lakers, Spurs, Magic, Mavs, or Celtics. Unless your contention is that Zydrunas Ilgauskas was the difference maker, Lebron elevated that team far above where it should have been.

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This nails it.

James got plenty of assists but he never created for teammates. When he hit a wall and ran out of ideas - he threw it to a teammate.

The Cavs went from being one of the best (top 10) FG% teams in the league to one of the worst this year and you want to claim James didn't create open shots for his teammates? I LOL'd. Again, hate the guy all you want, but you can't call him anything other than a great teammate and player on the court in Cleveland.

Bird man, you're wrong. Sorry. And I'm a bron hater.

I agree with what birdman is saying. Allen Iverson was the same way. He got a lot of assists, not because he "facilitated" the offense, but because the ball was always in his hands, and when he ran into a jam he would kick it out. I 100% agree with that.

Every once in a while Lebron would have one of those "let the game come to me" games, and he would facilitate the offense, and the Cavs were really, really good in those situations. Most of the time he just black-holed it, which, admittedly was still good for 60 wins a year.