got me thinking.

I grew up with MJ and I believe he was one of the best scorers in the game. Maybe the best in late game situations (some argue Kobie--another topic).

However, the league was different in MJ's time. No zone, not a lot of double/triple teams, and frankly you could get away with murder an the referees would swallow their whistles.

So...MJ or James?

Who has the potential to be the best player of all time? Who has the better marketing campaign?

I am biased towards MJ but James I would build a team around in a heart beat and I believe will be the best overall player the league has seen to date.

Discuss.

Call me when Lebron has six championships.

MJ never lost in the Finals, and definitely not twice in a row.

Jordan and it's not even close.

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Call me when Lebron has six championships

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dumbest argument in the history of arguments. is robert horry a better basketball player than karl malone?

Lebron is somewhere between jock-washer and floor sweeper on the Jordan Scale of Greatness.

Robert Horry wasn't the main reason that those teams won...

This guy's 11 NBA championships would like to hear how this argument turns out.

Number of championships is not the be all, end all trump card when you are comparing players with similar number of championships. If it were, then all debates about who is the greatest would be pretty short. Russell would be the de facto greatest basketball player, and Yogi Berra would be the greatest baseball player of all time.

However, six championships versus zero is pretty conclusive. Let's revisit this if/when Lebron gets to four rings.

even if lebron wins 7 he's not better than mj

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MJ never lost in the Finals, and definitely not twice in a row.

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Yes. It was much more impressive to be taken out three straight years by the Detroit Pistons.


Look, I like to make fun of and cheer against LBJ as anyone, but some of the things used against LBJ (and Kobe) in these debates is laughable.

I have no problem saying Jordan is the best ever, but even the greatest needed quality play from teammates to win championships.

Stop making sense Iowaggie.

Michael Jordan didn't leave Chicago to team up with Magic Johnson to win his first championship.

not a huge fan of the "winning championships" only because your supporting cast could be as much the reason as you. IMO, the number one stat for me for MJ is 6 Finals MVP.

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Incorrect, sir!
posted 4:14p, 05/31/11



Michael Jordan didn't leave Chicago to team up with Magic Johnson to win his first championship.

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Well done.

"Michael Jordan didn't leave Chicago to team up with another top 50 NBA player to win his first championship because he already had one on his team named Scotty Pippen."

FIFY

[This message has been edited by bayouaggie (edited 5/31/2011 7:03p).]

And I think the discussion at this point in Lebron's career is stupid. Lebron James is only 26 years old. Let's count his MVPs and championships when he is 35 then start having the discussion of Lebron vs. Jordan.

I'm one of the few Lebron fans, but MJ is in another league.

The closest current guy's resume is Kobe, and he is not close to what MJ was.


I could see Lebron getting up there though, especially if his jumper continues to improve.

MJ is a legend and he played when the league was at its best IMO.

jordan had incredible drive..he took his lumps from the celtics and the pistons early in his career..but he sucked it up..and as they say when the going got tough..he got going..

lebron doesnt have that drive as witnessed by his performance in the playoffs last year..and when the going got tough in cleveland..he got going to south beach..

sure..lebron will probably win 3 or 4 or 5 rings..but his rep is tarnished for quitting on his hometown fans...

Jordan never quit on his team in a playoff series.

I'm in the camp of not really close. I don't see any reason LeBron does not end up in the hall of fame one day. He may even end up breaking some of MJ's records, at every age he plays he will always have 4 more years of NBA time than Jordan at the same age by skipping college.

From a purely statistical standpoint. LeBron is not tracking better than MJ in his first 8 seasons from a points perspective. This includes a season were MJ missed something like 60 games with a broken something. So already MJ has more points with 50-60 less games played by the end of each of their eighth years.

From a marketing perspective it will never be close. LeBron simply is not as marketable as MJ. He never will be. Not to mention MJ's rise corresponded with the rise of Nike as the top athletic company in the world. MJ could just about sell anything and be used to sell anything. LeBron is limited in this regard.

Comparison of Lebron James to Michael Jordan through their first eight seasons. I'll even give James the benefit of the doubt and give him a championship and finals MVP for this year.

Pts/game: Jordan-32.3 Lebron - 27.7
Reb/game: Jordan-6.3 Lebron - 7.1
Assists/game: Jordan-6.0 Lebron - 7.0
FG%: Jordan-51.9% Lebron - 47.9%
3PT%: Jordan - 28.4% Lebron - 32.9%
FT%: Jordan - 84.7% Lebron - 74.4%
Steals/game: Jordan - 2.71 Lebron - 1.72
Blocks/game: Jordan - 1.06 Lebron - 0.85
MVP awards: Jordan - 3 Lebron - 2
All-NBA 1st team: Jordan - 6 Lebron - 5
Defensive 1st team: Jordan - 5 Lebron - 3
DPOY: Jordan – 1 Lebron - 0
All-Star Games: Jordan – 8 Lebron - 7
Scoring Leader: Jordan – 6 Lebron - 1
Steals Leader: Jordan – 2 Lebron - 0

Playoff Appearances: Jordan – 8 Lebron - 6
Playoff Pts/game: Jordan - 34.6 Lebron - 28.7
Playoff Reb/game: Jordan - 6.7 Lebron - 8.5
Playoff Ass/game: Jordan - 6.8 Lebron - 7.0
Playoff FG%: Jordan - 50.7% Lebron - 46.0%
Playoff 3PT%: Jordan - 33.7% Lebron - 32.9%
Playoff FT%: Jordan - 84.0% Lebron - 74.9%
Playoff Stls/game: Jordan - 2.38 Lebron - 1.64
Playoff Blks/game: Jordan - 1.00 Lebron - 1.05
Championships: Jordan – 2 Lebron - 1?
Finals MVPs: Jordan – 2 Lebron - 1?

Lebron is really good and has a chance to go down as the best of his era, but he’s not Jordan. It’s not even really close to me. I think people forget how complete and all-around Jordan was. *cough*pippen*cough*

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Call me when Lebron has six championships.

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Is that the only arguement you have?

It's the ONLY arguement I need Shawn!!!

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Michael Jordan didn't leave Chicago to team up with Magic Johnson to win his first championship.

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"Michael Jordan didn't leave Chicago to team up with another top 50 NBA player to win his first championship because he already had one on his team named Scotty Pippen."

FIFY

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Exactly...I'm not sure why people look at the Heat's big 3 any different than Boston's current or former big 3's, the Pistons big 3, the Lakers multiple big 3's, etc...

Jordan didn't need to leave, he had a top 50 all-time player on the roster already, and later got one of the best Rebounders to play the game. Having said that, it's Jordan

The Lakers, Celtics, Spurs, Bulls, etc didn't spend multiple years orchastrating a mass movement of them to one team.

Players forcing the movement as compared to the teams working to improve them are different things.

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The Lakers, Celtics, Spurs, Bulls, etc didn't spend multiple years orchastrating a mass movement of them to one team.

Players forcing the movement as compared to the teams working to improve them are different things.

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Wasn't Bosh and James (and Wade for that matter) free agents? They didn't orchestrate anything. In fact, they all took less money than they could've to play together. How is that a bad thing?

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I'm in the camp of not really close. I don't see any reason LeBron does not end up in the hall of fame one day. He may even end up breaking some of MJ's records, at every age he plays he will always have 4 more years of NBA time than Jordan at the same age by skipping college.

From a purely statistical standpoint. LeBron is not tracking better than MJ in his first 8 seasons from a points perspective. This includes a season were MJ missed something like 60 games with a broken something. So already MJ has more points with 50-60 less games played by the end of each of their eighth years.

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then don't you also have to account for the factor of coming into the league 4 yrs more mature (both physically and mentally) vs straight out of HS?

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They didn't orchestrate anything.

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Not that you had any credibility, but if you did, it would be lost.

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Not that you had any credibility, but if you did, it would be lost.

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As free agent I'm pretty sure that any player can sign w/ any team, or is that fact escaping you at this point?

If by orchestrate you mean they decided to play together AS FREE AGENTS I'm not sure why you're crying about it. They were all available for the taking and they choose to play together.

James will never surpass Jordan in many people's eyes because of The Decision.

James will never average 30 points for his career..... not because he can't but because he chooses not to. James is too unselfish to be considered the best...to a fault. Jordan was only unselfish when he needed to be to win, to be the best.

Jordan wanted to show every player that ever guarded him that he was the best. James does not do that.


PS
Bill Russel deserves to be in the talk for the greatest player. Stats were not kept at the time but he reportedly averaged about 8 blocks per game to go with his 22 rebounds 11 rings and 5 finals MVPs for his career.

Also Wilt:

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In his first NBA game, vs. the Knicks, Wilt scored 43 points, had 28 rebounds, and according to press reports, blocked 17 shots.

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and, Jordan is the GOAT.

[This message has been edited by BBDP (edited 6/2/2011 1:55p).]

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Bill Russel deserves to be in the talk for the greatest player. Stats were not kept at the time but he reportedly averaged about 8 blocks per game to go with his 22 rebounds 11 rings and 5 finals MVPs for his career.

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Yeah, but goaltending wasn't always illegal. And everyone in the NBA besides him and Wilt were 6'5 white guys with glasses and short shorts.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 6/2/2011 1:59p).]

From what I found, defensive goal tending was enforced in 45.... before BR played (he started in 56).

And he averaged 25 rebounds against Wilt.....

Also, the height in the league at that time was taller than you think.


[This message has been edited by BBDP (edited 6/2/2011 2:09p).]

Stolen from the internet:

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Let's take a random season of the 60's: 1964.

The data of the heights for all NBA teams is the following, starting from the bottom ones:

-New York had 2 players listed at Russell's height and also occasionally used a 3rd player of the same height and a 4th player who was taller. Also, only 1 player of the Knicks was listed below 6-2 barefoot.

-Detroit had 2 players taller than Russell and a third one at the same height. Also, only 2 of their players were listed below 6-3.

-Baltimore had 1 player taller than Russell. 2 more players at Russell's height played for few games. No player below 6-2.

-Philadelphia had 2 players at Russell's height.

-Lakers had 2 players taller than Russell and a third one equal. No-one listed below 6-2 (that was Jerry West).

-St.Louis had 2 players as tall as Russell and for a few games used a taller one.

-Cincinnati (possibly the shortest team in the league) had no players as tall as Russell, but they did have 4 players who were 1 inch shorter.

-San Francisco had 2 players taller than Russell and a third one just as tall.

-Boston had Russell and Clyde Lovelette, who was as tall and heavier than Russell. Surprisingly, the Celtics were also a short team (bottom 2 that season, probably), but that didn't stop them from posting the best record in the league by far (59-21) and winning the playoffs with an equal ease.

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Let's not forget that Jordan would have won or should I say have the potential to have won more championships had he not ventured into baseball.

As a guy who has seen both players play I can say both were and are unstoppable. Jordan played when real defense was played. You had to get absolutely hammered to get a foul called and even still they might not blow the whistle. James can drive to the basket and someone be in the same viscinity and the whistle blows. Jordan made everyone else around him better. In my opinion Pippen gets credit for being a top 50 because he played a very important part in a dynasty. If Pippen plays for another team he doesn't get the rings, and he wouldn't have been considered a top 50 player. I'm fairly certain that if Jordan played with Wade and Bosh he could have made that work quite nicely.

Give me Jordan for making everyone else around him much better. People followed his drive, leadership, and tenacity for playing the game.

And...he was the better player.