quote:

---

then don't you also have to account for the factor of coming into the league 4 yrs more mature (both physically and mentally) vs straight out of HS?

---

There was 2 years difference... not 4

Jordan came out after his Sophomore year.

[This message has been edited by BBDP (edited 6/2/2011 2:41p).]

quote:

---

Jordan made everyone else around him better. In my opinion Pippen gets credit for being a top 50 because he played a very important part in a dynasty. If Pippen plays for another team he doesn't get the rings, and he wouldn't have been considered a top 50 player. I'm fairly certain that if Jordan played with Wade and Bosh he could have made that work quite nicely.

---

how did the Bulls fare when Jordan was playing baseball? how about the Cavs before and after James?

The Bulls were a LOT better during the Jordan baseball years than the Cavs were/are without LeBandwagon.

quote:

---

From what I found, defensive goal tending was enforced in 45.... before BR played (he started in 56).

---

Do we know that they call it the same way then as they do now?

quote:

---

The Bulls were a LOT better during the Jordan baseball years than the Cavs were/are without LeBandwagon.

---

The bulls also had Pippen while the Cavs had Daniel Gibson.

wait, there's an actual debate as to whom is better: Jordan or Lebron?

quote:

---

Do we know that they call it the same way then as they do now?

---

There was a modification to it in 2001+/- but other than that, I think it it is the same.

Jordan didn't choke away games like this.

quote:

---

There was 2 years difference... not 4

Jordan came out after his Sophomore year.

---

Split the difference. MJ spent three years at UNC.

Yeah, this game didn't help James' case

quote:

---

Is that the only arguement you have?

It's the ONLY arguement I need Shawn!!!

---

It kills me every time this commercial comes on.

Funny because it's true.

Some defensive stats for you.

LeBron's highest steal total in any season was 177 and that was by far his best mark. The 2nd best was 138. Jordan had NINE seasons with at least 180 steals. LBJ has averaged 135 steals per season. Jordan averaged 168 per season and that includes his 2nd year where he only played 18 games due to injury, his "comeback" season where he only played 17 games, and his two years with the Wizards. If you take it to a per game level, LBJ is at 1.72 and Jordan finished at 2.35 for his career.

LeBron's highest block total in a season was 93 (second highest of 81). Jordan had two seasons over 125. LeBron has been slightly more consistent in this category over his career, but at his best he couldn't touch Jordan. As his block numbers decrease as his career continues (they've gone down the last 2 years), Jordan will probably have the better career numbers in the end.

quote:

---

LeBron's highest steal total in any season was 177 and that was by far his best mark. The 2nd best was 138. Jordan had NINE seasons with at least 180 steals. LBJ has averaged 135 steals per season. Jordan averaged 168 per season and that includes his 2nd year where he only played 18 games due to injury, his "comeback" season where he only played 17 games, and his two years with the Wizards. If you take it to a per game level, LBJ is at 1.72 and Jordan finished at 2.35 for his career.

---

The NBA has also changed the defensive perimeter rules dramatically since Jordan was averaging 2.5+ spg in the 80s.

From 1998 until this year, only three players have led the league with more than 200 steals in a season. From 1973-1997, no league leader has less than 200 steals.


Not quite fair to compare it as Apples to Apples when Jordan was able to hand check and body up more than Bron can.

quote:

---

Not quite fair to compare it as Apples to Apples when Jordan was able to hand check and body up more than Bron can.

---

So LeBron should be scoring more and shooting at a higher percentage, right?

quote:

---

So LeBron should be scoring more and shooting at a higher percentage, right?

---

It doesn't seem like that is in line with the league trends, is it?

quote:

---

It doesn't seem like that is in line with the league trends, is it?

---

At the risk of seeming dense, I'm not sure what you mean. My point was simply, that if the league has tightened the standards for what is acceptable on defense, then shooting and scoring should be easier for everyone, and certainly for players of equal or greater ability than Jordan. If the stats say that is not the case, I am all ears.

For the record, its kind of premature to compare Lebron's entire career to Jordan's entire career at this point. Perhaps you can compare their first six years or however long Lebron has been in the league, but that's about it.

quote:

---

At the risk of seeming dense, I'm not sure what you mean. My point was simply, that if the league has tightened the standards for what is acceptable on defense, then shooting and scoring should be easier for everyone, and certainly for players of equal or greater ability than Jordan. If the stats say that is not the case, I am all ears.

---

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/league_stats.html

Here is a little run down of average league stats.

1984 vs 2007:
.492 FG% .458
88.4 FGA/game 79.7
29.7 FTA/game 26.1
26.2 APG 21.3
8.5 SPG 7.2
5.3 BPG 4.6
17.9 TO/G 15.1
110.1 PPG 98.7

So it looks like teams and players aren't quite racking up the same stats as they did in the mid-80s when Jordan was pure greatness. Pretty much everything is down across the board. And if you are comparing two players between two eras, that should be taken into account.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 6/3/2011 10:06a).]

So they've made it harder for defenders to stop superstars, yet those stars aren't producing at the level they were 15 years ago? Sounds like you just closed the case on Bron Bron.

"how did the Bulls fare when Jordan was playing baseball? how about the Cavs before and after James?"

Here is the point that you guys don't see. Jordan MADE his team better. Lebron is a great talent that doesn't make those around him better. That was seen tonight. Lebron never involved his teamates in the 4th quarter. Jordan's leadership rubbed off on others much like Magic and Bird's leadership did. Jordan's teamates knew if they worked off the ball and they were open Jordan would find them because he had confidence in their abilities to make shots. Lebron would rather shoot an off balance 3 10 feet behind the line then find an open shooter. It's all about him..always has been. Jordan was about winning at all costs.

Good players make others better. Lebron has yet to figure that out. The Bulls had 1 good season after Jordan left due to Jordan's influence. 2nd season Jordan's influence starting leaving the team and they were terrible. Lebron never left an influence besides a selfish egotystical mark that quit on them.

quote:

---

Jordan's teamates knew if they worked off the ball and they were open Jordan would find them because he had confidence in their abilities to make shots.

---

1. What did anybody that Lebron ever play with in Cleveland ever do to earn that confidence.

2. You should read about Jordan... specifically the book about him in Washington. That guy had no confidence in anybody and wasn't shy to express that in practice, the media, or on the court itself.

Because someone wrote it in a book that must mean it's true.

Just jumping in at the end here without reading, but if you think TheBron is even remotely close to MJ, you don't know what you're talking about. It's that simple.

MJ












Everyone else.

quote:

---

Jordan never quit on his team in a playoff series.

---

+1

"What did anybody that Lebron ever play with in Cleveland ever do to earn that confidence."

Watch the games. Lebron's teamates stand around watching him play knowing that he is going to take the shot no matter how hard they try and get open. Look late at last night's game. If a teamate got it they were so shocked they just gave it right back. Lebron doesn't have what Jordan had. Lebron's whole life has been about him. Jordan had to fight through being cut on a high school team. Lebron was already a celebrity. Jordan stayed on ONE team and fought through the disappointments year after year. Lebron quit and went somewhere else. Jordan had to fight through defenses that were allowed to maul him. Lebron gets touch foul after touch foul. Jordan doesn't blow that game last night..Lebron did. You are probably a young pup who never got to fully see who Jordan was. For that I'm sorry.

quote:

---

Because someone wrote it in a book that must mean it's true.

---

When MULTIPLE sportswriters have written about it, teammates have spoken about it, and even Jackson's said it, I'd take it to be pretty true.

No doubt, that Jordan is the GOAT. I just take issue w/ the idea that James isn't a team player. That guy was the best distributor in Cleveland and, while being pretty arrogant, I think he's one of the few players who just 'get it' on the court in terms of being a team player. Anybody who watched many of his games in Cleveland know that, for the most part, if his teammates were open, Lebron got them the ball.

And the idea that MJ didn't ditch his team is bunk. His teams had lots of talent including a player who was a runner-up MVP when he played baseball. Players that have crappy teams either threaten to leave or leave all the time when the team just isn't there: Kobe, (H)akeem, Barkley... all guys who either walked or THREATENED to walk until their management got serious about building a great team around them. This is what great players do... they are generally great, because they understand the game and know that they can't do it alone... so if MJ didn't have Pippen, do you think he'd just waste his career in Chicago? Methinks not.

[This message has been edited by ATM9000 (edited 6/3/2011 1:04p).]

quote:

---

1984 vs 2007

---

1984 was the peek of the NBA or close to it.

Also, it is commonly stated that the skill level took a nose dive after Jordan and Wilkins had those spectacular dunk contest. Generally speaking, I agree. Post the FT % difference also.... nothing has changed there, but I would guess that 2007 is lower.

quote:

---

Watch the games. Lebron's teamates stand around watching him play knowing that he is going to take the shot no matter how hard they try and get open.

---

As I recall, LJ passed way to much at Cleveland....IMHO. I am not sure you watched many of those games.


Also: Jordan got calls all the time... I agree that the defenses were better in the 80's and 90's but Jordan was bailed out more than most at the time.

And: Jordan played on some bad teams (they were only decent because of him) until 88 or so.

[This message has been edited by BBDP (edited 6/3/2011 1:26p).]

Are some people STILL trying to put Lebron in the same hemisphere as Jordan?

Just the morons.

quote:

---

Jordan never quit on his team in a playoff series

---

Jordan Flu Game. Some of yall on here may not be old enough to remember this game, but if LeBron was in the same situation, I doubt he would have got out of bed to play, let alone put on the performance Jordan did.

Two words ..... Space Jam !

Let me begin by stating that I don't think LeBron can sniff Jordan's jockstrap at this point in his career.

However, I think the Bulls during Jordan's baseball "sabbatical"/Cavs after LeBron left arguments are a little off.

The Cavs had a lot of injuries this season, Varejao, Jamison, hell I think even Gibson missed significant time. Those aren't great players or All-Stars by any means, but you have to admit they may have been a little less terrible if those guys actually got to play and they didn't have to start basically a D-League roster.

When did Jordan have a teammate take over a Finals game to get the Bulls a win? Was LeBron even playing in the 4th tonight?

quote:

---

When did Jordan have a teammate take over a Finals game to get the Bulls a win?

---

Game 6 92 Finals? Pippen and the scrubs w/ their infamous 14-2 run w/ Jordan on the bench? Ringing bells?

quote:

---

The Cavs had a lot of injuries this season, Varejao, Jamison, hell I think even Gibson missed significant time. Those aren't great players or All-Stars by any means, but you have to admit they may have been a little less terrible if those guys actually got to play and they didn't have to start basically a D-League roster.

---

Gotta be honest with yourself, even w/ those guys in play do you REALLY think the Cavs don't end the season w/ anything less than the 5th most ping pong balls?

how many finals mvp trophies did pippen win?