Obviously, Tim Duncan.

I think this is a testament of Pop's coaching and RC and Pop's scouting.

Leonard 15th pick
SJax 42nd pick
Green 46th pick
Manu 56th pick
Diaw 21st pick
Mills 55th pick
Neal undrafted
Splitter 28th pick
Bonner 45th pick
Parker 28th pick
Blair 37th pick

The NBA average is 5 lottery picks on each team.
This year the Mavs had:
Dirk 9th
Terry 10th
Marion 9th
Vince 5th
Wright 8th
Odom 4th
Kidd 2nd
Yi 6th

This year the Rockets had:
Camby 2nd
Flynn 6th
Jordan Hill 8th
Marcus Morris 14th
Patrick Patterson 14th
Thabeet 2nd
Terrence Williams 11th



Okie Thunder have
Durant 2nd
Collison 12th
Cole Aldrich 11th
Harden 3rd
Thabo 13th
Westbrook 4th

Celtics have
Ray Allen 5th
Dooling 10th
Garnett 1st
Pierce 10th
Pietrus 11th
Wilcox 8th

Miami has
Bron 1
Wade 5
Battier 6th
Bosh 4th
Eddy Curry 4th
Juwan Howard 5th
Mike MIller 5th


Just thought that was kind of a strange anomaly.

Definitely a combination of the GM and Coach being on the same page and knowing exactly the type of player they need for their system. So they find value in their low draft picks and they can sign/trade players that don't require huge salaries but fit the role well. And then of course tons of credit to Pop and his staff for coaching these guys up to be good, sometimes great, NBA players.

The biggest key, of course, to making it all work has been our 1 and only lottery pick Tim Duncan.

Exactly, the Rockets would have happily given up all their lottery picks for the spurs one

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Exactly, the Rockets would have happily given up all their lottery picks for the spurs one

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Obviously, Duncan is great and a guy like that comes very rarely.

However, the Rockets front office continues to be very overrated. They got lucky with Peter Holt making Pop give away Scola to cut salary and have been very mediocre otherwise.

All of it works because of Duncan and Robinson. If those guys aren't around so that the "raw" talents of Parker and Ginobili can be fostered, this whole thing is academic.

That said, the Spurs seem to find "diamonds in the rough" more often than not.

Parker
Ginobili
Hill
Scola
Leonard

I thought they were crazy trading Hill for an untested rookie who couldn't shoot. Leonard has showed me why I'm not the spurs GM.

that's a crazy stat. as my coworker just said, if you weren't already convinced Pop is the best coach in the NBA, this little bit of info should do just that.

wow.

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America's destiny is not of our own choosing. We did not seek nor did we provoke an assault on our freedom and our way of life. We did not expect nor did we invite a confrontation with evil. Yet the true measure of a people's strength is how they rise to master that moment when it does arrive.

Just my opinion, but I think this says a lot more about Tim, Tony, and Manu than it does about the coaching and/or front office.

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I think this is a testament of Pop's coaching and RC and Pop's scouting.

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Come on. There are a lot of measures for determining Pop/RC's worth. Number of lottery picks isn't it. It literally is all luck.

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Just my opinion, but I think this says a lot more about Tim, Tony, and Manu than it does about the coaching and/or front office.

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Agreed. I think the Blazers draft really well. Nobody saw Brandon Roy happening. And I still would've chosen Gred Oden over Durant. Many teams just catch bad breaks. Like the Celtics missing out on Duncan.

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Come on. There are a lot of measures for determining Pop/RC's worth. Number of lottery picks isn't it. It literally is all luck.

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Are you seriously going to stick with this? The Spurs just get lucky with a majority of their drafts, and other teams get unlucky? You're seriously sticking with this???

Tim Duncan was luck. Parker, Ginobili, Scola, Hill, Leonard drafts were not luck. Bowen, Green, SJax, Diaw was not luck. How come the Cavaliers didn't "luck out" with Danny Green, but the Spurs did.

That's some weak-ass trolling you're doing there.

The key to having a good NBA team:

-Have the No. 1 pick in the 1997 Draft
-Have the No. 1 pick in the 2004 Draft
-Have the No. 2 pick in the 2007 Draft
-Have the No. 1 pick in the 2008 Draft
-Trick the T-Wolves into giving you Kevin Garnett
-Trick the Grizzlies into giving you Pau Gasol
-Trick the Hornets into giving you Kobe Bryant for Vlade Divac
-Win the lottery on a seven foot German
-Be located in a trendy, tropical city that's easy to lure free agents to

There's alot of luck involved in grabbing those 1-2 impact players to put a team on the threashold of greatness. That's why I don't really fault Rockets management much.

Where the Spurs (and maybe the Bulls and Thunder to a lesser extent) have separated themselves is being able to find the quality system guys in odd places.

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And I still would've chosen Gred Oden over Durant.

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I wouldn't have. And there are probably Texags.com links that prove it. I guess Sam Presti took all of that "luck" with him when he left SA for the Sonics job!

Luck.

I think the Cavs of 2003-2010 were kind of the anti-Spurs. As holders of the No. 1 pick in 2003, they won the "NBA Good Team" lottery. But they weren't able to surround Lebron with the right pieces.

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But they weren't able to surround Lebron with the right pieces.

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So they were just unlucky then?

My assertion is that their front office failed to do so.

To be fair, the Cavs had a much harder task of surrounding Lebron than the Spurs did with Duncan. When Duncan was drafted, the Spurs were already a very good team with good peices. If I remember correctly, the Cavs were starting from nothing when they drafted Lebron.

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Come on. There are a lot of measures for determining Pop/RC's worth. Number of lottery picks isn't it. It literally is all luck.

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The fact that Pop and RC are acquiring other teams cast offs over and over and giving them a role on a dominant team says a lot about their scouting and coaching.

The Cavs best player was Ricky Davis. Ricky ****ing Davis.

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I wouldn't have. And there are probably Texags.com links that prove it. I guess Sam Presti took all of that "luck" with him when he left SA for the Sonics job!

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They had Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge. You're telling me they're wrong for taking Oden. With Brandon Roy turning into one of the best two guards in the league, Aldridge as versatile, jump shooting four, and Oden down low for defense and rebounding. That was a perfect fit.

I thought Kevin Durant would have been the better player even at the time, but there was no way I faulted the Blazers choosing Oden.

Mass. I agree with you. The luck is getting the 1-2 players. The skill is surrounding him/them with the right system and complimentary players.

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The fact that Pop and RC are acquiring other teams cast offs over and over and giving them a role on a dominant team says a lot about their scouting and coaching.

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Of course it does. But it's also a lot easier when you lucked into one of the 7-8 greatest players of all time anchoring your team.

Keith, I think that's a decent point. But they did have seven years and the best they could do was Ricky Davis, Antawn Jamison and Big Z.

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When Duncan was drafted, the Spurs were already a very good team with good peices.

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David Robinson - yes, a very good player for 2-3 more years before back trouble severly limited his play

Sean Elliot - yes, a very good player for 2 more years, before he had a kidney transplant and basically retired

Avery Johnson - you going to stick with your "very good pieces" argument at this point?

The Spurs roster in 2003 (when they started winning in the playoffs very consistently) was a complete overhaul of what was in place in Duncan's first years. Beyond that, look at what has happened to every other good team during Duncan's tenure. LA, Dallas, Phoenix, Miami, Cleveland, Boston, New Jersey, Detroit. All of these teams made it to the finals or conference finals multiple times. With the exception of Dallas, all of them have suffered some scenesence over the same time span.
So we're sticking with the fact that the Spurs are just "lucky"???

While I am not arguing that the Cavs have anywhere near a great front office, they did suround him with enough peices to get to the NBA finlas.

No, I'm sticking with my statement that the lack of lottery picks says more about the big 3 than it does about coaching/front office moves.

Another item to consider from that list: How many of those players have bad contracts?

Richard Jefferson was the only bad contract, and he was traded for a 2013 expiring contract.

I assume Duncan could be making Kobe money, but he has taken less over the years.

George Hill was traded before he demanded a big contract.

Parker and Ginobili were signed to extensions coming off down seasons. Neither can be considered overpaid, like so many other low draft picks who hit free agency at the right time. Parker and Gilbert Arenas are the same age, and were both in the 2001 draft.

I would rather compare Cleveland 2004 to Seattle/OKC 2007 as far as landing a franchise superstar on a young talentless team. The 1999 Spurs had a system in place, with a solid coach/GM/owner and hall of fame team leader.

Maybe with Cleveland there was too much hype and pressure to create an instant contender. I remember there was a lot of angst over Lebron missing the playoffs in his 2nd season, leading to even more pressure for Cleveland to get some pieces around him. But Durant was able to be on a horrible team for 2 years while they loaded up on lottery picks.

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 5/29/2012 11:22a).]

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all of them have suffered some scenesence over the same time span

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Learning new words on TexAgs.

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To be fair, the Cavs had a much harder task of surrounding Lebron than the Spurs did with Duncan. When Duncan was drafted, the Spurs were already a very good team with good peices. If I remember correctly, the Cavs were starting from nothing when they drafted Lebron.

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C: Z
PF: Boozer
SF: Bron
SG: Ricky Davis

That's a pretty solid start.

Then Cleveland traded Ricky Davis for the big fat nothing of: Tony Battie, Kedrick Brown and Eric Williams.

The year before LeBron arrived, Jim Paxson sent Andre Miller to the Clippers for Darius Miles.

So Bron could have started with:
Z
Boozer
James
Davis
Andre Miller

That's a pretty stout starting lineup.

The Cavs waived Matt Barnes.
Cavs drafted Brendan Haywood and traded him for Michael Doleac.
Year before Bron, they picked Dejuan Wagner over Nene, Amare, Caron Butler - hell pretty much everone after him was better.

Cleveland traded their 1st round pick in 2007 for Sasha Pavlovic in 2004. Sasha's best season was 3 years later when he averaged 9 ppg.

Cleveland drafted Luke Jackson 10th in the 2004 draft. Luke played 73 games in the NBA. Andris Biedrins, Al Jefferson, JR Smith, Josh Smith, Tony Allen, Kevin Martin were all taken later in the first round.

Just think if you don't **** up the Boozer extension and you draft Al Jefferson to replace Z. Now you have a front court of Boozer/Z/Jefferson to go with Bron. Or you get a scorer like KMart. or you get Josh Smith and have a dunk parade with Bron. You have the 10th pick in the draft and have a ton of options there to help LeBron.

Cleveland got stabbed in the back by Boozer, but they also ****ed that up.

Cleveland traded Tony Battie and two seconds for Drew Gooden and Anderson Varajao. Maybe their best deal while they had Bron.

In 2005, Cleveland traded an 07 first rounder for Jiri Welsch. Jiri scored 46 points for the Cavs that year and was then traded for a second rounder.

And then Danny Ferry takes over for Jim Paxson.

2005 Draft:
Cleveland has none. Why? They gave it to Phoenix in 1997for Tony Dumas and Wesley Person. Dumas played 7 games, scoring 14 points for Cleveland and then was out of the league. Person anchored several terrible Cleveland teams. Why does Cleveland suck? You traded 4 years of Wesley Person for the ability to get a real team better. That was the 13th pick and Danny Granger was picked 17th. Nate Robinson, Jarret Jack and Linas Kleiza were around, too.


Danny Ferry wasted no time signing Larry Hughes to a 5-year $70mm contract, killing any cap freedom Cleveland would have for years.

Took Shannon Brown in the first round and got Boobie in the second. I guess that was good.

2007 Draft. Oh yeah. No pick, because they traded it for Sasha a couple years ago. It would have been 22nd and it could have been Jared Dudley, Tiago Splitter, Aaron Brooks, Arron Affalo, Wilson Chandler, Carl Landry, Marc Gasol or Baby Davis.

2008: Trade deadline:
Cleveland trades Donyell Marshall, Drew Gooden, Ira Newble, Shannon Brown, Larry Hughes, Cedric Simmons for Joe Smith, Ben Wallace, Delonte West, Wally Z and a 2nd rounder
I guess getting rid of Larry Hughes and all his terrible shots was worth it. WallyZ was terrible and never contributed anything and no one wanted his expiring contract. Ben Wallace was equally terrible. Delonte actually contributed. To Gloria James.

2008 Draft: A PICK! 19th. JJ HIckson. He was actually the top scorer on the 2011 Cavs. But that was after Bron took his talents elsewhere. Could have been Courtney Lee, Serge Ibaka, Nicolas Batum, George Hill or Darrell Arthur. Ibaka or Arthur were the better picks if they wanted a post.

2009: Traded Sasha and Ben Wallace for Shaq. That worked out well for everyone.

2009 Draft: Cleveland picks someone from the Congo in the first round. No really.

2010: Deadline: Traded Z, 2010 1st rounder (they would have ****ed it up anyway), for Sebastain Telfair and 33-year old Antawn Jamison.

Name the big free agents Cleveland signed after Larry Hughes.

Cleveland sucked and sucked and sucked at surrounding LeBron. They ****ed up at pretty much every turn. They had the opportunities.

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I assume Duncan could be making Kobe money, but he has taken less over the years.

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Duncan has made 101.7mm the last 5 years. He isn't hurting. He hasn't taken THAT much less. And maybe he gets gifted a share of the team for taking less when he retires. Who knows.

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No, I'm sticking with my statement that the lack of lottery picks says more about the big 3 than it does about coaching/front office moves.

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Maybe we're getting into a chicken/egg thing here. But the point remains this: You say "big 3". Who had even heard of Manu Ginobili or Tony Parker before they were drafted by the Spurs? Hell, Manu was drafted after the '99 championship and STILL nobody had heard anything about him until he punked the US team at the 2002 world championships.

My point is this: the very premise of your argument, that the lack of lottery picks says a lot about the "big 3", rather than managment, is flawed by the fact that 2 of the "big 3" were spotted by Spurs managment LONG BEFORE anyone else in the basketball world even knew they existed.

[This message has been edited by MassAggie97 (edited 5/29/2012 12:44p).]

While the Spurs certainly got lucky to draft Duncan, the real story is what they have done otherwise to A)Maximize him and B)Put complementing talent around him. They truly built and rebuilt the team over and over again with that in mind.

The Spurs let a lot of FA's go that were controversial at the time (Remember Derek Anderson? How about letting SJax walk the first time?) They took care of Duncan as well early on to keep him from leaving when he hit FA twice before he was a "Spur for life". They figured out how to scout internationally long before everyone else in the NBA and they took a Moneyball approach to FA's. They did a masterful job of avoiding big contracts that would kill their cap space.

It is also revisionist history to think that when the Spurs drafted Duncan they were a model organization. Pop was under huge scrutiny for firing Bob Hill and replacing him during Robinson's injury year. Many folks in SA didn't really warm to Pop until his 2nd Championship and most did not until at least the first. They had Robinson but it was after injuries were slowing him, Elliot who was also slowing, and then a bunch of role players like Mario Elie and Avery Johnson. They also had the prospect of trying to get the AT&T Center built which was no sure thing and the fear the franchise itself might move.

Boiled down, there are those on this thread that don't believe that average draft pick over the past 10 years is a good indicator of the potential talent that has been acquired by a franchise.

What a friggin' joke. Why even have an NBA draft? It is all a crapshoot, right? If that's the case, they ought to let the Spurs draft a couple-or-three top-5 picks in a row like OKC did a few years ago. It wouldn't make any difference, right??? They just got lucky 15 years ago and have been coasting ever since? Correct?

[This message has been edited by MassAggie97 (edited 5/29/2012 12:55p).]

This is not to knock the Spurs scouting of draft picks, but I also believe that Pop/staff need to be given tremendous credit for player development.

It isn't just about finding that diamond in the rough because I think there are a lot of them out there, but the coaching staff deserves tremendous credit for developing those guys (and knowing which guys are willing to be developed and work on their game).

I think there are a significant number of players out there that went to other teams that had they gone to the Spurs, would have been much better off in their pro careers.

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Boiled down, there are those on this thread that don't believe that average draft pick over the past 10 years is a good indicator of the potential talent that has been acquired by a franchise.

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It's a simplistic approach. In many cases it completely disregards what happened between when a player was drafted and when they were acquired by the Spurs.

Pop is a great developer of talent. The Spurs have always been very good at scouting and developing foreign talent. There's no question about that.

When someone who enjoys watching and discussing college and professional ball looks at that list, he/she will see each individual circumstance regarding each player. Where they were drafted is mostly irrelevant. Some of those guys sucked/were relative unknowns until their potential was recognized by Spurs brass or they received Pops tutelage. Others were already established players in the league.

It's an interesting stat though.

RC Buford signed up with the Spurs as GM the year before Bron was drafted. Let's see his record:

2002:
Signed Stephen Jackson

Traded Antonio Daniels, Amal McCaskill and Charles Smith to the Portland Trail Blazers for Erick Barkley, Steve Kerr and a 2003 2nd round draft pick (Andreas Glyniadakis).
Probably on the losing end of talent, but Antonio was a problem (had recently knocked the F outta someone in a rec league game at a synagogue.)
Steve Kerr was a crucial role player for the Spurs title run in 2003, as all our Mav fans in the audience will attest to.

Signed Kevin Willis.
Signed Devin Brown as UFA.
Spurs win title in 03.

2003 Draft: Trade pick for Phoenix pick in 2005. Pick was Leandro Barbosa. Not sure he fit with SA, and the Spurs did it to have enough money to resign Tim Duncan with everyone else going after him. Josh Howard was drafted after Barbosa, who would have been killer for replacing Elliott.

Signed Rasho and Horry.

Traded Danny Ferry (who then retired) for Ron Mercer and Hedo TurkeyGlue. Huge plus for the Spurs.

2004 Draft: Drafted Beno. Became a decent backup PG, which the Spurs desperately needed. Later way overpaid by Sacramento. Could have been Varajao (not a need position) or Trevor Ariza (not a need position and didn't become a rotation player for several years.) Meh pick.

Signed Brent Barry.

Deadline: Traded Malik Rose and two first rounders (David Lee from the Phoenix-Barbosa trade and Mardy Collins) for Nazr Mohammed. Nazr was huge in the 2005 title, averaging 7/7 and allowing Duncan to stay out in the high post. Especially useful when the Spurs had to muscle up against Ben and Rasheed Wallace.

2005 draft. Ian Mahinmi drafted 28th. Based on potential+they could stash him and not have him go on the books. Super athletic. Super bust, if 28th picks are busts. David Lee was drafted 30th. Brandon Bass was 33rd. Monta Ellis 40th.

Signed Oberto. Huge steal for the Spurs. Lucky to have his buddy Manu in place.

Signed Mike Finley. Huge steal for the Spurs. Lucky he wanted to screw over Cuban by signing with a rival.

Traded Rasho for Matt Bonner+2nd rounder. Huge steal for the Spurs. Bonner is a regular rotation player and the Spurs didn't have to pay Rasho his final 3y/23mm.

2006 Draft: No first, traded to NYK for the 2005 ring with Nazr.

Signed Jacque Vaughn. Another smart veteran that became a solid contributor on a championship team.

Signed Jackie Butler. Thanks a lot, Larry Brown. Pop signed him based on LB's rec. Then we were over the LUX tax and had to get rid of him and it cost us Scola to do it.

Signed Francisco Elson. He took up Nazr's space on the championship run, and little else. Didn't quite hit, but didn't cost us much. Easily the best Dutch player in Spurs history, if you don't count the fact that Tony Parker's mom is Dutch.

2007 Draft:
28th Pick - Tiago Splitter. Pretty nice steal. Carl Landry could have made a more immediate impact at 31, but isn't the defender that Tiago is. Baby Davis at 35 would have been nice. Marc Gasol at 48 would have been really nice. But still - getting a rotational player/starter at 28th is a good draft.

Traded Jackie Butler and Luis Scola for cap space and a second. Terrible. Thanks Peter Holt.

Traded Beno Udrih and cash to the Minnesota Timberwolves for a 2008 2nd round draft pick. San Antonio did not receive the 2nd round draft pick because it was top 57 protected.
I mention it because it is kinda funny. Top 57 protected from the T-Pups after they give up their entire team.

Traded Brent Barry, Elson and a 1st in 09 (RoddyB!) for Kurt Thomas. Kurt was a pretty important player for the Spurs AND he was one of the best at guarding Duncan. So it was nice not to have him fall into the wrong hands when he is being fire saled. Good move.

Barry was cut and the Spurs resigned him because wasn't an idiot like Stackhouse and didn't say he was traded, will be cut then will resign.

2008 NBA Draft: 28th pick: George Hill. Big WTF at the time, but Pop was proven right. Finally a decent backup for Tony. I wanted Chalmers. DeAndre Jordan would have been nice, too. Spurs also got Goran Dragic with the 45th pick. Great pick by the Spurs. Great draft for the Spurs. Almost makes up for Mahnimi.

Trade Dragic for DeJuan Barkley. Pretty good move. Both teams probably win.

Signed Roger Mason. Hit some nice shots. Used what we could and then let him go.

Signed Drew Gooden. Got what we could out of that knucklehead.

2009 Draft: 1st rounder went to OKC in the Kurt Thomas Trade.

Trade Bowen, Oberto, Thomas for Richard Jefferson. While Jefferson sucks, two of those guys were retiring and Thomas was like 35. Great trade, even in hindsight. Extending Jefferson was not smart.

Signed Antonio McDyess
Signed Theo Ratliff

2010 Draft: 20th pick: James Anderson. Not a great pick, but only really Jordan Crawford and Landry Fields have been better of guys drafted behind him so far. And they both have been better on ****ty teams.

Signed Gary Neal as UFA.
Signed Danny Green

2011 Draft: Cory Joseph with 29th pick. Don't know much about him other than he doesn't play and he is a dirty, dirty Canadian.

Traded George Hill for Kawhi Leonard. Leonard is in a rookie contract, and Hill gets paid this offseason. Saves the Spurs MILLIONS and Leonard was a 1st Team All-Rookie. Huge win for the Spurs.

Signed Patty Mills
Signed Boris Diaw
Traded Dick Jefferson for Stephen Jackson. Saves the Spurs about 12mm (not including lux tax) and the Spurs get a player more suited to their system, a better defender and more swaggar.

Spurs have made some great moves to stay competitive. The only moves they have made in the last decade that stand out as terrible are the Richard Jefferson contract extension and the Ian Mahnimi draft pick.