A guy listening to a Yankees-Bosox game on the radio is a Mavs fan?

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with that said, he just chose the "easiest" route to another ring. A real man would have stayed with Boston or picked another team that the rest of world doesnt hate for winning the wrong way.

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Are you implying that people don't hate the Celtics? Because I think that is far from the truth if that is the case.

Also, how are the Heat any different from the Celtics championship a few years ago? Both teams went out and got 2 superstars to join the other superstar already there in hopes that they will have enough talent to get over the hump. I'm not sure why Ray is all of a sudden a villain for joining the Heat when he literally did the same thing 4 years ago when he joined Boston

You make a good point but I think the difference is Garnett and Allen wasted away for 12 years in the NBA wilderness before joining up on what was thought to be the last stage of their career. LBJ left his hometown team at the prime of his career to join another top 5-10 player in the league that had already won a title. It reeked of a if you can't beat them then join them type of move.

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You make a good point but I think the difference is Garnett and Allen wasted away for 12 years in the NBA wilderness before joining up on what was thought to be the last stage of their career. LBJ left his hometown team at the prime of his career to join another top 5-10 player in the league that had already won a title. It reeked of a if you can't beat them then join them type of move.

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Really? So there's a statue of limitations of whinning to get out of a city? Last time I check Garnett whinned his way out of Minnesota and LBJ left as a free agent.

Lebron played 7 years in Cleveland, 7 years in which the biggest moves to contend for a title were bringing in Larry Hughes, Mo Williams, Antawn Jamison, and 38 year old Shaq.

It was on the radio, **** me. I dont care for the Celtics either but something about the Heat just irks me.

Haha at people getting upset at Allen leaving. Why should he show loyalty to the same organization that had a deal to TRADE him to Memphis early this season!? Doc Rivers said this himself in April. Obviously they don't share the loyalty.

Good for Ray for going to the best team in the league for a chance at a another ring.

the most interesting thing in all of this is the Rondo/Allen stuff.

Ray is by all accounts a good guy and apparently his relationship with Rondo was awful at the end. I think almost all of Doc's "Rondo is the smartest guy i've ever coached" crap and a lot of the gushing over him is to make him feel wanted and feel like "The guy" on a team where he is likely the future with bigger names at the end of their careers...but Rondo has always been trash, going back to his college days.

He is supremely talented, but I've always seen him as potential lockerroom poison.

Will be very interesting to see how the Celts build around him when Pierce and Garnett leave...because without the veteran leadership of them(and Allen) I don't think a Rondo-led team has a shot in hell at a title.

Ray Allen is one of the smartest players in the league. This is a smart decision in many ways. However, leaving the Celts to join the team youcouldnt beat just wreaks.

Good on him.

The Celts treated him poorly, so he played through his contract without complaint then took the best deal for himself and his family.

He extended his career because all he has to do now is stand at the 3 point line and nail shots when his man leaves to double team.

I hate the Heat, but I am happy that Allen is going somewhere he is wanted and can contribute.

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Really? So there's a statue of limitations of whinning to get out of a city? Last time I check Garnett whinned his way out of Minnesota and LBJ left as a free agent.

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Your point might be taken more seriously if you knew how to spell.

Garnett and Allen lasted almost TWICE AS LONG before jumping ship and NEVER made it to an NBA Finals. LeBron not only went to the Finals but did it with his hometown team. Yes, his GM sucked but it was apparent that they were at least trying harder the longer he was there. And my point stands about joining with another top 10 player in the league. When's the last time the best player in the league did that as a free agent?

Staying in Cleveland would've been the easy thing to do. He could've kept putting up crazy numbers and won MVP after MVP and maybe never have won a championship but would've always had the built in excuse of being in Cleveland with no help.

Some of you saying he shoulde stayed there for a least a 'little' bit longer are being stupid. Staying in Cleveland for a little bit would not have been an option, he would've been stuck there for another 6-7 years with a team/owner/front office that had shown in the previous 7 years no ability at all to put other players around their superstar.

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Your point might be taken more seriously if you knew how to spell.

Garnett and Allen lasted almost TWICE AS LONG before jumping ship and NEVER made it to an NBA Finals. LeBron not only went to the Finals but did it with his hometown team. Yes, his GM sucked but it was apparent that they were at least trying harder the longer he was there. And my point stands about joining with another top 10 player in the league. When's the last time the best player in the league did that as a free agent?

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Only people that have nothing to offer become spelling nazi's...and your post proves that.

So there is a statue of limitations for wanting out off a team? So had Lebron stayed for at least 10 years you wouldn't have ill-will for him? You're forgetting a glaring difference...Garnett and Allen had to demand a TRADE while Lebron left as a FREE AGENT...that's the whole purpose of FREE AGENCY, to leave and go wherever you want.

So it's ok for Players to demand trades, but a player that leaves via free agency is a jerk for not wasting away on a garbage team...check.

I have no issue with a player leaving in free agency. It's a guy's life, and I don't fault anyone for choosing to live or work in a different place.



Quite frankly, I don't have a problem with a guy saying that he isn't going to re-sign with a team when his contract is over because that at least gives the team an opportunity to get something for nothing.

The thing with Carmello, CP3, and even Dwight Howard is we live in this media-hyper news era where everything is overreported. If a player is making comments on twitter or in the news about demanding a trade, that is one thing, but sometimes it is the team releasing that information, and then the news media constantly playing the story over and over that wears on many people.


My greatest issue is with players who sign the contract, and not work to fulfill it.

also...this needs to be said. While some people may think it is splitting hairs...people in Akron/Cleveland most certainly do not...

Cleveland is NOT Lebron's hometown team. He didn't grow up in Cleveland, and he didn't grow up rooting for them and dreaming to be a Cav. Folks from Akron can't stand always being lumped in with Cleveland as if they are practically the same thing.

It's like being from Fort Worth and having people say you're from Dallas.

Lebron owed them nothing. Funny, talked to someone recently about the sentiments of Lebron up there, and he said Akron doesn't care and still roots for him because that's HIS home town...but Cleveland is still ridiculously bitter.

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Only people that have nothing to offer become spelling nazi's...and your post proves that.

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Just making sure you don't belittle your degree my friend. People that graduate from Tier One universities should know the difference between statutes and statues. Since you've made the mistake in more than one post now, you obviously do not. And whining, well...

[This message has been edited by Look Out Below (edited 7/10/2012 4:01p).]

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also...this needs to be said. While some people may think it is splitting hairs...people in Akron/Cleveland most certainly do not...

Cleveland is NOT Lebron's hometown team. He didn't grow up in Cleveland, and he didn't grow up rooting for them and dreaming to be a Cav. Folks from Akron can't stand always being lumped in with Cleveland as if they are practically the same thing.

It's like being from Fort Worth and having people say you're from Dallas.

Lebron owed them nothing. Funny, talked to someone recently about the sentiments of Lebron up there, and he said Akron doesn't care and still roots for him because that's HIS home town...but Cleveland is still ridiculously bitter.

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+1...exactly...he didn't hold them hostage, he didn't promise them anything, nor did he owe them anything, and by the looks of things, he made the right decision.

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Just making sure you don't belittle your degree my friend. People that graduate from Tier One universities should know the difference between statutes and statues. Since you've made the mistake in more than one post now, you obviously do not. And whining, well...

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Classic...you made no reference to Lebron, Ray Allen, or anything basketball related, but merely took a shot at me...exactly what I meant when I said people that resort to playing the spelling nazi have absolutely nothing of value to offer...except to prove my point. Now please comb my post for anything that may be incorrect, since your worth, or lack there of has been well documented...thanks though, I needed a good laugh.

I wish Lebron would have stayed because he's one of the top 2-3 players in the league. I think it is better for the league for those guys to stay with 1 team throughout their prime and give that team an identity.

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I wish Lebron would have stayed because he's one of the top 2-3 players in the league. I think it is better for the league for those guys to stay with 1 team throughout their prime and give that team an identity.

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With the advent of better Free Agency rules enacted in the 90s, we see players sign else where all the time

I'm sure KG gives a rats ass about whether or not fans are mad that he didnt stay in the crap hole that is minnesota for his whole career

I agree, but I am talking about the top handful of players in the NBA. Shaq is the only other one that I can think of off the top of my head that is in that category and left via free agency.

You took exception to something I said in an earlier post and did so while sounding like an uneducated moron. Glad I could make you laugh though.

The difference in Shaq leaving was that the Lakers hadn't won a title in ~eight years and the best players on that team at the time he bailed were Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel. Fisher and Kobe were rookies -- and no one at the time, other than perhaps Jerry West, knew what they had in Kobe. I honestly think Shaq left more for the glitz and the chance to do career-related things not pertaining to basketball. My point is there was no DWade with a ring on his finger waiting on him. Hell, I'd even say Bosh might have been the best player on that team prior to Shaq arriving.

Lebron is unquestionably the best basketball player in the world. He was four wins away from winning a ring in Cleveland. He wasn't that far away. He simply lost his patience and took the easy way out.

[This message has been edited by Look Out Below (edited 7/10/2012 5:01p).]

Can you think of another top player that was in a situation like LeBron or Shaq? That was stuck in an organization that is mediocre at best with nothing around them? Garnett, but look how the bulk of his career played out. Stuck in Minnesota with little to no chance at a championship.

Re: Shaq to the Lakers. Sure... but on the other hand, he was headed to LA which was a FA/superstar haven as far back as the 60's. When Shaq arrived, if Kobe didn't turn out to be Kobe, is there any doubt at all that the Lakers would have found some second superstar to pair with him within a season or 2?

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Sources said there remains a possibility Heat swingman Mike Miller, who might need back surgery, could be ruled out for the season and Miami could receive a $2.9 million disabled player exception. If Miller ends up retiring, it would open up another roster spot.

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Neither Cleveland, nor Orlando (Shaq) were "mediocre at best" when they left. (Not that I fault them for leaving).


The Cavs were good enough to win 60+ games twice, have the #1 seed, and make it to the EC finals. LeBron was his own worst enemy for recruiting free agents there. "Hey come play with me in Cleveland", "I see you wearing your Yankees hat, are you going to be there in a year or two", "Maybe, maybe not", "Yep... not coming"

Likewise, with Shaq in Orlando, they were building a strong team, got to the NBA finals and had top (1st or 2nd) EC standings, but had the unfortunate opportunity of being the 2nd best team when Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman won 72 games.



Again, I don't fault them for leaving, but to say those were mediocre franchises they left behind is a falsehood.

What have those franchises ever accomplished to make them any more than mediocre? Better yet what have those franchises ever accomplished when a transcendent number one overall draft pick (LBJ, Shaq, Howard) wasnt handed to them? Nothing.

There is a reason neither one of those franchises has ever accomplished much of anything. Nobody wants to play for them.Why does nobody want to play for them? Because everything about those franchises (from the city they are in to their front offices to their owners) is mediocre at best.

In fact when these franchises aren't handed a transcendent number one overall pick in the draft they are far far worse than mediocre.

You were right about one thing though. LeBron and Shaq were their own worst enemies. They made their teams just good enough to keep them from getting lottery draft picks which is the only way those franchises would get better players. Because good free agents don't go to bad franchises.

So the Rockets and Spurs are mediocre franchises?

Did they not have (multiple) #1 picks handed to them?

The difference is that their #1 picks stuck around.

The Bulls were "gifted" Jordan at #3, but without him are a mediocre franchise.

In fact, with the exception of Boston and LA, what franchise aren't mediocre?

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So the Rockets and Spurs are mediocre franchises?

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Did they not have (multiple) #1 picks handed to them?

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Yes they did.

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The difference is that their #1 picks stuck around.

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No, the difference those franchises gave their #1 a reason to stay.
Within 7 years the Bulls had hired a coach that would end up being the greatest of all time and traded in the draft to get the #5 overall pick who would be a future HOF'er.
Within 7 years the Spurs hired an all time great coach in Pop, then got lucky again when Robinson got hurt so that they could suck enough to get the #1 overall pick, Tim Duncan. Then, just in case they needed to give Tim a reason to stay they built a great front office that identified players like Manu and Tony.

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The Bulls were "gifted" Jordan at #3, but without him are a mediocre franchise.

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Maybe they would be a mediocre franchise without MJ. But they did have MJ, and they took full advantage of it by putting Pippen and Phil around him. They are doing it now too building a good team around Derrick Rose.

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In fact, with the exception of Boston and LA, what franchise aren't mediocre?

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Right now I'd say the Spurs, Bulls, Lakers, Celtics, OKC, Pistons, Heat (now that Pat Riley is running the show and the Mavs are the good-great franchises.

I'd say the Nuggets, Jazz, Suns, Rockets, Philly, Nets (with new owner/city) are the next tier just above mediocre. They have had some consistent success and usually are willing to do anything to win.

The Magic, Indiana, Sac, New Orleans and Knicks are the mediocre organizations IMO. Seem to have had plenty of lucky breaks and opportunities to break thru but they never take advantage.

For the most part nobody else really matters in the grand scheme of things. They either have crazy owners/presidents or are just in really bad locations that make it impossible to get good players to come play for them.

Edit - Cokehead, had Mavs in the first group but must've accidentally deleted it.

[This message has been edited by 12thMan2012 (edited 7/11/2012 9:00a).]

[This message has been edited by 12thMan2012 (edited 7/11/2012 3:56p).]

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Teams like SA, HOU, and OKC have been fortunate enough to get high character guys that want to see their commitments through.

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The key word in that sentence is "GUYS"...plural...Lebron was alone in Cleveland. He had nothing around him whatsoever. San Antonio had Robinson with alot of legit role players then landed Duncan, Houston had the dream w/ a s*** ton of legit role players then got Drexler, and OKC has Durant, Westbrook, and Harden. Please show where Lebron had anything even remotely close to a team like that any year he was in Cleveland

If LeBron had broke his foot, and the Cavs pulled a Spurs in the mid-2000s, than drafted a Kevin Durant or Derrick Rose, we'd be gushing over what a great franchise they were.

The Bulls were such a well run franchise that they pushed out Phil Jackson, MJ, Pip and the rest after winning a championship. Jordan was 35 when that happend. He would play until he was 40. Clearly, Jackson and Pippen stuck around a little longer, too.

Those "mediocre" franchises of the Magic and Cavs have had more trips to the Finals since the Bulls forced out the greatest player of all time.


Your list of teams is just a snapshot of how things are now or how you want them to be.

Since the loss of Hakeem, the Rockets have been about the same as the Hornets and the Grizzlies.

The Magic and Cavs have been better than many of the teams you have listed. The Cavs won 66 games in one season; that doesn't happen just with LBJ and 4 pieces of s***.

My list of teams is how the NBA has been for the last 30+ years.

I had 14 teams being better than mediocre franchises. 60 of the last 66 NBA finalists came from those 14 franchises.

And you must be a Cleveland fan or something. Any knowledgeable NBA fan would probably put them in the bottom 10 if ranking NBA franchises.

KG and Ray didn't whine their way out of seattle and minnesota. Neither one of them demanded to be traded publicly the way carmelo did or howard is now doing. Their respective teams decided to trade them (for actual assets) with their blessing.

show me one article or piece of info that confirms they "whined" or "demanded". and neither ray nor KG was the best player in the league at the time they left.

what lebron did to cleveland is way worse.

He did nothing bad to Cleveland.