Even before these first two games for the Lakers I've seriously been wondering how exactly these moves will make them better.

Howard - I just don't think he's a winning player. Defensively he's a beast, no doubt. But offensively I think he's a liability and that's going to hurt this team. He's going to want his touches in the post and I think most teams would be fine with that over having Kobe create.

Nash - Is simply done IMO. I thought it last year watching the Suns and I was shocked the Lakers gave him 3 years and $27 million. Even in Nash's prime you could put a bigger defender on him in the playoffs and cause him trouble. Then on the defensive end he has no chance against all of the beastly PGs in the West. He's not fast anymore and his shot will continue to decline IMO. I love Nash but once again I just don't think he's a winning player anymore.

Then combine these guys and its confounding. Nash is a pick and roll guard. Has Howard ever run a successful pick and roll? Nash and Pau will probably play well together but when does Kobe get his turn? Oh and don't get me started about Coach Brown. He's never been that impressive and now he has a very challenging task in front of him. I just don't see it working out well.

Howard is not a liability offensively. I stopped reading your post after that.

Howard is only a liability when it comes to his FT shooting. Pairing Howard with Nash is good because Howard's defensive prowess can mask Nash being a poor defender and lessens the impact of the smaller guards blowing by Nash.

If this team ever finds their groove they will be scary good. Luckily their coach sucks and will under-utilize the talent while not game-planning to their strengths.

I should clarify. Howard is not as good as Bynum offensively. I just don't see how this makes them significantly better.

quote:

---

Howard is not as good as Bynum offensively

---

Based on what? Howard has been above 15 points/game since his rookie year. Bynum has done it twice in his career. Howard > > > Bynum.

Another fact: Bynum's career high in rebounds/game, last season, is worse than every season Dwight has had besides his rookie year.

quote:

---

Am I the only one who thinks Nash and Howard are overrated?

---

Yeah probably

Not sure why you think Nash is done. It's fairly remarkable that he had Phoenix in the playoff hunt up until the last week of the season last year, if I recall correctly, with that roster. It may have been even more impressive than the deep playoff runs the team made when he first got there. Having said that, I never thought his move to the Lakers was the best fit. I like Nash but I dislike the Lakers enough to hope that they fall flat on their faces this year.

Howard is not near game shape. He's played 3 games in 7 months. And look what he did last night. 33, 14, 5 on 15 shots.

If that's Howard on a slow night, he might actually be underrated.

All signs point to Lakers coaching staff destroying Steve Nash

Howard is the best center in the NBA and there is no number 2.

That said, I wonder where he would be in the mid-90s with the golden age of centers.

I would put him behind Hakeem and Robinson easily. They were both his equals defensively and much better offensively.

I'm not sure how I would rank him compared to guys like young Shaq and Ewing. Hes a better defender than both, but not the offensive player of either.

Does he fall to the Mourning, Mutombo level in that era?

I would have Shaq of that era and Mourning ahead of him easily.

Shaq yes. Mourning?

I think Mourning was as good defensively and I would trust him scoring better. Lifetime .692 FT shooter, so that isn't a liability either like it is with Howard. Plus Mourning was never the headcase that Howard has been.

quote:

---

and Mourning ahead of him easily.

---

Not sure if serious

I think Mourning was a slightly better defender than Howard. He was ferocious. The difference between Mourning and any other center of that era is that Alonzo went after EVERYTHING. He never cared if he was going to get dunked on (ex. Shaquille O'Neal). Because of that, he never ducked out of the way. Also because of that, he has the best highlight reel of getting dunked on.

The only other center from around that time that got dunked on more spectacularly was Shawn Bradley.

Howard > Mourning

So I think everyone would agree that Howard is definitely the best all around center in the game today... but nowhere near some of the greats. Despite his numbers I think he's failed to develop and he's underachieved. I don't think he'll make the Lakers that much better. I may be wrong but I just don't see them beating the Thunder or the Spurs with their current personnel.

quote:

---

Despite his numbers I think he's failed to develop and he's underachieved.

---

How? What basis are you judging him by?

He is a defensive force and his offensive game is over-scrutinized. He is an all star who single handedly put Orlando back on the map. I'm not sure how anyone can say he has underachieved. If he has underachieved, well you just have incredibly high standards that almost nobody can meet.

I think he has underachieved as well. He has all the physical tools to be an all-time great.

quote:

---

I'm not sure how anyone can say he has underachieved. If he has underachieved, well you just have incredibly high standards that almost nobody can meet.

---

A lot of "experts" think Howard has underachieved. Its not that far fetched. He put Orlando on his back and carried them where exactly? To the second round? I think he made the ECFinals once. That makes him a better superstar than Tracy McGrady but with his talent level I think you can expect more.

Dude, they were in the NBA Finals like 3 years ago, and they've been in the ECF multiple times...

Has he reached the potential afforded by his natural gifts?

Ag natural, if you watched the nba you'd know he took them to the nba finals.

Wow.

I guess Ag Natural isn't coming back to this thread anymore

Howard is underrated if anything. People think he's not great because his team hasn't won a title, but his playoff numbers are absurd. His best teammates have been who, The Incredible Vanishing Rashard Lewis, the ghost of Hedo Turkoglu, and Jameer "pretty good but not great" Nelson.

18.4 points on 57.7% shooting with 13 boards and 2.2 blocks in the regular season
19.9 points on 60% shooting with 14.4 boards and 2.8 blocks in the playoffs
3x DPOY
Led the NBA twice in blocks, 4 times in rebounds, once in FG%, and I suspect he had a couple top ten scoring seasons as well but that's tougher to check on without getting to a computer.

Great numbers, elevates his game in the playoffs, defensive gamechanger, and carried a mediocre team the the ECF twice and finals once. Not a bad resume.

Ulrich +1.

To the OP, Nash isn't overrated, he is just over the hill. It happpens to everyone. It would be like saying that Magic Johnson was overrated when he made his comeback to the Lakers. These players weren't overrated they just didn't have it anymore.

"Sports do not build character. They reveal it."
-John Wooden

Ulrich with the knockout

Yeah, nash is a bit overrated.

What Ulrich said

Ulrich with a textbook Straw Man.

quote:

---

People think he's not great because his team hasn't won a title, but his playoff numbers are absurd.

---

Who has ever said that Howard is overrated because he hasn't won a title? I have yet to ever see that argument.

I've yet to hear anyone other than the OP and Shaq say Dwight is overrated.

quote:

---

Who has ever said that Howard is overrated because he hasn't won a title? I have yet to ever see that argument.

---

The OP just compared him to Tracy McGrady (incorrectly i might add) because of his "lack of playoff success". Did you miss that post or something?