First, to address the point about Dirk needing to be more confident in himself...he's deflecting the question, nobody achieves as much in the NBA as he has thinking someone is better than him. He's just a humble, hardworking guy and he isn't going to answer a question by saying "Oh, I'm way better than that guy, he sucks."

Second. This whole Dirk/Duncan debate is ridiculous. I read so many comments dogging Lebron and Kobe saying they'll never be Jordan b/c of the number of rings they've won. I don't think it can be argued that Duncan won his rings playing PF. He had Robinson, Nestrovic, Muhhamed, etc. playing C during his championship run.

Dirk is an awesome, awesome player. His legacy is set by the fact that he transcended what the PF position meant at the time he entered the league and flipped it on its ass. The beauty of a player like Dirk is that his stats/career averages/championship rings is that in addition to all of that you have to take into consideration the impact he had on the game. He was one of my favorite players growing up. You have to realize that when he came into the league not many PFs did what he did.

When it comes to the whole "legacy" argument, as to PFs, I don't think you can put him above Duncan. Duncan made his mark in this league as a dominant PF in an era before "stretch" PFs were popular. It is only in the twilight of Duncan's career when the stretch 4 has become as prevalent as it is today.

Dirk is a top 5 PF. Like everyone has said, in the more recent era he has competition with Barkley, Malone, Duncan, etc. He revolutionized the game. He made people think outside the box and made people realize a 7 footer wasn't destined to live underneath the basket and rebound and defend. He made people realize a skilled 7 footer could wreak havoc on a defense.

Would I pick him in his prime of Duncan? Not in a million years. But his impact on the game can' be underestimated. He's a special player.

Duncan is the GOAT PF. That's true.

And lol @ saying Dirk "might" be equal to Barkley or Malone on the offensive end. Dirk is the best offensive PF of all time. Stop using regular season stats.

And Dirk's FG% isn't as high due to the fact he's more of a shooter than a banger down low. Doesn't mean he cant bang though. He can do anything on the offensive end and has the #1 most unguardable shot in the history of the game.

Duncan is a PF these days. Splitter is the guy who never leaves the paint, Duncan is the guy who catches the ball anywhere from a foot inside the line to the low post. He actually rarely gets the ball in the low post, because in the Spurs' offense Splitter is always hanging around down there waiting for passes from the guards and forwards.

Duncan really emphasized his post game when his mobility was limited due to injury. He's healthy, his mobility is back, and he plays all over the court. He's even taking guys off the dribble this year.

Yeah... when somebody cites 'defensive reputation' as a reason Barkley and Malone are or should be considered better PF's then Dirk, you really wonder.

dirk better than karl malone? are you ****ing serious?

malone had 11 straight 2000 point season. 11! The lockout season was the only thing to stop that streak, or it would've been 13 straight

the guy was the kareem of power forwards and dirk couldnt touch his jock when it comes to the offensive end or defensive end. Malone averaged 25 & 10 FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER. Dirk has averaged 25 & 10.... TWICE. Give me a break.

Was pretty clear earlier that Malone should be considered better than Dirk, but the idea that he or Barkley are considered better because of defensive reputation is hilarious.

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It's pretty clear who is actually watching the games and who is just talking out their ass.

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yeah the guy on this thread who watched Dirk play the Spurs and thought he was an SF is a real authority here

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dirk better than karl malone? are you ****ing serious?

malone had 11 straight 2000 point season. 11! The lockout season was the only thing to stop that streak, or it would've been 13 straight

the guy was the kareem of power forwards and dirk couldnt touch his jock when it comes to the offensive end or defensive end. Malone averaged 25 & 10 FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER. Dirk has averaged 25 & 10.... TWICE. Give me a break.

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Regular seasons volume stats! Must also be a Malone>Duncan believer.

Token, Dirk averages 26/10 in the playoffs. Without playing with one of the greatest PGs of all time. Quit talking out of your ass please.

[This message has been edited by TheMasterplan (edited 2/18/2013 1:48p).]

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yeah the guy on this thread who watched Dirk play the Spurs and thought he was an SF is a real authority here

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Dirk looks like he thinks the paint is lava against the Spurs. Great, great jump shooter. Tricky cover due to his variety of midrange moves. Improves his rebounding during the playoffs by streaking in when the shot goes up rather than battling for position in the low block. Clearly a hybrid forward rather than a traditional PF. I don't get what is so hard about this.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 2/18/2013 1:52p).]

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Dirk looks like he thinks the paint is lava against the Spurs.

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*shrugs*

See edit. Also, notice that he's being covered by a SG there as opposed to a PF, C, or even SF.

You guys really sell KG short. If you weigh offense and defense equally he is easily your #2 all time PF. He could guard all 3 frontcourt positions, rebound, pass and score from anywhere.

Not sure how you guys look at old timers, but Bob Pettit put up some beastly numbers back in the day.

if you go way back, oscar robertson is better than magic since he averaged a triple double

As much as I dislike KG, he's a great PF, maybe the most versatile and well-rounded of the modern era. Not the post/help defender or low-post scorer that Duncan is, but he could do it all.

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yeah the guy on this thread who watched Dirk play the Spurs and thought he was an SF is a real authority here

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Dirk looks like he thinks the paint is lava against the Spurs. Great, great jump shooter. Tricky cover due to his variety of midrange moves. Improves his rebounding during the playoffs by streaking in when the shot goes up rather than battling for position in the low block. Clearly a hybrid forward rather than a traditional PF. I don't get what is so hard about this.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 2/18/2013 1:52p).]

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you'll never see Dirk guard an opposing 3. He has always guarded the opposing 4 or 5, and his defensive rebounding rate has always been fine for a PF. It's his offensive rebounding rate that drags him down, mostly due to the Mavs personnel (centers that don't shoot, great rebounding SFs and PG) and his spacing in the schemes.

In that 2006 Spurs series the Spurs chose to have Bowen guard him, which forced them to shift Duncan to center and play Bowen at the 4 to avoid a bad matchup against Josh Howard. Duncan played his natural position matched up against the Mavs center. The Ginobili play referenced came after Dirk spun around Bowen at the high post.

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you'll never see Dirk guard an opposing 3.

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In the early to mid-00s, you never saw Dirk guard anyone.

Yes, the Spurs covered Dirk with Bowen (SF) or Manu (SG) because it made a lot more sense than putting a post on a player who played like a SF. Then they shuffled Duncan over onto the best post scorer. Duncan is a versatile defender, one of the best help defenders ever, and it made a lot more sense to keep him where he could protect the rim than sending him to chase a jump shooter around 25 feet from the basket.

Dampier/Diop/Van Horn "covered" Duncan, while Dirk either covered Horry (listed at PF, but only averaged more than 6 boards once in his career) or the offensive non-factor combo of Nesterovich or Nazr Mohammed.


Matchup idiosyncrasies don't make Duncan a C any more than they make Nowitzki a SF. Nowitzki is a hybrid PF/SF because of how he plays, just like Duncan is a PF because of how he plays. Dirk isn't a C because they stuck him on Nesterovich, and Duncan isn't a C because they put him on The Second Best Center in the NBA Erick Dampier. Sure, I'll accept that Duncan is a hybrid PF/C because depending on the matchup he'll defend either one or play like either one, but he's more of a PF than a C.

Now you think Popovich had Ginobili guard Dirk? When?

Garnett has always guarded Dirk and they've had some great battles. Why hasn't Duncan ever guarded Dirk? It's not because Dirk is running around 25 feet from the basket. The risk is that he can dribble around Duncan out of the high post to an exposed rim, so it's better to assign a more versatile player where the risk is that Dirk just shoots over him out of the post.

Ginobili was on Dirk a number of times in that series. Didn't usually work out too well, but they tried it. Strangely enough, TP gave Dirk fits on a couple occasions when they got matched up on switches.

I don't remember Ginobili but now I do remember LOLing at old Michael Finley being forced to guard Dirk

Look at KG vs. Dirk in the minnesota/Dallas series years ago.

KG could never be a #1 the way Dirk was.

Btw another all time great PF that people are forgetting is Bob McAdoo. He's got a pretty unbelievable résumé as well.

I'd rank them like this (and I'm a total Dirk homer).

1. Duncan
2. McAdoo
3. Malone
4. Dirk
5. Pettit

Sorry Barkley, you were great but you weren't really transcendent.

Dirk > Barkley, Malone, KG

The 2011 world title and NBA Finals MVP shot Dirk past all three of these guys in all time rankings.

Before it was debateable.....but leading a team with Jason Terry as your 2nd best player to a world title?

Thats something none of these three have ever come close to accomplishing.

[This message has been edited by Kellso (edited 2/19/2013 8:30a).]

Chandler/Terry/Kidd/Butler/Marion/Barea is a pretty solid supporting cast. That was a well-built team even if it only had one superstar. Lot of toughness and basketball iq on that squad.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 2/19/2013 8:40a).]

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Chandler/Terry/Kidd/Butler/Marion/Barea is a pretty solid supporting cast. That was a well-built team even if it only had one superstar. Lot of toughness and basketball iq on that squad.

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Sure it was....(edit...you can remove Butler from that list...he didnt play at all in the playoffs)

But the point remains.....Jason Terry is one of the weakest (if not the weakest) Robin players on an NBA title team since the 1980.

Thats no disrespect to JET.....but if you look at the 2nd best player on most NBA championship teams that player is not only an ALL NBA type....they are typically a hall of fame player.

JET has never been an all star.

Hakeem in 1994, Tim Duncan in 2003 and Dirk in 2011 are the only superstars (since 1980) to lead a team full of role players to an NBA title.

Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Lebron James... as great and supreme as they are......none of these guys have that on their resume.


When you also factor in that on their way to winning it all the Mavs beat these set of superstars:
Kobe and Gasol-
Durant and Westbrook
Lebron and Dwayne Wade

yes...the 2011 NBA Finals MVP and world title puts Dirk above KG, Malone and Charles Barkley.

Why?

Because those three have never (and will never) come close to accomplishing that.

The only title KG ever won was when he was on a loaded team with three other ALL NBA types (The Celtics had a talent advantage over every other team they faced)....and he didnt win NBA Finals MVP.

Malone and Barkley never lead their teams to NBA titles.



[This message has been edited by Kellso (edited 2/19/2013 9:45a).]

To be fair I could see Malone and Dirk flipped in my rankings, but Malone scored sooooo many points its hard not to rank him a little higher.

To be fair in this argument, Jason Terry was hardly the Robin on the 2010-11 Mavs. I'd argue Tyson Chandler was and probably the 2nd most effective defensive player in the league that year. Would probably rank Kidd above Terry as far as 'Robin' type player as well.

Dirk quietly had a great team behind him. Still think arguing him any different than top 3-5 PF of all time at this point is silly and I've been a Dirk hater in the past.

It's interesting to think how Dirk would rank in the pantheon of great players for whatever team you support. He is clearly the Mav's GOAT.

He'd probably be the 8th greatest Laker. I rank Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Shaq, Wilt, Baylor and West ahead of him. I'll put him ahead of Worthy and Goodrich to round out the top 10. I'm not counting Malone or Payton as Lakers.

I'd guess most would consider him the 3rd greatest Spur (Duncan, Robinson), and 3rd greatest Rocket (Dream, Moses), but what do Rockets/Spurs/other fans think?

Duncan doesn't even need explaining.

I'll put Robinson over Nowitzki, but acknowledge that some may choose to disagree.
NBA MVP
10x all-star
4x first team NBA
NBA DPoY
4x first team defense
4x second team defense
NBA scoring leader
2 rings
NBA RoY
Robinson was an all-time great who was knocked for never winning the title on his own, but he was also playing in a tough era without much help pre-Duncan/Pop. His list of NBA records and achievements is amazing.

George Gervin is the only other Spur that gets up there in that category. Led the NBA in scoring 4 times in 5 years and put up pretty impressive defensive numbers early in his career. Led the Spurs to 3 60%+ winning seasons and 8 playoff appearances in 9 seasons, but never got past the second round.

TP has the skins with titles and a finals MVP, but he's also part of the Duncan/Pop machine, so he's not up there.

I can't think of anyone else who is worth mentioning even to explain why he doesn't make it.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 2/19/2013 12:47p).]

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To be fair in this argument, Jason Terry was hardly the Robin on the 2010-11 Mavs. I'd argue Tyson Chandler was and probably the 2nd most effective defensive player in the league that year. Would probably rank Kidd above Terry as far as 'Robin' type player as well.

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No way.

Jason Terry was easily the 2nd best player on the Mavs 2011 championship team.

JET averaged more points in the playoffs then Jason Kidd and Tyson Chandler combined.

That makes him the Robin. Case Closed.

The Mavs dont win that title without him.

1. Dirk
2. Jet
3. Shawn Marion
4. Chandler
5. Kidd

Thats how i would rank the players on the 2011 Mavs.


Chandler and Kidd were glorified role players...meaning they had a single role on the team.....and most of the time they did that role very well.

Chandler played great defense and protected the rim...but you couldnt run any offensive plays for him.
His point where almost all putback dunks and alleyoops.

Kidd did everything well except score. To his credit he could hit the wide open jumper.

Do you realize that Jason Kidd didnt score in game 4 of the NBA Finals?

That alone discredits him from being above Jason Terry.

Shawn Marion was every bit the defensive player that Kidd and Chandler where...but he could actually score without plays being run for him.
Matrix was typically assigned one of the other teams star players to defend.



[This message has been edited by Kellso (edited 2/19/2013 2:27p).]

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I'd guess most would consider him the 3rd greatest Spur (Duncan, Robinson), and 3rd greatest Rocket (Dream, Moses), but what do Rockets/Spurs/other fans think

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Dirk is without a doubt better then David Robinson.

Did Robinson ever lead a team out of the Western Conference?

Has he ever won an NBA Finals MVP?

As far as centers....I always thought that Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem where a notch ahead of David Robinson.

Robinson reminds me a lot of Dwight Howard. Great individual stats...but not the guy you can build a franchise around if you want to win a title.

I've always thought that the "great player but not someone who can lead a team to a title" argument is overrated, which is the source of some of my arguments here. Dirk was the poster boy for that until 2010, but when he got a well-crafted team that meshed with each other and with him, they got over the top. As a Spurs fan, I appreciate teams where everyone fits their role and the whole is greater than the parts.

Kobe was getting a rep as a scorer who couldn't do anything without Shaq until he got Pau Gasol and Bynum. Everyone said Lebron didn't have the killer instinct to win a title, and then he put up several of the best playoff performances ever to lead the Heat to a title. Even Jordan battled the perception of being a one-man show who couldn't win a title for years.

One player can make a team good, but can't take a team singlehandedly to a title. There are too many great players out there. If there's no Shaq, Duncan probably has 3 more titles, and if there's no Duncan, Shaq probably wins 2 more titles. Doesn't make either player less great, it just means that there are only so many titles to go around. Wilt only won two titles in spite of being maybe the most dominant player ever.


In Robinson vs. Nowitzki, Robinson scored more points per game but I'll still give Nowitzki the nod on offense (although Robinson's 29.8 ppg and 4.8 apg season was pretty remarkable). However, Robinson averaged 4.5 blocks and 2.3 steals one year while averaging over 23 points and 12 rebounds. He went 7 straight seasons averaging 3 or more bpg and 1.4 or more spg. On defense, Nowitzki eventually got to where he wasn't a liability. Robinson was a fantastic, dynamic defender. I think Robinson's advantage on defense was far greater than Nowitzki's edge on offense.


Actually, a really fun one-on-one matchup would have been Robinson vs. Nowitzki, because DRob was ridiculously quick and athletic.