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Whoever said 2003 is the better class is a troll. With Allen from 96 plus wade, bosh, and Lebron, which is the Heat now, are nowhere close if Barkley, Jordan, Stockton, and Hakeem played on the same team. 84 all the way.

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I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but I'm pretty sure no one has tried to argue against it.

4 hall of famers in each class. One all time great in each class. It's pretty even. I guess I'd give a slight edge to 2003 because West is a better player than Camby or Marbury.

I don't know what I'm saying either. I tried typing that on an ipad and my fingers couldn't keep up with my thoughts.
I'm saying that the Heat has Ray Allen, Bosh, Wade and Lebron. 4 of the 12 of this photo below. Imagine if there was a team of the 4 from the 84 draft? I was confused as I was typing last night, just didn't want to fix it. Internet is tough stuff

Crazy thtat at least 2 from each draft class ended up on the same team at some point in their careers.

'84
'96
'03

Count the HOF'ers first. The only thing '03 has going for it over '96 is Lebron is slightly better than Kobe but after that if you go man for man '96 is stronger at every position. Kobe, Iverson, Allen, and Nash are all HOF'ers. '03 will have Lebron, Wade, and Melo. '96 is just deeper.

'84 will always be the Gold Standard.

Lebron is significantly better than Kobe, but 1996 is better than 2003. Much more balanced with some great defenders in the post and a lot more depth.

Bosh is not a HOF'er unless the Big 3 all stay at Miami and they win 4 more Titles. He's a nice player but simply not a HOF'er. He made 1 All NBA Team as a 2nd Teamer. He has never been a serious MVP Candidate. His career numbers are 19/8/2 and fading.

If Bosh had played in the West, he would not have made an All-Star game.

Ray Allen is HOF. Lebron, Wade, and Allen.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 6/11/2014 5:00p).]

Everyone in that pic is a HOF or future HOF except Bosh. Thus '96 has a significant plus over '03 because of having an extra HOF. You could argue that Bosh has had a less impressive career than Jermaine O'Neal or maybe even Peja.

I agree if Bosh was in the West he may never have played in an AS game. I don't see him making it as a Forward in the late '00s with Duncan, Garnett, and Dirk. Maybe as a backup competing with Boozer or Marion at the back of the roster.

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You could argue that Bosh has had a less impressive career than Jermaine O'Neal or maybe even Peja.

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This is why this board cracks me up... no sane person would argue this. Bosh has had a WAY more accomplished career already than both of those guys and is a much more complete player than either of those guys ever sniffed being... and both of them were great players.

Of course Bosh wouldn't make as many all star games in the West when 3 of the top 7 or so best to ever play his position are all in the Conference nor should that really be considered. No matter how weak the East might have been at his position, 9 All Star appearances signals you being one of the best players in the league for a long period of time. At this point, he's absolutely a Hall of Famer. Is he Duncan, Dirk, or Garnett? No, but he's held himself out as a top flight PF in easily the most talented era of PF's for almost a decade now. Arguing he's not a hall of famer at this point is insane.

Jermaine O'Neal
6x all star
all-NBA second team
2x all-NBA third team

Bosh
9x all star
all-NBA second team


Statistically, their peaks aren't much different. They've both had a 24 ppg season but Bosh was usually around 22 at his peak while O'Neal was at 20 most seasons, both bounced around between 10 and just under 11 rebounds at their best. O'Neal was a much more prolific shotblocker and a noticeably better all-around defender while Bosh was a more efficient scorer. It's hard to compare career numbers because O'Neal's career has already had a long tail.

Bosh is a more well-rounded offensive player, but O'Neal was a more complete two-way player. Neither one stands out in terms of career accolades although O'Neal has an edge. O'Neal was fighting for spots on all-NBA teams with Duncan (at his peak), Shaq, Garnett, Webber, Mutombo, and Ben Wallace, so he wasn't exactly going up against creampuffs either.




[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 6/11/2014 9:12p).]

Saying Bosh isn't a HOFer is "insane"? The guy has made 1 All NBA Team and that was as a 2nd Teamer early in his career. The only 2 things he has going for him is the AS appearances and deciding to play with Lebron and Wade to coattail into rings. He may well make it in because he is part of the "Big 3" and his Miami move inflated his rings and AS appearances but he just isn't that great of a player.

The insane part of your post was suggesting o'neal and peja have had arguable more impressive careers than bosh at this point. Bosh has many more years to go and has accomplished more than both of those guys have already.

The only people who think Bosh is anything but pretty underrated at this point are fans who get their jollies off on internet memes. Listen to any coach, current player or analyst out there and you'll understand how diverse of a player Bosh is. He's still one of the best power fwds in the league and has been such for about a decade now. Awkward looking dude on the court, but he's more than just a coattail rider.

[This message has been edited by atm9000 (edited 6/12/2014 9:35a).]

Bosh has not separated himself from O'Neal. This is a guy who finished third in MVP voting in 2003-2004; Bosh has never finished in the top 5. O'Neal has more all-NBA selections and was a more complete player. No one is saying Bosh is bad, but if you're putting him in the HOF, you're putting O'Neal and probably Peja in as well. With Peja, people forget that he had a Eurobasket MVP to go with some other Euro hardware, an all-NBA second team, finished 4th in the MVP voting one year, and had his number retired. Statistically he matches up with Bosh, but he was a forward in the west at the same time as Duncan/Garnett/Nowitzki/Webber/McGrady/Malone.

I hate including international careers in hall of fame talk, but since that is the case, Bosh has some international success as well. Albeit he was not an MVP, but he does have a bronze and gold medal as well some other lower level global tournaments.

Winning a medal as an American really doesn't mean much, especially because Bosh was just roster filler on those teams.

Bosh's greatest accomplishment is still that he convinced LeBron and Wade to let him ride along to Miami. At his peak he never approached O'Neal who was an MVP Candidate and led the Pacers to a 1 Seed with very little help on that team. Bosh is an average defender that isn't a great low post scorer and is a decent but not great outside shooter.

Even in the current series who would you rather have, Bosh or Diaw? Diaw is a better defender, passer, and has a better back to the basket game. How can that even be a question with a "HOF" player?

Diaw over Bosh?

Per 36 minutes in this year's playoffs, Diaw has more points+assists, more rebounds, gets to the free throw line more often, and they have about the same FG%. Bosh is shooting 44% from three compared to Diaw's 42% though.

I'm not going to argue one way or another, just noting some stats.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 6/12/2014 12:03p).]

Although if you want to add a real HOFer to the list... Duncan, 8 years older than Bosh, is handily outperforming either of those two in the playoffs this year.

Do they just multiply a player's stats by (36/minutes per game played) in order to get to the "Per 36 minute Stat"? If so, I don't know if that is a fair comparison. Bosh averages 33.8 mpg so his "per 36 minute" stats are very close to true stats. Where Diaw only plays 25.3 mpg. I believe Diaw's stats would decrease if he were forced to play close to 36 minutes or even the 33.8 that Bosh is playing.

If that is not how they calculate the statistic, please ignore.

Regardless of the stats I think most people would say Diaw has been more effective. He is a more complete player than Bosh, at least he is now.

I'm certainly not arguing Diaw is a HOF player nor am I arguing that Diaw has had anything close to the career that Bosh has. It's just odd that a guy that was on the scrap heap 2 years ago and is 2 years older than Bosh is more effective than he is. It just shows how Bosh isn't that special.

In some ways a good part of Bosh's career looks like another Class of '96er, Shareef Abdur-Rahim. Though I think Bosh is the better player there overall. Abdur-Rahim only played on terrible teams though.

For my money, Diaw was the Spurs' MVP against OKC. He's the all-time champion at statistically inexplicable +/-, but if you watch the games you see how his understanding of basketball cause and effect (if I go here, he'll go there, the rotation will come from here, and this pass will beat the secondary rotation) and incredibly well-rounded skill set (and physique) have a huge impact on the game. I'm not sure Bosh has that same impact, but I'm not watching from the perspective of a Heat fan.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 6/12/2014 12:56p).]

If the Heat signed Carmelo (unlikely), they should sign Darko so they could have 1-5 from the 2003 NBA Draft.