not bad for a tall skinny white kid from germany with a goofy haircut. legend.

would have 2 rings if not for david stern coudnt resist....

Probably gonna lead another rag tag team to 50 regular season wins as well.

Probably the best offensive power forward of all time.

Legend.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Who's the second best player Dirk played with? Pre-elite Nash, Josh Howard, Tyson Chandler, JET, old JKidd? Anyone I'm forgetting?

Either way, Cuban is an awesome owner, and it was always going to be tough getting past Spurs and Lakers during the Dirk years, but you have to wonder what opportunities were missed by not even being able to give Dirk another even top-30 player to roll with.

I enjoyed his Geico commercials years ago.

I never imagined Dirk would be this good. His numbers verify his greatness.

Dirk has a real shot at climbing to 6th place, but I think it'll be a struggle for him to crack the top 5

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Who's the second best player Dirk played with?

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Finley. The best player Dirk played with is:

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Who's the second best player Dirk played with? Pre-elite Nash, Josh Howard, Tyson Chandler, JET, old JKidd?

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Nash: I think people forget good Nash was not when he was w/ Dallas. Nothing close to a HOFer w/ the Mavs. He took off once he left. (Ironically, Dirk and Nash have been much better off not playing on the same team).

Howard: Had his moments. Peaked w/ one all-star appearance. No one is winning a title w/ Howard as the #2.

Chandler: Finally a legit center and elite defensive presence. Was key in 2011 title run.

JET: Probably the best, most consistent #2 Dirk's ever had.

Kidd: No longer elite when he came back. But managed the offense adequately. Hit some wide open 3's on occasion.

The 2011 title was/is so impressive b/c Dirk has NEVER had his Pippen, Parker/Ginosebleed, Bosh/Wade, Allen/Pierce/Garnett, etc.

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Who's the second best player Dirk played with? Pre-elite Nash, Josh Howard, Tyson Chandler, JET, old JKidd?

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you rang?

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Probably the best offensive power forward of all time.

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Better than Bob Pettit? Two scoring titles. Karl Malone? #2 in points scored and had an 11-year run where he averaged 27.2 PPG. Only two of those 11 seasons dipped below Dirk's single-season career high. Malone had 9 seasons with a scoring average higher than Dirk's career high. What about the Big E? He has a scoring title and is #8 on the NBA scoring list.

As soon as Mallard Duck is done with his model, we will konw for sure.

For now, what an accomplishment.

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The 2011 title was/is so impressive b/c Dirk has NEVER had his Pippen, Parker/Ginosebleed, Bosh/Wade, Allen/Pierce/Garnett, etc.

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But lets not act like it was Dirk and 4 guys from the Development league. He had great years from Mike Finley. Steve Nash, Josh Howard, Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, Jason Terry, Stackhouse, Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, Kidd, etc. One of the hallmarks of the Mavs throughout Dirk's run was the fact that the Mavs were one of the most deep teams in the league year in and year old.

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Karl Malone? #2 in points scored and had an 11-year run where he averaged 27.2 PPG. Only two of those 11 seasons dipped below Dirk's single-season career high. Malone had 9 seasons with a scoring average higher than Dirk's career high.

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I would probably give it to Karel also but he had John Stockton in everyone one of those years you mentioned.

Dirk has 11 seasons with two of the best point guards of his era. Sure, Kidd was at the end of his career, but he could still throw one hell of an entry pass and set people up. He just wasn't super running Kidd anymore.


Bob Pettit averaged 26.4 points for his career. Dirk had one single season above that mark. He played under 800 games, but has almost 21k points.

Bob also took 5 more shots per game than Dirk on average. With Dirk having a better shooting percentage than Bob, he could have scored quite a bit more had he taken as many shots.

Dirk has averaged about 75 games a season. Imagine how many points he would have had if he took as many shots.

Dirk also had the benefit of the three point line.

Another reason why his offensive game is very good. Not many power forwards can take advantage of the three point line like he can.

I guess we need to put that asterik on Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, etc...

Put an * on guys that are man enough to pound the paint to get the tough points rather than shooting fadeaways? Ok.

Your the one that brought it up. If it is an advanatage for Dirk when comparing him to players of the past, it has to be brought up when talking about other big men.

But agree that "asterik" is probably the wrong word to use.

[This message has been edited by keithd03 (edited 4/9/2014 3:59p).]

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He had great years from Mike Finley. Steve Nash, Josh Howard, Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, Jason Terry, Stackhouse, Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, Kidd

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I wouldn't say "great." Those players listed combined for 6 total all-star appearances while playing w/ Dirk (Finley-2, Nash-2, Howard-1, Kidd-1). Stack, Kidd, and Marion (at least offensively and rebounding) were all past their prime.

Yes, they've had some deep teams, but never a dynamic 1-2 combo that you could compare to: Durant/Westbrook, or any of the Spurs', Celtics', or Heat's "big 3."

Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, etc all had the option to shoot threes.

Pettit didn't.

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Dirk also had the benefit of the three point line.

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Before Dirk, hardly any 4's or C's took advantage of the 3 point line (Bill Laimbier maybe being the one big exception, but he would hardy have been called a sharpshooter). That's kind of the point. Since Dirk, almost every team in the NBA employs a "Stretch 4". He revolutionized the game.

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I wouldn't say "great." Those players listed combined for 6 total all-star appearances while playing w/ Dirk (Finley-2, Nash-2, Howard-1, Kidd-1). Stack, Kidd, and Marion (at least offensively and rebounding) were all past their prime.

Yes, they've had some deep teams, but never a dynamic 1-2 combo that you could compare to: Durant/Westbrook, or any of the Spurs', Celtics', or Heat's "big 3."

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But Durant and LeBron have never had the benefit of the depth that Dirk has always enjoyed. You can't have it both ways.

Dirk had more seasons of Mike Finley scoring 20ppg+ than Duncan had from Robinson, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili combined.

The Mavs got solid contribution from Jason Kidd, JJ Barea, Shawn Marion, DeShawn Stevenson, Peja, and especially Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler. We can all agree that Dirk was the leader of that team. But to say that he had no sidekick or no help is incredibly foolish and incorrect.

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Before Dirk, hardly any 4's or C's took advantage of the 3 point line (Bill Laimbier maybe being the one big exception, but he would hardy have been called a sharpshooter). That's kind of the point. Since Dirk, almost every team in the NBA employs a "Stretch 4". He revolutionized the game.

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I don't think it was just Dirk. Lots of guys before him did that. And they were generally euros. Like Sabonis or Bargnani. But there were guys like Sam Perkins, Rasheed Wallace and Cliff Robinson around. Heck, even Hakeem and Robinson would line it up from 20 feet pretty regularly. Barkley took over 2000 threes for his career. The Spurs used Chuck Person as a stretch 4 in the mid 90s before Dirk even made it to the league.

You just had a very different game in the 80s. I don't think Dirk revolutionized it because he isn't really a player you can duplicate and copy. He is a unique, great offensive talent.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 4/9/2014 4:23p).]

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He revolutionized the game.

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Slow your roll.

Apparantly that is a hot topic. If you plug that into google, you get several articles saying he has, and several others saying he hasn't. So it is not too crazy to be on either side.

Depth in the NBA is overrated. Obviously, you would like to have a mixture of both, but every team would gladly take two or three great players over having depth.

This is what makes Dirk's title so great: Since 1990 (almost 25 years), only three teams have won a title without at least two great players. Those teams are (1) the 10-11 Mavericks; (2)the 03-04 Pistons; and (3) the 93-94 Rockets (could count the 94-95 rockets as well if you don't count Drexler).

To make it even more impressive, In the past 35 years, those are the only teams to win without 2 great players as well. Anything before the early 90's is before my time, but just looking at the past champions it looks like this statement is correct.

So the fact that Dirk was able to win even one title by putting the team on his back is exceptional. He is one of the few individuals in the history of the NBA to win a title without having another great player help him out. Obviously, his teammates were not scrubs with the Mavs. But none of them would be considered a great player like the #2 options on the other championship teams.

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This is what makes Dirk's title so great: Since 1990 (almost 25 years), only three teams have won a title without at least two great players. Those teams are (1) the 10-11 Mavericks; (2)the 03-04 Pistons; and (3) the 93-94 Rockets (could count the 94-95 rockets as well if you don't count Drexler).

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No way you can say anyone on the Spurs in 2003 was great other than Duncan. Dirk had much better help in 11 than Duncan did in 03. It isn't even close.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 4/9/2014 4:36p).]

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No way you can say anyone on the Spurs in 2003 was great other than Duncan.

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That's fine. Parker was very good then but he was young (Ginobli wasn't great that year and Robinson was old). You can include the 02-03 Spurs in that category and make it 4 teams in 35 years. My general point still stands though.

Can we remember that the next time a debate comes up about how good Robinson was, or Paker is?

I'm not sure why you can't acknowledge what Dirk did was amazing without having to try and argue about how "great" that Mavs team was and that Dirk had a lot of help. Not everything has to be a Mavs/Spurs debate. Dirk is amazing. Duncan is amazing. They are not mutually exclusive.

It's laughable to say that Dirk had a ton of help that year. You would never have said that before the year started. Obviously, looking back on it he did get some help along the way. Any team that wins a championship is going to have to get some help from role players. If we go back to 02-03, we could point to all the "help" Duncan got in the playoffs from the role players coming up big.

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I don't think it was just Dirk. Lots of guys before him did that. And they were generally euros. Like Sabonis or Bargnani. But there were guys like Sam Perkins, Rasheed Wallace and Cliff Robinson around. Heck, even Hakeem and Robinson would line it up from 20 feet pretty regularly. Barkley took over 2000 threes for his career. The Spurs used Chuck Person as a stretch 4 in the mid 90s before Dirk even made it to the league.

You just had a very different game in the 80s. I don't think Dirk revolutionized it because he isn't really a player you can duplicate and copy. He is a unique, great offensive talent.

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I definitely agree he about your last statement, that he's unique. I guess I just don;t agree with your statement that "lots" of bigs were shooting threes like Dirk managed too. Every one of the guys you mentioned differs from Dirk in that they either:

1) had a significantly worse 3PT % than Dirk
2) were 2-3 inches shorter than him.
3) or just shot 3's as a curiosity as opposed to part of their real offensive game.

So for example, its guys like Sabonis, who was 7'3" but shot around 32% as opposed to Dirk's 38%

Or its guys like Detlef Schrempf, Sam Perkins, Chuck Person who were 6'9-6'10" running around as true 4's and 5's.

And then you had the curiosity guys you referenced, Hakeem, Admiral,etc. who would maybe shoot 5-10 3-pointer a season. And their percentages weren't good either.

So what you have with Dirk, is the first 7 footer (if you want to count 6'11"s - I'm ok with that too) who hit at almost a 40% clip.

Now SINCE Dirk came into the League you've had an influx of players (mostly Euros like you say) - Bargnani, Mehmet Okur, Troy Murphy, Charlie Villanueve, Channing Frye. These guys rival Dirk's 3 PT percentage (though not many equal it) and they are 6'11"-7'0"

What I take from that is that before Dirk, a very few teams tried to use quicker, smaller guys at the 4 or the 5 to shoot 3's, OR let their big men shoot a three now and then, but didn't really want it to be a core part of their offensive game.

Whereas, AFTER Dirk, you see true outside shooting big men all over the place, because GM's are more willing to take a chance on those types of players, having seen the impact Dirk has made on the MAvericks.

Now like you say, Dirk, is unique. And he puts players like Murphy and Frye to shame. But Kevin Love is close (true he's 6-10" but he's definitely a BIG 6'10"). So I really do think you can thank Dirk for that trend.