Only if they're using your brand of logic.


Common logic would dictate that, when considering Wash's ability to motivate, one would want to strongly examine the teams effort and "want to".

Something the Rangers have excelled at since....Wash was hired?

Again, he's not saying that he isn't a good motivator. He's saying that wash's ability to motivate doesn't overrule his glaring lack of in-game managing skills (at least that's what i'm gathering from mhayden's posts)

That's a different discussion.

I'm basically talking about the faulty conclusion that clutch performance is directly tied to a managers motivation score.

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Only if they're using your brand of logic.


Common logic would dictate that, when considering Wash's ability to motivate, one would want to strongly examine the teams effort and "want to".

Something the Rangers have excelled at since....Wash was hired?

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In 2004, 2005 and 2006 -- the last 3 years of Buck Showalter -- the Texas Rangers averaged 82.66 wins.

In 2007, 2008 and 2009 -- the first 3 years of Ron Washington -- the Texas Rangers averaged 80.33 wins.


So I'm guessing in those first 3 years Ron just hadn't found a way to generate that "want to"...



But in 2010 they found it... Mind you before the 2010 season started many of the hardcore analysts (those who cover scouting, sabermetric stats and the like), felt like 2010 the Rangers were poised to break-out and be the dominant team in the division for the upcoming years (I believe you can even find a certain poster by the name of mhayden that predicted this).

And in 2010 they excelled... Apparently because Ron Washington generated that "want to"... or, if you want to go another direction with it, because Texas got Vlad Guerrero in free agency, had a minor league callup who did very well (Moreland), CJ Wilson was given a chance to start, Cliff Lee was picked up near the deadline, highly touted prospect Neftali Feliz was great, and Ogando finally made it stateside and dominated.

Now you can go on believing it was Washington's "want to" that propelled this team to the playoffs -- I'll put my money on it being the shrewed signings, trades and drafts of the Jon Daniels regime.

So what is more likely -- it took Ron 4 years to find that way to motivate his players, or...

in the fourth year Ron Washington was given players via free-agency (Guerrero), trade (Lee), draft (Moreland, Feliz, Ogando) and opportunity (Wilson being alllowed to start -- which was a front office decision, not a Ron Washington decision) that made up a championship caliber team?

Yeah, not a hard one to figure out, even for you corleone...

I never said Wash was the reason the team excelled, but you're grasping at straws isn't surprising.

What I did say is that the team has excelled in the effort department since Wash arrived and that motivation is best represented by the teams effort.

Your point that the teams clutch performance is tied somehow to Wash's ability to motivate is a poor one(at best) and has more to do with your feelngs about Wash than it has to do with reasonable logic or knowledge.

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So what is more likely -- it took Ron 4 years to find that way to motivate his players, or...

in the fourth year Ron Washington was given players via free-agency (Guerrero), trade (Lee), draft (Moreland, Feliz, Ogando) and opportunity (Wilson being alllowed to start -- which was a front office decision, not a Ron Washington decision) that made up a championship caliber team?

Yeah, not a hard one to figure out, even for you corleone...

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Your strawmans get more intricate the more you realize your original point was awful.

Again, I never said Wash as a motivater is what made the franchise great.

I said Wash as a motivator is what makes their effort level consistent.

Gonna refute that or are we in CJ's an ace/Koji was lockdown territory and you're ready to just walk away?

You're arguing "effort".

I'm arguing actual facts and results.

So it's fact that a managers ability to motivate directly correlates to clutch performance of the players?


There's stats out there for that? Got a link?

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Again, he's not saying that he isn't a good motivator. He's saying that wash's ability to motivate doesn't overrule his glaring lack of in-game managing skills (at least that's what i'm gathering from mhayden's posts)

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This is also what I got out of mhayden's posts.

fredo's showing his ranger's fandom hard in this thread. No casual observer who is simply "ok with the rangers doing well" would take the time to go back and forth with the most logical ranger's fan on the board on a topic like this.


pathetically overused "tshirt fan" retort coming in...3...2...1

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RedAgs:

At the end of the day there's been 3 straight years where Texas choked when it mattered.

That doesn't make them a bad team or Ron a bad coach, but I think it certainly shoots holes in that he's some great motivator

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fredo's showing his ranger's fandom hard in this thread. No casual observer who is simply "ok with the rangers doing well" would take the time to go back and forth with the most logical ranger's fan on the board on a topic like this.

pathetically overused "tshirt fan" retort coming in...3...2...1

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I just think that analysis of manager value relative to things like clutch performance is lazy and uninformed.

Also, heyden's logic has lead us to other gems like CJ the ace and Koji the lockdown reliever.

But I am proud of you for sticking to the same username this past week. The guy who has 17 texags usernames is absolutely the authority on pathetic.

Yes, you can find it at the same link that breaks down how much "effort" and "want-to" a team is giving game-by-game.

Or that "resiliency rating" -- which I'm sure was sky high after Texas had a 4 game division lead and the best record in the AL on September 27, yet 6 games later found themselves losing the division and 7 games later found themselves done for the season.

If that ain't resilience, I don't know what is.

So the team hasn't had good effort under Wash, heyden?

Sure it's had good effort under him.

The team also had good effort under Buck Showalter as well (more average wins his last 3 seasons than Washington's first 3 seasons). Yet nobody was singing the praises of Showalter's great motivation.

To try and tie in the Rangers success 2010-2012 with motivation is incredibly shallow. Their success has been due to drafting, free agent acquisition and trades. Not because of "want to".

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The guy who has 1 texags username is absolutely the authority on calling out frauds who openly root for multiple teams

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FIFY

*find me one thread in which i've ever debated someone for the better part of a full page on a topic that didn't relate to my favorite team whatsoever. You won't be able to, you ranger-loving ****.

corleone is missing the point because he's an idiot, but for others:

Don't confuse effort with agressive-ness. In 2010 and 2011 Ron Washington's aggressive style of play was definitely a positive to this team (though again not exactly offset by his strategical in-game roster decisions).

But as another poster pointed out, this year that aggressive style of play has actually been very much a detriment to the team, so even that RW "positive" has been nullified.

And not to pile on, but idiots like corleone deserve it:

I've never seen a guy try and bring up something I said (in this case CJ Wilson) so many times *after* weaseling out on a wager over the same thing.

mhayden: "I think this will happen."
corleone: "You are an idiot, that will never happen."
mhayden: "Ok lets wager on it"
corleone: <scurries away and lets it drop for a few months>

** months after he ran from the wager **

corleone: "Ha ha you thought that was going to happen!"



(nevermind that CJ Wilson currently sits as one of the Top 10 starters in ERA+ post-2009 when he became a starter)

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Don't confuse effort with agressive-ness. In 2010 and 2011 Ron Washington's aggressive style of play was definitely a positive to this team (though again not exactly offset by his strategical in-game roster decisions).

But as another poster pointed out, this year that aggressive style of play has actually been very much a detriment to the team, so even that RW "positive" has been nullified

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If you're talking about me, that's not what I pointed out.

I pointed out that the team was very aggressive and successful with it in 2010 and 2011. They pulled the aggressiveness way back last year and still scored. They've possibly pulled it back even more this year, they certainly have not ramped it back up and seem to have picked bad times to be aggressive.

If we're going to talk about a coach, my point lay with the removal of Dave Anderson as 3rd base coach and placement of Gary Pettis as his replacement.

Of course, you spent 2010 and 2011 telling us Dave Anderson needed to be fired...so I'm sorts of confused right now.

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corleone is missing the point because he's an idiot, but for others:

Don't confuse effort with agressive-ness. In 2010 and 2011 Ron Washington's aggressive style of play was definitely a positive to this team (though again not exactly offset by his strategical in-game roster decisions).

But as another poster pointed out, this year that aggressive style of play has actually been very much a detriment to the team, so even that RW "positive" has been nullified.

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You always get so mad and personal when we get closer to you just walking away from another terrible point.

So i'll ask again, heyden.

How is motivation the key driver in clutch performance?

Are you saying that effort has been an issue with Wash's teams?

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And not to pile on, but idiots like corleone deserve it:

I've never seen a guy try and bring up something I said (in this case CJ Wilson) so many times *after* weaseling out on a wager over the same thing.

mhayden: "I think this will happen."
corleone: "You are an idiot, that will never happen."
mhayden: "Ok lets wager on it"
corleone: <scurries away and lets it drop for a few months>

** months after he ran from the wager **

corleone: "Ha ha you thought that was going to happen!"



(nevermind that CJ Wilson currently sits as one of the Top 10 starters in ERA+ post-2009 when he became a starter)

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I actually countered with a wager that you passed on and the offer to meet in person and discuss more still stands.

But you opted to stay in moms basement.

However, it's still really awesome you continue to argue that point that CJ is an ace.

Your baseball acument is staggering.

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FIFY

*find me one thread in which i've ever debated someone for the better part of a full page on a topic that didn't relate to my favorite team whatsoever. You won't be able to, you ranger-loving ****.

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Under which username, dropkicked billy wolfpack.

I was simply pointing out to those that might have confused the agressiveness of 2010 and 2011 (which was very beneficial to Texas) with "effort". Two different things.

As for Dave Anderson, him needing to go doesn't necessarily mean his replacement is any more competent (though I haven't watched Pettis enough to chime in on that).

I mean, are there any other 3rd base coaches over the last few years that have literally been the cause of the final out in a one run game?

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You always get so mad and personal when we get closer to you just walking away from another terrible point.

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I actually countered with a wager that you passed on and the offer to meet in person and discuss more still stands.

But you opted to stay in moms basement.

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The guy saying I live in moms basement and insisting to meet to "discuss" an internet wager is saying I'm getting mad and personal.

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Your baseball acument is staggering.

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Well the last time I offered to put my "baseball acument" up against yours, you weaseled out.

So until you're actually willing to put your money where your mouth is as far as who has a better "baseball acument", then it's a pretty pointless discussion.

And just as an aside, when attempting to criticize someone else's "acument", it's probably a good idea to first learn that the word is "acumen", you ****ing dolt.

I weasled out by countering with a different bet with a willingness to meet, have a beer, a discuss in more detail?

Makes perfect sense.

Also, typing/spelling smack looks good on you. It's "lockdown".

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Ignoring that there were plenty of people who picked Texas to win the division this year, they are a half-game up in July -- I wouldn't exactly call that proving anybody right OR wrong at this point.

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Plenty like... 10%, while 20% didn't even think they'd be WC teams?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/preview13/story/_/page/13expertpicks/espn-expert-team-predictions-2013-baseball-season

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Yes we did discuss this - and I showed that of the playoff teams last year Texas rode their everyday starters harder than any other team -- and it showed.

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NO... I think it showed that like this year... star players like to play. Especially those in a contract year.

Who knew?

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He was pulled to bring in Derek Holland - who had not pitched in relief all season long. Derek then threw a wild pitch, gave up a single and had a throwing error before getting out of the inning. *HE WAS THEN REPLACED BY UEHARA*

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And by rolling you mean, he gave up a single and had a guy on 2nd? Holland had 2 Games in the playoffs in 2011 as a RP. And maybe you just missed this one in 2012, where he came in out of the BP:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?id=321003111

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Who on this team would you say has played over their ability due to the coaching of Ron Washington?

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Leonys Martin has publicly given credit to Wash.

You yourself have indicated Tepesch and Grimm aren't that good.

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I think you are giving Washington credit for an influx of talent in the minor leagues that happened due to drafting. Andrus, Profar an the like were stud prospects before they got to the bigs.

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You are constantly talking about how Profar and Martin Perez are just prospects, they aren't like having a proven veteran. You constantly say you'd give up Profar, et al, in order to get a proven veteran. I can't understand how you all of a sudden are saying guys like Grimm and Tepesch are Ace pitchers who were know and proven. Where was Tepesch and Grimm last year? Grimm's call-up last year was a message to Perez that he is getting passed up. Perez was only brought up in 2012 out of necessity. You even said after Perez' GS, "well it is only 1 start." Then you go with the "well it is only mediocre talent they are facing."

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Nothing with their rosters predicted a playoff team?

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In 2010

SI:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/03/29/expert.picks/index.html
5 people predicted the Ragners winning the division
5 people predicted the Rangers winning the division.
3 had Seattle

BR

Seattle:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/366105-2010-mlb-predictionsteam-previews-standings-awards-playoffs-and-more


ESPN went:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/preview10/news/story?page=10expertpicks
19 Halos
11 Rangers
6 Seattle

In 2011, maybe I overstated.

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Maybe you just weren't sharp enough to see it, but there were PLENTY of people -- myself included -- that predicted Texas would make the playoffs in 2010 and be the dominant force in the division for the years after.

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And didn't you state that in 2009, as well.

I don't think either of us were that far apart in 2009, 2010 and 2011. That having been said, we were both ahead of the curve, IIRC. Yes, there was a ton... a TON of talent, and JD did well for himself in many paths to getting that talent.

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But I guess all of those other analysts who consider Ron such a bad manager just lost a lot of money gambling on him too?

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I don't just follow analysts for my opinions. And maybe so. I don't know.

You just seem to have a disdain for him. If a player does well, you say it was a terrible opponent. If Wash leaves a player in and he gives up a hit, Wash left him in too long. If he pulls a guy and the replacement gives up a hit, he pulled him too soon.

It wasn't you, but several times the past month, someone on here was like "Put in Ross, I can't believe Wash put in insert someone not named Ross. The guy Wash puts in sucked, and then he puts in Ross the next inning. Ross sucks and ne'er a word. The implication being, Ross sucked against that team that day and whether Wash put him in the 6th I or the 7th I demonstrated it wouldn't have mattered, yet Wash made a bad decision because the person didn't agree. Scheppers the same. When a RP fails, everyone says "Wash should have brought in Scheppers." Now, the implication is Wash overused Scheppers. I get disagreeing with a managers decision. But like Uehara... after the his 3 appearances in teh 2011 playoffs, where he had a 33.75 ERA... you think Wash was looking to bring him in the playoffs first? If he had, and Uehara gave up a HR, like we've all grown to expect, everyone would be like "Apparently Wash didn't learn his lesson in 2011."

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So basically the people who are arguing that Washington is a good coach because he's a good motivator are arguing something that can't be backed up with logic?

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I'm not arguing he is a great coach, nor a great motivator, as to his success.
- I hear his players praise him, and they credit quite a bit towards how he handled them, to where they are.
- Mike Maddux came into the organization in November 2008.
In 2008, Texas boasted a 5.37 ERA (14th in AL), in 2007, they were 4.75 (11th).

In 2009, Texas jumped to 8th with a 4.38. In 2010, they were 4th with a 3.93. I absolutely believe Maddux is the Magic man.

Compare to Milwaukee.
2007 - 9th in the NL
2008 - 2nd in the NL
2009 - 15th in the NL (after he departs).
2010 - 14th in the NL

Milwaukee's ERA was volatile while Maddux was there... as was their pitching staff. Texas has had much more consistency in terms of keeping players. CLee was a rental and CJ left, but other than bringing in Darvish... most have come up through the system. Credit to JD for focusing on drafting and bringing in pitching... IMO, Wash offers psychological interaction, but I don't see him as a mechanics or motivator. That is why Maddux comes out with the Love for the player and Wash usually has the hook.

I think Wash makes some questionable decisions, but rather than blame him for the failed decision, like leaving in Scheppers to face Ichiro, instead of bringing in Ross. I usually find there are often justifyable reasons, after the fact. Ichiro's splits are .348 v LHP \ .230 v RHP. If Ross was brought in and HE gave up a hit, people would be saying Wash was foolish to bring in a Lefty to face a gave hitting .348 against lefties.

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As for Dave Anderson, him needing to go doesn't necessarily mean his replacement is any more competent (though I haven't watched Pettis enough to chime in on that).

I mean, are there any other 3rd base coaches over the last few years that have literally been the cause of the final out in a one run game?

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I don't how many times its happened, but it happened to Seattle's coach earlier this season when Justin Smoak tried to run over Brayan Pena in the bottom of the 14th inning.

Fishbowl syndrome.

In 2011, we had 45 baserunning outs. Only 1 team in MLB had less. We took 157 bases. Only 2 teams took more.

If we're picking on home plate plays, we had 16 outs at home. 8 teams had fewer, and the MLB average was 19 outs at home. We successfully went 1st to home on doubles 49 times. That was the 3rd most in MLB.

We were arguably the best base running team in baseball. And you wanted him gone because you, a Rangers fan, saw the Rangers make a few bad plays.

(What we were bad about was outs at first, we had the 3rd most in MLB with 14)

Fishbowl syndrome.

And while I would never argue Washington is a strategic genius, fishbowl syndrome has probably amplified his weaknesses.


*Full disclosure- 2010 wasn't as good. We had 61 outs on base (5th most in MLB) against 199 bases taken (2nd most in MLB, 4 behind 1st and 22 in front of 3rd). 17 outs at home (one below MLB average) but outs at 3rd (19, t-2nd most against a league average of 13). It was a give and take that they refined in 2011, but the end result was the Rangers scored 32% of their runners in 2010 which was the 3rd best rate in MLB.

[This message has been edited by TXAggie2011 (edited 7/1/2013 4:32p).]

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Plenty like... 10%, while 20% didn't even think they'd be WC teams?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/preview13/story/_/page/13expertpicks/espn-expert-team-predictions-2013-baseball-season

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I'd suggest going outside of just ESPN for your baseball analysis -- I think year after year those season predictions end up being laughable. Just a quick glance has, what, 90% of them chosing the Nationals to win the pennant?

But even ignoring that, its July and Texas is one-half-game up in the division. Predicting them to win the division or not to win the division is a coin-flip at this point, so no sense in patting anyone on the back for their predictions as of yet.

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NO... I think it showed that like this year... star players like to play. Especially those in a contract year.

Who knew?

---

So the other playoff teams in 2012 were devoid of stars?


2012 Playoff Team Players with 156 or more games played:

Cincy: 0
San Fran: 0
Oakland: 1
Washington: 1
St. Louis: 1
Baltimore: 2
Atlanta: 2
Detroit: 2
New York: 3
Texas: 5



2012 Playoff Team Players with 147 or more games played:

Oakland: 1
Washington: 2
St. Louis: 2
Cincy: 2
San Fran: 2
Baltimore: 2
New York: 4
Detroit: 4
Atlanta: 5
Texas: 7

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And by rolling you mean, he gave up a single and had a guy on 2nd?

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Ummm he gave up a single and then a sacbunt moved the guy to second. He had a 1.35 game ERA with 0 walks and no extra base hits. So by rolling I mean rolling.

Certainly not a situation where you should be bringing a starter into a high-leverage relief situation -- especially one that his splits vs lefties are actually 20 points worse than the guy you have in.

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Leonys Martin has publicly given credit to Wash.

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Has Leury Garcia? Becuase it's not hard to pick a player doing well that includes his coach when he's giving credit. This is not something unique to the Texas Rangers clubhouse.

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You yourself have indicated Tepesch and Grimm aren't that good.

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In reply to your head-in-the-clouds thinking that they are #3 starters. I've said they were guys that one or the other could hold things down as a #5 starter on a pennant contending team. Grimm is sporting a 5.56 ERA, Tepesch a 4.71 ERA -- did I miss somewhere that they were kicking ass?

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You are constantly talking about how Profar and Martin Perez are just prospects, they aren't like having a proven veteran. You constantly say you'd give up Profar, et al, in order to get a proven veteran. I can't understand how you all of a sudden are saying guys like Grimm and Tepesch are Ace pitchers who were know and proven. Where was Tepesch and Grimm last year? Grimm's call-up last year was a message to Perez that he is getting passed up. Perez was only brought up in 2012 out of necessity. You even said after Perez' GS, "well it is only 1 start." Then you go with the "well it is only mediocre talent they are facing."

---

When your proof of guys pitching over their heads are two guys currently sporting a 5.56 ERA and a 4.71 ERA then you might as well just give up your point.

And regarding Perez, my reply that "it is only 1 start" was again in response to your head-in-the-clouds that after 1 start that Martin Perez had solidified himself as a great option for our #3 starter in the playoffs -- keep in mind that you also said that teams only roll with 3 starters in the playoffs, so you're knowledge of what actually happens in the playoffs seems to be a bit out of touch.

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Nothing with their rosters predicted a playoff team?

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Wait, you make the comment that nobody predicted the Rangers would be a playoff team in 2010, then go on to link 16 different "experts" that picked the Rangers to be a playoff teamin 2010?

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It wasn't you, but several times the past month, someone on here was like "Put in Ross, I can't believe Wash put in insert someone not named Ross. The guy Wash puts in sucked, and then he puts in Ross the next inning. Ross sucks and ne'er a word. The implication being, Ross sucked against that team that day and whether Wash put him in the 6th I or the 7th I demonstrated it wouldn't have mattered, yet Wash made a bad decision because the person didn't agree. Scheppers the same. When a RP fails, everyone says "Wash should have brought in Scheppers." Now, the implication is Wash overused Scheppers. I get disagreeing with a managers decision. But like Uehara... after the his 3 appearances in teh 2011 playoffs, where he had a 33.75 ERA... you think Wash was looking to bring him in the playoffs first? If he had, and Uehara gave up a HR, like we've all grown to expect, everyone would be like "Apparently Wash didn't learn his lesson in 2011."

---

For the most part I'll defend the guys he goes to in the bullpen, and often times give him credit (like getting Perez out of there the other night despite his overall line looking pretty good, or pulling Scheppers last night when it was obvious something was wrong).

And I'll also concede a lot of what Washington does with the bullpen is about getting certain arms rested (though apparently not this year) and getting certain guys who have struggled some innings to possibly get back into a groove which is important.

But overall I don't think there's many outside of some Texas homers that would argue he's a good in-game manager.

I'm so confused...

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In reply to your head-in-the-clouds thinking that they are #3 starters. I've said they were guys that one or the other could hold things down as a #5 starter on a pennant contending team. Grimm is sporting a 5.56 ERA, Tepesch a 4.71 ERA -- did I miss somewhere that they were kicking ass?

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SO now they suck again?

You can't have it both ways. If the Rangers are sporting 3 #5 starters... and have an underwhelming Offense... and yet have the 2nd best AL record... how can that be?

It isn't because of the talent... you just said they have 3 #5 SPs. You don't like the Andrus and Kinsler contracts. Of the 8 position, 5 SP and DH... that accounts for 5 of 14 players. Murhpy isn't the answer and everyone apparently wants Cruz pulled once the team gets ahead. AJP has to rest from time to time. Moreland sucked until a few weeks ago... As did the platoon of Leonys.

Beltre has had a nice season, but he isn't doing it alone.

Has it been all about smoke-and-mirrors? just luck? I don't get it.

65 posts? I'm not going to waste my time reading this thread, but how the hell does this topic receive 65 replies?

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65 posts? I'm not going to waste my time reading this thread, but how the hell does this topic receive 65 replies?

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You have a bunch of Rangers fan ingrates.

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SO now they suck again?

You can't have it both ways.

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No one ever said they suck.

There's a big difference between calling them #3's and potential playoff starters (you) and calling them a serviceable #5 (me).

At a combined 5+ ERA, you are kidding yourself if you think they are #3 guys or legitimate 2013 playoff starters.

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65 posts? I'm not going to waste my time reading this thread, but how the hell does this topic receive 65 replies?

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You have a bunch of Rangers fan ingrates.

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Haha thats what I figured. Carry on