Lets not get off onto hypotheticals. Stick with what we know to be true.

Ortiz used PEDs.

Berkman?? Everett?? Are we talking Adam or Carl Everett???? Either way, Carl Everett was on the Astros for all of two seasons and Adam Everett is one of the skinniest people to ever play baseball! Beltran played on the Astros for half a season and is pretty much universally hated by the fanbase.

There have been rumors about Bagwell, but only because he is a bigger guy. I am yet to see anything substantial. On him or Biggio. Lidge I have never heard even as much as a whisper about.

If you want to bring in Clemens and Pettitte, then sure, I supported them when they were with the Astros until it came out that they were users. Both of them were pretty much shunned by the Astros fanbase. I know Clemens is still involved with the team, but pretty much everyone I know that is a serious fan can't stand him.

I guess your theory is that EVERYONE cheated? What is cheating even? HGH? Anabolic Steroids? Creatine? Deer Antler Spray?

But I guess the poster above is right, no need for hypotheticals. We should stick to discussing facts. Ortiz used. Clemens used. Bonds used. So on and so forth.

Lorenz

Ken Caminiti said 50% of players were using in the early 2000s. 100+ players tested positive in the anonymous, scheduled drug test in 2003. Do you really think that all the dirty players are getting caught? Do you think Ryan Braun just started taking PEDs in 2012? Why didn't he test positive before that? It's easy to beat drug tests for steroids. Even most of the Biogenesis players have never tested positive.

It's probably not fair to speculate about an individual player, but at some point you just have to play the odds. It's doesn't make sense (from a fan's perspective) to just crucify the players who get caught and keep on acting like other players are clean.

I'm not saying suspend or prosecute players based on anything other than real evidence, but if you refuse to support players who use PEDs, I have some very bad news for you.

Have you not read what I wrote? I have said I will support them until I find out they cheated when there is proof I will change my opinion on a player just like I did Big Papi

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I guess your theory is that EVERYONE cheated? What is cheating even? HGH? Anabolic Steroids? Creatine? Deer Antler Spray?

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I'm not saying all of the players I listed used PED's, but I'm saying at least one of them. As for your second point, I completely agree. That's just another reason that basing your opinions of innocent/ guilty on who tests dirty is an illogical position.

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Have you not read what I wrote? I have said I will support them until I find out they cheated when there is proof I will change my opinion on a player just like I did Big Papi

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and that doesn't make sense because drug testing is a poor measure of who is using actually using prohibited substances.

Your position is that you hate cheaters who get caught.

Innocent until proven guilty and the drug testing the last 10 years has actually been a very good telling sign towards cheaters

It really hasn't though. There were 0 rumors about Ryan Braun or Nelson Cruz until they got caught.

Then you should not call clemens a cheater. He has never failled a drug test. And he won a criminal case.

It's not a "fact " that clemens used.


By the way, I think he did use.

[This message has been edited by BMX Bandit (edited 4/22/2014 7:32p).]

Well, that escalated quickly.

So what PED (that was banned in 2003) did Ortiz test positive for again? Anybody? Hellooo? Beuller...Beuller...

that's what I thought

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regarding Ortiz and 'roids...remarkable that he could not hit a lot of home runs playing half his games in the Metrodome. Found the HR touch once he arrived in Boston.

if Oritz didn't use 'roids, he would be about the only Dominican slugger from the 90's and 00's that did not

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DKM,
He had a positive test, and his workout brother was well known user Manny Ramirez..... You do the math, Bueller

[This message has been edited by Mr.Bond (edited 4/22/2014 9:40p).]

still has plausible deniability until it is actually confirmed what he took and if it was illegal in 2003

Ortiz doesn't even remotely pass the eye/smell test on this

Yeah cuz he was a stick figure when he played in minnesota, wait.... he's always had the same body type

He barely had warning track power then all the sudden turns into a smasher...... Right

it's called closing holes in your swing and evolving as a hitter. Superstars are able to do that (especially during their prime years ages 26-30)

You don't find it suspicious that ortiz 3 highest hour totals came in 04,05,06...right in between testing positive for something in 03 and before the new (yet inefficient) drug testing program kicked started in 06?

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and his best years were all within the parameters of a normal slugger's "prime" years. Neither of those two facts are up for debate.

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How on earth can anyone know exactly what "normal prime years" are/were with all the cheating going on since the 70s?
I personally just except "everyone"cheated from the late 80's through 2005/06 or so...and I'm okay with believing that

If someone can produce a list of substances that were banned in 2003, state specifically what Ortiz tested positive for, and find that substance on the list, then yes you can definitively say he cheated.

If you can't, then you can't. period. end of story.

if what he tested positive for wasn't illegal in 2003, then he did nothing wrong under league rules at the time. If he was still using a substance today that is now illegal, then he would test positive again, they would name the substance, and expose him. Anybody disagree with this logic?

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You don't find it suspicious that ortiz 3 highest hour totals came in 04,05,06...right in between testing positive for something in 03 and before the new (yet inefficient) drug testing program kicked started in 06?

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End of discussion

Geez...the original question was about how two managers treated players who didn't run a ground ball out through the bag. How did we go from "hustle" to "drugs"? Still, a very interesting discussion.

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Token
user level: TexAgs LegendAggie12th Man DonorAssociation of Former Students Donor posted 10:59a, 04/22/14this user's public profilesend private message to useredit this replyobject to this reply



ortiz takes 1 min home run trots, too, but no one ****ing complains. it's hilarious how he is an admitted steroid abuser and gets the HOF treatment, and raffy palmiero gets the shaft

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look no further than one of the board's biggest trolls. Token is the one who wrongfully turned this into a steroid discussion