Wasting your time with him DallasAg -- I halfway expect him to say Mike Trout is an average player and 15 years from now when he's in his last year in the league and he hits 0.240 he'll bump the thread and say "See, he's an average hitter hitting 0.240... I was wrong for 14 years but I'm finally right now!"

I'm not sure what is most amusing about it:

A) That he waited 3 years to try and make his case, because the first 2 he was wrong.

B) That his counter player for who is an ace was Justin Verlander, who has been anything but an ace since then.

or C) That when originally asked if he'd like to put some money on CJ's next-3-year ERA, instead needed to add 50 stipulations that must be met also -- stipulations that would have required CJ Wilson to be one of the greatest pitchers of all time to meet... Ultimately concluding in him not being confident enough to put money down.


I can't really blame him for being dumb, but bumping a thread 3 years later to let everyone remember? That's just idiotic.

I love the periodic CJ Wilson slapfest. I set my watch to it.

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Wasting your time with him DallasAg -- I halfway expect him to say Mike Trout is an average player and 15 years from now when he's in his last year in the league and he hits 0.240 he'll bump the thread and say "See, he's an average hitter hitting 0.240... I was wrong for 14 years but I'm finally right now!"

I'm not sure what is most amusing about it:

A) That he waited 3 years to try and make his case, because the first 2 he was wrong.

B) That his counter player for who is an ace was Justin Verlander, who has been anything but an ace since then.

or C) That when originally asked if he'd like to put some money on CJ's next-3-year ERA, instead needed to add 50 stipulations that must be met also -- stipulations that would have required CJ Wilson to be one of the greatest pitchers of all time to meet... Ultimately concluding in him not being confident enough to put money down.


I can't really blame him for being dumb, but bumping a thread 3 years later to let everyone remember? That's just idiotic.

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Constant redefinition?

CJ isn't an ace.

CJ wil be a 2/3 moving forward.

CJ sucks in the playoffs.

Thats been my stance and continues to be. Just because you get confused by your own 15 page posts doesn't mean i've changed my tune.

HTH.

This thread went exactly as I hoped it would.

Me too.

Better even.

Corleone has been contending that CJ isn't an "ace" pretty continually for year after year now--so I don't know where this "had to wait 3 years" talk is coming from.

Anyways, this is mostly for DA94, there are or were tens of "aces" if we go look at who pitched like an "ace" for one or two seasons during their career. I'd contend 2011 was really the only time CJ looked like a guy who could carry a pitching staff.

2010 was pretty good, but he wasn't top 10 in the AL in WAR, he wasn't top 10 in the AL in WHIP, he wasn't in the top 10 in strikeouts...so many of the different metrics which people proscribe to to varying degrees just were not there for CJ.

2010 worked out for the Rangers pitching staff because of depth moreso than because CJ was just making every 5th game a guaranteed win for Texas. (I use "guaranteed" in figurative sense)

2011...maybe. Other guys who looked awesome in 2011: Ricky Romero and James Shields. They are or were aces?!?!

CJ has had a few pretty good seasons- he's never had one of those great seasons which guys like Verlander, Hernandez, I daresay even guys like Fat CC have put up, and he's had some real mediocre seasons.

So, I'll continue to contend as I have for years now that he's a good pitcher, that you can put at #1 if you've got depth, but he really belongs behind someone like Jered Weaver if you're wanting to build a truly good pitching staff.

Yes, I know Weaver had some struggles this year. Matt Shoemaker and Garrett Richards really led the charge.

I guess that means we've found two more aces out in SoCal in Shoe and Richards, eh?

This is one of the threads which started this fight...

It was bumped in 2013 by mhayden, but not 2012 and not this season.

I think we can say that, up to this point in time, CJ Wilson peaked in 2011. Corleone is, for the time being, correct on that.

We can see with full confidence how the bet would have gone, had it come to fruition. (It didn't, right?)

Corelone would have won, mhayden would have lost.

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Verlander
Halladay
Lee
Kershaw
Lincecum
F.Hernandez
Weaver
Sabathia
Hamels
Lester
Cain
Price


$1000 says CJ Wilson puts up a better ERA in 2012 than half of those pitchers (min 200IP).

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Kershaw- 2.53 (227.2 innings)
Price- 2.56 (211.0 innings)
Verlander- 2.64 (238.1 innings)
Cain- 2.79 (219.1 innings)
Weaver- 2.81 (188.2 innings)
Hamels- 3.05 (215.1 innings)
Hernandez- 3.06 (232.0 innings)
Lee- 3.16 (211.0 innings)
Sabathia- 3.38 (200.0 innings)

Wilson- 3.83 (202.1 innings)

For full disclosure, that thread does include the line where mhayden says CJ is not an ace.

If memory serves me correctly the thread started with corleone calling CJ Wilson a "#3/4 at best", and Justin Verlander as an "ace".

"CJ Wilson is an ace" were words he attempted to put in my mouth when he realized how foolish calling CJ a "#3/4 at best". He then continued to bump the thread everytime CJ had a bad game (yet not when he was pitching well) with "CJ Wilson - ace"... Trying to prove a point that no one made.

Rinse. Repeat.

As for the wager -- I offered up a wager that would have been 4:1 or 5:1 odds any place that would have let you book it at even money to corleone... and he was too chicken **** to take it. The fact that he still brings a subject up that he didn't have the balls to pony up some money on I think sums him up pretty succinctly.

And the fact that you were wrong about a guy and still defend that, and him, to this day pretty much sums you up.

Sorry about CJ, man.

Oh and speaking of chicken****, you were too chicken**** to meet up and shake on it little buddy. For $1000 I have a superstition about seeing the other guy in person.

Offer still stands, btw. I'm sure you get out of the basement every now and then, right?

Well someone on here is apparantely a chicken shyt.

Whether or not Wilson was ever an ace may be debatable.

But this is not debatable... His performance in his last start will go down as one of the most ineffective starts in postseason history!

Couldn't get out of 1 inning? Let alone not having any post season wins, but if he can't be trusted to take the mound for 1 frigging inning, he doesn't belong getting the ball at all in October!

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Well someone on here is apparantely a chicken shyt.

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I think the culprit on that was pretty obvious 3 years ago and still is today.

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Whether or not Wilson was ever an ace may be debatable.

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Again if memory serves me the "CJ Wilson is an ace" debate was one that corleone only fabricated in his head in attempts to deflect from his comments that he was a "#3/4 at best".

The conversation then got extended with everyone else on what the true definition of an "ace" was, and not surprisingly no one really had a clear definition of what one was (as the guys people pointed to that were nails in the regular season all had multiple postseason games where they **** the bed, etc...).

Based on the criteria most people seemed to have (great in regular season, never **** the bed in postseason), there ended up being maybe 3 guys post-1990 that could have been called an "ace".

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But this is not debatable... His performance in his last start will go down as one of the most ineffective starts in postseason history!

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Agreed.


I'll leave the troll alone and let this thread fade back to obscurity again -- should have realized that if the guy wasn't willing to put his money where his mouth was 3 years ago that he wasn't worth trying to correct.

Id fade away too.

Sorry about CJ.

So was he ever Nails?

If you need a Head and Shoulders commercial or someone to land the team plane then yes.

You know, I looked up his post season stats and it appears he did have a win in 2010 vs the Rays.

His lack of a w was a big theme on the 2011 thread.

That one win is certainly impressive compared to the numbers of people who've never won a post season game. But his 1-6 record isn't going to stir up a lot of hopeful thinking come October.

Did you miss that win Fredo?

No...it just wasnt enough to refute anything I said.

But, if you need a HBP in a high leverage situation in a WS game, Ceej is your guy.

But you kept saying he'd never won. Never.

Gonna need a quote on that, oil can.

And FTR, I wouldn't accept a big cash bet over the Internet, unless the website served as Escrow Agent.

So to call Fredo a chicken shyt for not taking an Internet bet for real cash? That's a stretch.

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Gonna need a quote on that, oil can.

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From the tread posted above:

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corleoneAg993:46p, 11/13/11


2004, Game 2, Curt Schilling:

6 IP, 4h, 1R, 1BB, 4K's.

And the win. Something CJ hasn't done in 5 tries.


2004, Game 3, Pedro Martinez:

7IP, 3h, 2BB, 6K's

And the win. Something CJ hasn't done in 5 tries.


2005, Game 4, Freddy Garcia:

7IP, 4h, 3BB, 7k's.

And the win. Something CJ hasn't done in 5 tries.


2006, Game 3, Chris Carpenter(could have chosen Kenny's game 2, but sticking with series winners here)

8IP, 3h, 6k's.

And the win. Something CJ hasn't done in 5 tries.



2007, Game 1, Josh Beckett:

7IP, 6h, 1r, 9k's.

And the win. Something CJ hasn't done in 5 tries.



2008, Game 1, Cole Hamels:

7IP, 5h, 2r, 5k's.

And the win. Something CJ hasn't done in 5 tries.


2008, Game 5, Cole Hamels:

6IP, 2h, 2r, 1bb, 3k's,

And the no decision. But didn't he win World Series MVP? Sounds pretty ace-like to me.



2009, Game, Cliff Lee:

9IP, 6H, 1R, 10k's.

And the win. Something CJ hasn't done in 5 tries.

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Did you miss the TB ALDS win?

I think I was speaking specifically about WS starts. His win in the DS against Tampa doesn't change anything but yup, it was a win.

It answers the question.

Your argument is that he's taken the ball in 5 World Series starts and has Zero wins. Fair?

I think I was comparing his WS starts to theirs and then at the same time pointing out he'd been terrible in the playoffs overall.

Agree that when the weather gets crisp, he's the Edmund Fitzgerald.

Ignoring the troll corleone and going back to the aspects of the discussion that actually were interesting:

Clayton Kershaw widely considered a legitimate "ace".

Yet he's now 1-4 with a 5.20 ERA in 11 postseason appearances.

In half of his postseason starts you can make the case not just that he didn't help his team win, but he was the main reason they lost.

Still a bonafide ace, or does a now fairly large sample size call it in to doubt?

Hate this thread, but thought it was a good place for this nugget from David Cameron

2014 postseason record in games started by Kershaw, Strasburg, Zimmermann, Lester, Price, Scherzer, Verlander: 0-8.

Link to where I said you have to be good in the playoffs to be an ace?

Looking forward to that.

In the meantime, to dolt hayden, sorry about CJ.

And yes, Kershaw is still an ace.

CJ still isn't.

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The purpose of this article is to see if I can write an article about CJ Wilson's start on Sunday and reach the 150 word minimum. I probably can, but let's also try to break down Wilon's start. We'll begin with this: CJ Wilson isn't a very good pitcher. There was some debate on whether the Angels should have started him Sunday over basically anyone else in the rotation. When you owe a guy roughly $40M over the next two years, teams seem to have some sort of obligation, whether justified or not, to start him as much as possible (like a Barry Zito disorder). Thus, the Angels trotted out a pitcher in game 3 down 2-0 in a series that I probably wouldn't have even started in game 3 if my team were up 2-0.

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http://www.royalsreview.com/2014/10/6/6923119/cj-wilson-why

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Those aren't just the closest fWAR players though, but the bottom 9 qualified starters this year. So in game 3 of the ALDS, down by 2 games, the Angels started a bottom 10 pitcher. Coincidentally, there was a lot of dust kicked up about the Pirates starting Volquez in their Wild Card game. A Wild Card game Pittsburgh would lose handily.The Angels rotation was obviously hurt by the loss of Tyler Skaggs and Garrett Richards, so their options were limited, but they still could have started Hector Santiago who they traded for this past offseason and started last Sunday.In 50 less innings, Santiago was better or equal to Wilson (some of those innings came in relief). This isn't the point of the article, and Santiago may not have done better or worse than Wilson.

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