If you ask Astros fans about Jeff Bagwell, they say "no doubt HoF career, incredible player". Then if you ask same Astro fans about Fred McGriff they say "solid steady player, hall of very good player".

Compare the statistics of the two players. It will either change the perception of Bagwell or McGriff.

Just took a look. Bagwell clearly has an edge in BA, OB%, SLUG, OPS, SB, and similar milestone numbers yet playing 4 fewer years.

The numbers are similar, but Bagwell's were over 15 years, McGriff's over 19.

edit- what aggie1906 said.

Bagwell has an 80 WAR to McGriff's 57 in less years. WAR isn't everything, but that is a HUGE difference.

Bagwell was a 4-tool player most of his career -- average, power, speed/baserunning, and defense.

that's what separates him from the likes of Piazza, McGriff, et al

McGriff didn't steal bases, never won a gold glove, and didn't walk much compared to Bagwell.

quote:

---

Bagwell was a 4-tool player most of his career -- average, power, speed/baserunning, and defense.

---

He wasn't bad like the Crime Dog, but I wouldn't call him a good fielder.

That being said, being good at a few things shouldn't be better than being great at one thing. All that matters is creating runs on offense and preventing them on defense.

I would call him a good fielder. He had a strong glove digging balls out.

quote:

---

I would call him a good fielder. He had a strong glove digging balls out.

---

I agree. Bags was a hell of first baseman

Bagwell was a great fielder before his shoulder went out. He was a good fielding third baseman who ended up playing first base. He was unbelievable in fielding the bunt with a runner on a second and making the throw to third.

Wow. Bird man for the snot kicked out of him.

Bagwell missed a couple of markers (500 HR, 3000 hits) because of injury. He will be like Rice and Dawson - slowly and inexorably gaining over time until he finally gets over the mark on the 8th, 9th or 10th ballot. Asking this motley collection of voters to take into account things like park effect is asking way too much.

quote:

---

quote:

---

Bagwell was a 4-tool player most of his career -- average, power, speed/baserunning, and defense.

---

He wasn't bad like the Crime Dog, but I wouldn't call him a good fielder.

That being said, being good at a few things shouldn't be better than being great at one thing. All that matters is creating runs on offense and preventing them on defense.

---

Bagwell is top 50 all time in RBIs, averaging more than 100 per season (which includes injury shortened seasons). You'll note that only Babe Ruth, Joe Dimaggio, Lou Gherig, and Albert Pujols have more RBIs per year than Bagwell (of those in the top 50 all time)

He's only 63 all time in runs scored, but again, per season, you'll notice it's a similar list of people who outperform him.

Put another way, how many players, with at least 15 years in MLB have averaged 100 RBIs and 100 runs scored per season?

If you're the Bill James type who prefers numbers to baseball, take a look at the all time list for Runs Created. You'll find Bagwell sitting at 40th all time. You'll also notice that every player above him is either (a) in the HOF, (b) banned or blacklisted of some sort, (d) recently retired and not yet eligible for the HOF or early in the process, or (e) still playing.

If you don't think he was a good defender, then you aren't watching. I can't make you see something you refuse to see. He may not be able to see it either, the glare from his gold glove is pretty bright

By your own criteria, it's a crime he isn't already in

I agree he should be in. I don't think he was a good fielder, but the dude could rake.

A look at the next few years' eligibility - remember, Bagwell had 55.7% this year, and was second behind Piazza (69.9%) in terms of closest to getting in. Tim Raines third at 55.0% and was up 9% from last year.

2016 - Griffey Jr. is a shoe-in, and I would expect Trevor Hoffman has a decent chance as well, maybe not hte first year though: 2nd in saves all-time, 7 all-star games, 2.87 lifetime ERA. And don't look now, but Astros Mike Hampton, Billy Wagner, and Brad Ausmus are all eligible. I'd say Griffey and Piazza get in.

2017 - Vlad Guerrero, Jorge Posada, Pudge, and Man-Ram all eligible for the first time. Pudge seems like a mortal first-ballot lock; Man- Ram gets the 'roid treatment; Posada gets the Yankee suck-off and get more votes than he should; Guerrero basically is Bagwell's mirror image in a lot of ways, so he'll probably be hoping Bags gets in to strengthen his own case. Perhaps this is Bag's year, along with Pudge - a pair of legendary Astros.

2018 - Johnny Damon, Jim Thome, Chipper Jones. Jones surely gets in on the first ballot. Thome - dude hit 612 home runs, hard to ignore that. Damon will be in the Hall of Very Good. This could be another good spot for Bags, he and Chipper played a lot of playoff games against each other.

2019 - Lance Berkman, Roy Halladay, Todd Helton, Roy Oswalt, Mariano Rivera, Michael Young, Andy Petitte. Rivera might get the highest % ever; everyone else is only good, although Petitte will be interesting since he did roids, but admitted it and said why, and seemed largely forgiven.

2020 - Jeter. No one will be allowed to vote for any other player this year.

Yea Jeter may break the record.......ridiculous

quote:

---

Yea Jeter may break the record.......ridiculous

---

Take Jeter's top 5,6 years and match them up with Biggio's. Numbers aren't all that different. Still a slight edge to Jeter. Add his postseason play and Jeter is a stronger candidate than Biggio. It took Bidge 3 years. Jeter is somehow the ultimate day 1 lock. WTF!?

Agreed

Jeter is HOF caliber, plus he gets the dirty knees treatment for being a Yankee. When he gets in, there will be an uproar from the media to take away the ballots from anyone who didn't vote for him

quote:

---

quote:

---

Yea Jeter may break the record.......ridiculous

---

Take Jeter's top 5,6 years and match them up with Biggio's. Numbers aren't all that different. Still a slight edge to Jeter. Add his postseason play and Jeter is a stronger candidate than Biggio. It took Bidge 3 years. Jeter is somehow the ultimate day 1 lock. WTF!?

---

Being a lifetime Yankee or Red Sox and being good to great > getting 8,000 hits and 1,000 home runs for a franchise west of the Mississippi.

Canseco said he injected Pudge.

When asked if he was on the PED list, Pudge said "only God knows."


He is more tainted than Bagwell on the steroid issue.

Will be a shame when he doesn't get in on first ballot. But BBWA will feel holier than him. So we have that to look forward to.

Pudge should get the same treatment as Bonds, Clemens, etc.