Berra, Bench, Pudge

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94chem
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10:05a, 9/23/15
Berra's passing got me to do a little digging on Baseball-reference.com. I've assumed that Berra, Bench, and Pudge Rodriguez were on a plane above all other catchers, and I may be right. However, the position is so hard to evaluate, because you have an average defensive player in Mike Piazza who put up huge offensive numbers. There's also Carlton Fisk, whom I've always thought of as a great offensive player, but his dWAR of 16 is pretty darned impressive.

One player, who I already knew was one of the top 10 catchers of all time, really surprised me...Jim Sundberg. Sunny won 6 gold gloves, but his oWAR (28) was actually higher than his dWAR (25).

Would interested to see some other catching stats, but if you saw Sunny play, you know he was one of the very best players in Rangers' history, but like Danny White (or Tony Romo), he's in the shadow of the best player in franchise history who played the same position.
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Ag_07
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10:37a, 9/23/15
AG
I thought this was going to be historical look at catchers.

Take it to the Rangers thread.
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jja79
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10:44a, 9/23/15
AG
One of those doesn't belong.
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astros4545
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11:39a, 9/23/15
AG
How does WAR factor in Pudges rampant steroid usage?
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94chem
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11:41a, 9/23/15
I'm a pre-1990 stats junkie, so I don't understand the advanced, post-strike stats, but it looks like the dWAR has a position component, which means the defensive value of a catcher is weighted more than, say, a left fielder. This makes sense, at least conceptually, but does that also mean that zero dWAR for a catcher is not average, but in reality well below average?

Would appreciate a stats junkie to speak English to us!
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94chem
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11:46a, 9/23/15
All-time leaders in games caught:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/Gm_c_career.shtml
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BassCowboy33
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11:53a, 9/23/15
From everything I've read, Pudge and Bench are considered the two best defensive catchers of all time. When you factor in offense, Pudge probably slips a little.
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W
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11:56a, 9/23/15
AG
Pudge is excluded from any all-time great conversations because of steroids/supplements.

just look at his career HR profile/spike. SLG % too. It's a joke. Not even debate-able
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BassCowboy33
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In reply to W • 11:57a, 9/23/15
quote:
Pudge is excluded from any all-time great conversations because of steroids/supplements.

just look at his career HR profile/spike. SLG % too. It's a joke. Not even debate-able


Slippery slope.
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onceaggie
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12:00p, 9/23/15
AG
Gary Cater anyone?
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CampingAg
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12:01p, 9/23/15
AG
I'd love to have seen someone get the radar gun out or one of Pudge's throws to second.
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W
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12:02p, 9/23/15
AG
and 2 other often overlooked categories where Bench blows away Pudge:

Career walks:
Bench ---> 891
Pudge ---> 513

Career GiDP's:
Pudge ---> 337
Bench ---> 201

-------------------

Bench drew 100 walks in his phenomenal 1972 season of 40 HR & 125 RBI
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94chem
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12:07p, 9/23/15
Gary Carter is somewhere in the group with Piazza and Fisk, ahead of the group that contains Bob Boone and Jim Sundberg. These conversations about positions with a huge defensive component are interesting. Who was a better SS - Ozzie Smith or Derek Jeter? But I digress...
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W
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In reply to BassCowboy33 • 12:09p, 9/23/15
AG
it's not such a slippery slope anymore with 10 or so years of data since steroid testing began (circa 2005)
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94chem
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12:15p, 9/23/15
quote:
Career walks:
Bench ---> 891
Pudge ---> 513

Career GiDP's:
Pudge ---> 337
Bench ---> 201

That's some pretty impressive cherry picking. When you have 800 more hits and 700 more games caught, you rack up a few more DP's.
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94chem
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12:25p, 9/23/15
Also, compare SB in the NL and NL during the 70's and 80's. Bet there was a big difference. Gary Carter caught 35% of stealers for his career. Pudge caught 46% (vs league ave of 31%!), Boone 40%, Sundberg 41%. Sunny's years catching Ferguson Jenkins and Charlie Hough couldn't have helped his numbers. Bench caught 43%, vs league ave of 35%.
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helgs
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3:12p, 9/23/15
AG
Pudge will get in the Hall. Bleacher Report had a good article on why back when he retired:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1151986-ivan-pudge-rodriguez-retires-ped-rumors-shouldnt-affect-hall-of-fame-status

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jja79
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3:34p, 9/23/15
AG
Anyone touting Rodriguez obviously never saw the great Johnny Bench in his prime.
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birdman
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3:38p, 9/23/15
The Mount Rushmore of catching only has two guys: Bench and Rodriguez.
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gigem1223
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In reply to jja79 • 3:47p, 9/23/15
And anyone acting like Pudge isn't one of the greatest ever is a Houston fan.
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BMX Bandit
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7:15p, 9/23/15
Every player ever is tainted by cheating and shouldn't be considered among the greatest.
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LeFraud
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7:29p, 9/23/15
If pudge isn't in the discussion as a top 3 catcher of all-time, then biggio doesn't sniff the top 50 second basemen of all-time.
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94chem
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7:38p, 9/23/15
Interesting that you bring up Biggio. He was moved to 2B to prolong his career. However, Biggio and Pudge had similar career offensive numbers. Biggio had more walks and SB, but they had identical OPS. Biggio played 300 more games in the same length career because of not catching. Pudge collected 2844 hits and never moved to another position. If you look at the position, 2000 hits for a catcher is like 3000 for other positions. Pudge's 2844 is really an astounding number.
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fasthorse05
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10:24p, 9/23/15
Am I the only one who believes Piazza was shooting up. It's just an opinion, but it's something I've always believed.

And yes, I believed Pudge used as well. You're judged by whom you run with.
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jja79
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In reply to gigem1223 • 11:19p, 9/23/15
AG
Doesn't put him in the discussion with Johnny Bench.
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Nuke LaLoosh
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In reply to LeFraud • 7:58a, 9/24/15
AG
quote:
If pudge isn't in the discussion as a top 3 catcher of all-time, then biggio doesn't sniff the top 50 second basemen of all-time.


Congratulations. This may be the single dumbest thing I've ever read on this website.
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mhayden
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8:44a, 9/24/15
Biggio is Top 20 2nd baseman all-time.

Pudge is Top 3 catcher all-time.
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LeFraud
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In reply to mhayden • 9:11a, 9/24/15
quote:
Biggio is Top 20 2nd baseman all-time.

Pudge is Top 3 catcher all-time.

Agreed

Which is the difference. Ranger fans don't have any problem calling biggio a top 20 all time. But if anyone, say astro fans, don't believe pudge to be top 3, it's like saying biggio isn't top 50 (was my point).
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94chem
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10:10a, 9/24/15
Biggio is possibly top 10 all time. Joe Morgan, Rogers Hornsby, Roberto Alomar were obviously better. It depends on how you want to assign Rod Carew or Paul Molitor, but they were better. I have no knowledge of Nap Lajoie, but as a kid I remember that he was regarded as an all-time great. Biggio is right there in the group with Lou Whittaker, Ryne Sandberg, and Bill Mazeroski.

While I agree that 3000 hits is the Cooperstown auto-ticket, it doesn't matter much in the overall ranking of players. Take away Biggio's last 2 seasons, and his career credentials aren't much different from Buddy Bell, a top 20 all time 3rd baseman...and maybe higher.
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TXAggie2011
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In reply to W • 7:44p, 9/24/15
AG
quote:
Pudge is excluded from any all-time great conversations because of steroids/supplements.

just look at his career HR profile/spike. SLG % too. It's a joke. Not even debate-able
quote:
it's not such a slippery slope anymore with 10 or so years of data since steroid testing began (circa 2005)
What are you talking about?

His home runs steadily increased, peaking at 35 as a 27 year old in his 7th or so full season. Next year he hit 27 home runs in a stinted season (only 400 PAs) as a 28 year old in his 8th or so full season. Normal, as far as I know things to work.

After that, the home runs steadily decreased. 27-->25-->19-->16-->19-->14-->13-->11-->7-->10-->4 in his final full season.

The bolded seasons are 2005 and on...he was already in decline as a power hitter.

In 2003, he hit 16 home runs in 578 PAs. That is 36.125 plate appearances per home run.

Circa 2005 drug testing rolls around and he hits 14 home runs in 525 PAs. That is 37.5 plate appearances per home run.

His decline is not a" joke". That is certainly debatable.

He had a nice 2004. That's what you're hanging your hat on. And while fair enough, that doesn't end the argument. He was already in decline. His SLG% that season was .510. That was the second lowest SLG% he had in 6 seasons, dating back to 1997 and when he was 25 years old.

He was a catcher. He got beat up. He aged in years. He was declining before 2005.

Did Pudge use steroids? Maybe. Probably.

Did steroids make Pudge Rodriguez who he was? Does your argument carry much weight? "That's debatable."
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roginaustin
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12:12a, 9/25/15
S
The pudge Rodriguez ***** envy in this thread by what are clearly Astros fans is laughable. One of, if not the, greatest catcher of all time and your argument against is "he was on roids". No evidence mind you, but that's there stance. Well, if that's the case, and we''re just throwing **** against a wall to see if it sticks, who was on more likely on roids with these two franchise players, Pudge or Bagwell?
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ToddyHill
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5:44p, 9/25/15
AG
Hate to say this, but I was around when Bench was a rookie. Was pissed as **** when he won Rookie of the Year over Jerry Koosman in 1968 (Seaver won it in '67...was hoping two Met pitchers would win it in consecutive years).

I don't disagree...there have been some GREAT catchers since Bench....particularly Carter (God Bless Him!) and Pudge (still have a soft spot for him in spite of his steroid use). But at the end of the day...he was nails...the best there ever was. All imo.
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