Adverse Event said:

---

tysker said:

---

Bitcoin seems like a perfect tool/technology for its use case. It cannot be improved upon which is why I believe the long term value trends toward zero. There is nothing better and no more value that humans can add to BTC. Humans, however, can claim to know more than you and and extract rents from others. And the issue with BTC, is that those add-ons that intend to 'add value' only add risk and instability to the trust mechanism for which BTC relies.

I honestly think the blockchain (BTC and other cryptos) may be in the future, as fundamental to the human experience as running and lifting heavy things is to exercise, or the way mediation, prayer, and traveling is to 'finding oneself,' or the way the pulleys, hammers, shovels and wheelbarrows are to construction and farming. But the fundamental, intrinsic value of those stand alone tools/technologies is close to zero. The value add is what society does with those tools and technologies.

---

If we have superior enough communication across time and space I'm uncertain that the current conceptualization of money needs to exist. I'm wondering I'd you're touching on that theory of mine here.

I see bitcoin creating a system similar to the khipu and the Inca's (1000 years of peace, superior centralized resource planning via trustworthy and consistent/trusted communication). At least it's something worthy of looking at in the ancient world that aligns with bitcoin's potential.

As far as improvements, I agree its a relatively complete package currently that doesn't "need" anything, despite folks saying "it'll never take off unless [_____] happens."

I do think layer 2 applications and further on will be beneficial, although more like GUI updates rather than functional changes.

Value trending toward zero, agreed. But I think we hit close to $1M/BTC before dollars stop being accepted for bitcoin. Your posting history makes leads me to believe you think the opposite, that the dollar value will increase over btc until bitcoin is worth zero dollars. Is that accurate?

---

What difference does BTC/USD, BTC/EUR, or any another perceived Fx rate matter? If its a currency, sure maybe. If its a commodity, not so much really. If its a tool, the price is only reflective of the inputs and outputs and work it can produce.

BTC value is only what the marketplace deems it to be. I think over time the price will trend to intrinsic value like every other tool, technology, or asset. And the primary function that holds assets like BTC back is that, right now, there is little value humans can add without creating more risk to the embedded trust structure. It's too perfect for what it is supposed to do.

So the lightning network isn't useful or valuable and creates more risk to the already perfect btc network? Am I understanding you accurately?

Deluxe said:

---

cjsag94 said:

---

Deluxe said:

---

Once you understand why "crypto" is a scam and bitcoin is not a scam, you've got it figured out.

---

Securities regulations, accounting standards, fraud controls, etc. exist to protect the average citizen. I don't know what will happen with Bitcoin specifically, but blows my mind that this marketplace has been created that can rely on people to not understand why 1 crypto is ok but the rest are not, and that people and institutions can operate this way.

You can't invest in an unregistered investment without meeting certain restrictive qualifications, but any kid with a cell phone can buy crypto.

---

Agreed. Regulators have been asleep at the wheel over the last couple years. Part of me thinks they wanted the market to crash on its own, then crack down. As opposed to cracking down and then being blamed for the subsequent market crash. Who knows though. Either way, lots of lawsuits and jail time pending for entrepreneurs attempting to bypass securities law with their crypto products.

The difference between Bitcoin and the rest of "crypto" will be increasingly clear over the next couple years.

---

I think the main issue has been the entrepreneurs not wanting to comply. I've been brought in to propose helping several groups in the past 6 months with their NFT/crypto investment projects. Almost every time I counsel compliance and treating their project as a regulated securities offering, they move on. They don't want to pay legal fees.

tysker said:

---

Adverse Event said:

---

tysker said:

---

Bitcoin seems like a perfect tool/technology for its use case. It cannot be improved upon which is why I believe the long term value trends toward zero. There is nothing better and no more value that humans can add to BTC. Humans, however, can claim to know more than you and and extract rents from others. And the issue with BTC, is that those add-ons that intend to 'add value' only add risk and instability to the trust mechanism for which BTC relies.

I honestly think the blockchain (BTC and other cryptos) may be in the future, as fundamental to the human experience as running and lifting heavy things is to exercise, or the way mediation, prayer, and traveling is to 'finding oneself,' or the way the pulleys, hammers, shovels and wheelbarrows are to construction and farming. But the fundamental, intrinsic value of those stand alone tools/technologies is close to zero. The value add is what society does with those tools and technologies.

---

If we have superior enough communication across time and space I'm uncertain that the current conceptualization of money needs to exist. I'm wondering I'd you're touching on that theory of mine here.

I see bitcoin creating a system similar to the khipu and the Inca's (1000 years of peace, superior centralized resource planning via trustworthy and consistent/trusted communication). At least it's something worthy of looking at in the ancient world that aligns with bitcoin's potential.

As far as improvements, I agree its a relatively complete package currently that doesn't "need" anything, despite folks saying "it'll never take off unless [_____] happens."

I do think layer 2 applications and further on will be beneficial, although more like GUI updates rather than functional changes.

Value trending toward zero, agreed. But I think we hit close to $1M/BTC before dollars stop being accepted for bitcoin. Your posting history makes leads me to believe you think the opposite, that the dollar value will increase over btc until bitcoin is worth zero dollars. Is that accurate?

---

What difference does BTC/USD, BTC/EUR, or any another perceived Fx rate matter? If its a currency, sure maybe. If its a commodity, not so much really. If its a tool, the price is only reflective of the inputs and outputs and work it can produce.

BTC value is only what the marketplace deems it to be. I think over time the price will trend to intrinsic value like every other tool, technology, or asset. And the primary function that holds assets like BTC back is that, right now, there is little value humans can add without creating more risk to the embedded trust structure. It's too perfect for what it is supposed to do.

---

These two sentences contradict each other. The first one is correct, the second one is not. Value is a combination of a good's usefulness (objective intrinsic properties) and its desirability (subjective). In my opinion you don't understand why BTC has value because A) you haven't yet grasped why its so useful and B) you are only considering half of the equation needed to calculate the value of anything.

Adverse Event said:

---

So the lightning network isn't useful or valuable and creates more risk to the already perfect btc network? Am I understanding you accurately?

---

Lightning network only unwinds some of the scalability problem of BTC and potentially making it a more convenient payment system. That is all it does. Its just another protocol or code. So cool, we get faster payments using less energy (maybe?).

It still doesn't solve the human problem of bad actors and rent seeking. Every time a person stakes their coins, creates leverage, or puts coins on an exchange, risk is being added to the system. And its in those risks that are opportunity for profit and exploitation. And as those risks are mitigated (assuming they can be) the profits will trend to zero and thus marginal value add trends toward zero.

@NFLPlayerProps said:

---

tysker said:

---

Adverse Event said:

---

tysker said:

---

Bitcoin seems like a perfect tool/technology for its use case. It cannot be improved upon which is why I believe the long term value trends toward zero. There is nothing better and no more value that humans can add to BTC. Humans, however, can claim to know more than you and and extract rents from others. And the issue with BTC, is that those add-ons that intend to 'add value' only add risk and instability to the trust mechanism for which BTC relies.

I honestly think the blockchain (BTC and other cryptos) may be in the future, as fundamental to the human experience as running and lifting heavy things is to exercise, or the way mediation, prayer, and traveling is to 'finding oneself,' or the way the pulleys, hammers, shovels and wheelbarrows are to construction and farming. But the fundamental, intrinsic value of those stand alone tools/technologies is close to zero. The value add is what society does with those tools and technologies.

---

If we have superior enough communication across time and space I'm uncertain that the current conceptualization of money needs to exist. I'm wondering I'd you're touching on that theory of mine here.

I see bitcoin creating a system similar to the khipu and the Inca's (1000 years of peace, superior centralized resource planning via trustworthy and consistent/trusted communication). At least it's something worthy of looking at in the ancient world that aligns with bitcoin's potential.

As far as improvements, I agree its a relatively complete package currently that doesn't "need" anything, despite folks saying "it'll never take off unless [_____] happens."

I do think layer 2 applications and further on will be beneficial, although more like GUI updates rather than functional changes.

Value trending toward zero, agreed. But I think we hit close to $1M/BTC before dollars stop being accepted for bitcoin. Your posting history makes leads me to believe you think the opposite, that the dollar value will increase over btc until bitcoin is worth zero dollars. Is that accurate?

---

What difference does BTC/USD, BTC/EUR, or any another perceived Fx rate matter? If its a currency, sure maybe. If its a commodity, not so much really. If its a tool, the price is only reflective of the inputs and outputs and work it can produce.

BTC value is only what the marketplace deems it to be. I think over time the price will trend to intrinsic value like every other tool, technology, or asset. And the primary function that holds assets like BTC back is that, right now, there is little value humans can add without creating more risk to the embedded trust structure. It's too perfect for what it is supposed to do.

---

These two sentences contradict each other. The first one is correct, the second one is not. Value is a combination of a good's usefulness (objective intrinsic properties) and its desirability (subjective). In my opinion you don't understand why BTC has value because A) you haven't yet grasped why its so useful and B) you are only considering half of the equation needed to calculate the value of anything.

---

Why is BTC "so useful" in your opinion?

Just asking that question illustrates my point precisely. If you honestly don't understand why BTC is useful, how can you possibly have a logical discussion about its value? If you do, why would you waste both our time with a stupid question like that?

"It cannot be improved upon which is why I believe the long term value trends toward zero."

While this statement seems rather bizarre to me, I have good news for you. There's now a Short Bitcoin ETF available to purchase so your vision of the future can manifest actual financial gain.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/20/proshares-is-launching-a-short-bitcoin-etf-this-week.html

This is a really easy way for you to profit on the decline of Bitcoin's value. Happy to help!

tysker said:

---

Adverse Event said:

---

So the lightning network isn't useful or valuable and creates more risk to the already perfect btc network? Am I understanding you accurately?

---

Lightning network only unwinds some of the scalability problem of BTC and potentially making it a more convenient payment system. That is all it does. Its just another protocol or code. So cool, we get faster payments using less energy (maybe?).

It still doesn't solve the human problem of bad actors and rent seeking. Every time a person stakes their coins, creates leverage, or puts coins on an exchange, risk is being added to the system. And its in those risks that are opportunity for profit and exploitation. And as those risks are mitigated (assuming they can be) the profits will trend to zero and thus marginal value add trends toward zero.

---

You're conflating topics and not making a coherent argument here. Bad humans will always exist. A debate about what is superior money will not negate the existence of such people, although Bitcoin as a technology absolutely limits their ability to grift you from the federal government level.

@NFLPlayerProps said:

---

Just asking that question illustrates my point precisely. If you honestly don't understand why BTC is useful, how can you possibly have a logical discussion about its value? If you do, why would you waste both our time with a stupid question like that?

---

I understand why I think BTC is useful, but that may not jive with why you think it is useful. Which is why i asked the question. I'm discussing in good faith. If you wanna talk **** we can move to Politics board where its more accepted.

Quote:

---

It will store the value I create better over time than fiat and can be sent around the globe easier than gold.

---

The latter I agree with 100% and is the pure use case for BTC. Time will determine if any value will be stored

exp said:

---

"It cannot be improved upon which is why I believe the long term value trends toward zero."

While this statement seems rather bizarre to me, I have good news for you. There's now a Short Bitcoin ETF available to purchase so your vision of the future can manifest actual financial gain.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/20/proshares-is-launching-a-short-bitcoin-etf-this-week.html

This is a really easy way for you to profit on the decline of Bitcoin's value. Happy to help!

---

Too much daylight exposure for my taste. If you want that exposure, just short it through your broker. Not sure why this product needs to exist.

Market incentives prevent consistently bad behavior from "good or bad" actors. Market incentives also thoroughly promote good behavior from all actors, whether Iranian terrorist, Somali pirate, CIA, or mother next door. This is the game theory behind proof of work. If you cannot prove your work, it has no value.

exp said:

---

tysker said:

---

Adverse Event said:

---

So the lightning network isn't useful or valuable and creates more risk to the already perfect btc network? Am I understanding you accurately?

---

Lightning network only unwinds some of the scalability problem of BTC and potentially making it a more convenient payment system. That is all it does. Its just another protocol or code. So cool, we get faster payments using less energy (maybe?).

It still doesn't solve the human problem of bad actors and rent seeking. Every time a person stakes their coins, creates leverage, or puts coins on an exchange, risk is being added to the system. And its in those risks that are opportunity for profit and exploitation. And as those risks are mitigated (assuming they can be) the profits will trend to zero and thus marginal value add trends toward zero.

---

You're conflating topics and not making a coherent argument here. Bad humans will always exist. A debate about what is superior money will not negate the existence of such people, although Bitcoin as a technology absolutely limits their ability to grift you from the federal government level.

---

My argument may be too metaphysical.
BTC is a technology which is perfectly adept at doing the thing it was designed to do: make frictionless payments possible. BTC is a tool, nothing more nothing less, just like the wheel or pulley. It's we humans that use the tool and through using the tool add value to another product or system. And it's through human ingenuity that tools are used, value id added, and profits can be made (or through product inefficiencies but again BTC perfectly adept at its use case) using other product or systems.

However when humans try to 'create value' using BTC, the result is either more BTC (which is why it looks like a ponzi scheme) or more risk is created within the system with the need and desire for exchanges, hot wallets, leverage etc. Now, this is fine as long as BTC market price increases and there are lots of frictionless payments being made. But when you reached maximum 'created value' all you have left is risk.

So what is really happening is we are trying to place a 'value' on "the wheel" which frankly kind of makes no sense and why I think the marginal value of BTC trends to zero over time. But the market price seems to valuing BTC based on the value add which is speculative and has yet to be flushed out, I think in no small part because there is no real value add to be created again because BTC is basically perfect for what it intended to do.

The wheel was created, and infinite variations of wheels exist.

The value of the concept "wheel" is unfathomable. The value of any individual wheel is dependent on use case and timing.

The value of Bitcoin's conception is infinity, it's individual tokens within its network will range in value spectacularly, dependening on use case and timing.

But...doesn't fortune favor the brave? Matt said so.

tysker said:

---

exp said:

---

tysker said:

---

Adverse Event said:

---

So the lightning network isn't useful or valuable and creates more risk to the already perfect btc network? Am I understanding you accurately?

---

Lightning network only unwinds some of the scalability problem of BTC and potentially making it a more convenient payment system. That is all it does. Its just another protocol or code. So cool, we get faster payments using less energy (maybe?).

It still doesn't solve the human problem of bad actors and rent seeking. Every time a person stakes their coins, creates leverage, or puts coins on an exchange, risk is being added to the system. And its in those risks that are opportunity for profit and exploitation. And as those risks are mitigated (assuming they can be) the profits will trend to zero and thus marginal value add trends toward zero.

---

You're conflating topics and not making a coherent argument here. Bad humans will always exist. A debate about what is superior money will not negate the existence of such people, although Bitcoin as a technology absolutely limits their ability to grift you from the federal government level.

---

My argument may be too metaphysical.
BTC is a technology which is perfectly adept at doing the thing it was designed to do: make frictionless payments possible. BTC is a tool, nothing more nothing less, just like the wheel or pulley. It's we humans that use the tool and through using the tool add value to another product or system. And it's through human ingenuity that tools are used, value id added, and profits can be made (or through product inefficiencies but again BTC perfectly adept at its use case) using other product or systems.

However when humans try to 'create value' using BTC, the result is either more BTC (which is why it looks like a ponzi scheme) or more risk is created within the system with the need and desire for exchanges, hot wallets, leverage etc. Now, this is fine as long as BTC market price increases and there are lots of frictionless payments being made. But when you reached maximum 'created value' all you have left is risk.

So what is really happening is we are trying to place a 'value' on "the wheel" which frankly kind of makes no sense and why I think the marginal value of BTC trends to zero over time. But the market price seems to valuing BTC based on the value add which is speculative and has yet to be flushed out, I think in no small part because there is no real value add to be created again because BTC is basically perfect for what it intended to do.

---

You're missing the point on creating value. Value creation is building a house for someone where they pay you money. Or selling them fruit. Or performing cleaning or accounting services that they find valuable. I can store that value in dollars or in Bitcoin.

Bitcoiners like to store the value in Bitcoin. There's no limit to this value beyond what humans can create. If more value is stored in the network over time the price will appreciate. If less, it will depreciate.

And if a certain sequence of events occurs most people will start denominating their value saved in BTC not fiat. The latter doesn't change the bottom of creating value and storing it with BTC.

exp said:

---

tysker said:

---

exp said:

---

tysker said:

---

Adverse Event said:

---

So the lightning network isn't useful or valuable and creates more risk to the already perfect btc network? Am I understanding you accurately?

---

Lightning network only unwinds some of the scalability problem of BTC and potentially making it a more convenient payment system. That is all it does. Its just another protocol or code. So cool, we get faster payments using less energy (maybe?).

It still doesn't solve the human problem of bad actors and rent seeking. Every time a person stakes their coins, creates leverage, or puts coins on an exchange, risk is being added to the system. And its in those risks that are opportunity for profit and exploitation. And as those risks are mitigated (assuming they can be) the profits will trend to zero and thus marginal value add trends toward zero.

---

You're conflating topics and not making a coherent argument here. Bad humans will always exist. A debate about what is superior money will not negate the existence of such people, although Bitcoin as a technology absolutely limits their ability to grift you from the federal government level.

---

My argument may be too metaphysical.
BTC is a technology which is perfectly adept at doing the thing it was designed to do: make frictionless payments possible. BTC is a tool, nothing more nothing less, just like the wheel or pulley. It's we humans that use the tool and through using the tool add value to another product or system. And it's through human ingenuity that tools are used, value id added, and profits can be made (or through product inefficiencies but again BTC perfectly adept at its use case) using other product or systems.

However when humans try to 'create value' using BTC, the result is either more BTC (which is why it looks like a ponzi scheme) or more risk is created within the system with the need and desire for exchanges, hot wallets, leverage etc. Now, this is fine as long as BTC market price increases and there are lots of frictionless payments being made. But when you reached maximum 'created value' all you have left is risk.

So what is really happening is we are trying to place a 'value' on "the wheel" which frankly kind of makes no sense and why I think the marginal value of BTC trends to zero over time. But the market price seems to valuing BTC based on the value add which is speculative and has yet to be flushed out, I think in no small part because there is no real value add to be created again because BTC is basically perfect for what it intended to do.

---

You're missing the point on creating value. Value creation is building a house for someone where they pay you money. Or selling them fruit. Or performing cleaning or accounting services that they find valuable. I can store that value in dollars or in Bitcoin.

Bitcoiners like to store the value in Bitcoin. There's no limit to this value beyond what humans can create. If more value is stored in the network over time the price will appreciate. If less, it will depreciate.

And if a certain sequence of events occurs most people will start denominating their value saved in BTC not fiat. The latter doesn't change the bottom of creating value and storing it with BTC.

---

That's reads like BTC is a collectible. You basically admit is no intrinsic value other than the perceive value its holders place upon it. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for a technology with future uses outside of our imagination.

Seems like a good time for this…

"If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry." - Satoshi Nakamoto

You're either trolling at this point or are too engrained in your viewpoint to be open to other perspectives, which is fine.

That a BS response from Satoshi. Dismissive of any person that may have a differing opinion or challenging perspective. The sort of thing street preachers say. Would that line ever work in your place of work?

There is no good asset or bad asset only your personal financial goals and what will get to achieve your financial goals.

Listening to these discussions... If it takes this level of depth of thought and understanding for this to become mainstream, then it never will. I can only assume those few of you going back and forth are really well studied on these topics, you all are sound smart!

As I said in my original post, which I believe more now after reading all of this think tank stuff, it can't go on in its free for all form that it exists today. So the discussion needs to evolve into how can this be adopted as something other than a FOMO rabbit hole for the masses. I think this is why the fiat controls exist, like them or not.

Maybe so but I can understand the sentiment after only two years of advocating for it on this board. I haven't participated in this conversation but it's following a similar pattern as many others. It gets exhausting after awhile.

ADVERSE EVENT has spoken.. make it so! Very condescending and know it all, but spoken nonetheless.

Finding an example like the Internet to prove your point is about as unscientific as you can get. Most big ideas and transformations fail many times until they either lose relevance or evolve into something completely different before it goes mainstream.

That's been one of issues with many of these discussions. Its like people are promoting ideas and switching between definitions as needed to make their points. I have argued that BTC is closer in construction and purpose to TCP/IP than it is the 'internet' and is value should be conceptualized more in that context.

How much do you pay now for TCP/IP or HTTP or DNS? Very little and at the same time they are immeasurably important to the existence and usage of internet. So the value is in some ways both 0 and infinity at the same time (like 'priceless' artwork for instance).

Now imagine you can go back and load up on betamax videos. This illogical argument isn't the right one to make.

ETA: especially when you base it on hindsight.

TCP/IP is a suite of protocols each of which are needed for different purposes and compete with each for use cases. BTC is just one blockchain protocol amongst many