Timing Market Bottom

5,147 Views | 35 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by oldarmy1
BlueHeeler
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I would like everyone's thoughts on the below. Would this be a good strategy to come up with an "all in" S&P number?

1.) Determine the point in time the 2yr/10yr treasury spread "un-inverts". Set the below to 1990-present and take a look at this versus the S&P:

10-Year Treasury Constant Maturity Minus 2-Year Treasury Constant Maturity (T10Y2Y) | FRED | St. Louis Fed (stlouisfed.org)

Seems like the S&P bottom typically occurs 6-8mo after the un-inversion.

2.) Use other S&P chart technicals to confirm the bottom is in (moving average support, MACD, etc).

OldArmyCT
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Can you name me one single investor in the history of the US stock markets who has been successful at market timing?
Baby Billy
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My question is why would you even try to time it? So you don't have to see your account temporarily decline in value once every 5-6 years?
BlueTaze
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I suppose you are talking about a near term bottom before another leg up?

I think we get a squeeze up before Mid 2023 just because there is so much bearish positioning and recession talk right now. Beyond that, who knows. Fed isn't supposed to QE that quick, but not doing so may create another crash. The only thing I do know know is that the Larry Finks of the world will get tipped off before us retail peasants.
Bob Knights Liver
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OldArmyCT said:

Can you name me one single investor in the history of the US stock markets who has been successful at market timing?

There are lots of traders who are successful at market timing. No they don't sell at the absolute top and no they don't pick the absolute bottom, if that's what you were referring to, but many can swing trade SPX or QQQ and do better than the market over time.
Brian Earl Spilner
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OldArmyCT said:

Can you name me one single investor in the history of the US stock markets who has been successful at market timing?


Jim Cramer, just in the opposite direction.
Bob Knights Liver
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WD Gann
George Soros
Paul Tudor Jones
Charles Dow
Richard Dennis
JSKolache
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IDK about all that technical bs, just dont buy in September. End Q3 has always been flat to brutal. Buy in October.
BlueHeeler
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Quote:

I suppose you are talking about a near term bottom before another leg up?
Yes. My goal is to try to be a little smarter about putting some cash back in versus the advise I get with friends at lunch like "I just keep buying a little every time it goes down". I feel like I can do better than that. The treasury spread seems to be a pretty reliable leading indicator. So, I have been trying to figure out a way to use that and some other things to come up with a strategy.
Tea Party
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OldArmyCT said:

Can you name me one single investor in the history of the US stock markets who has been successful at market timing?

Pelosi
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AggieDruggist89
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Never fails...

TexAgs B&I feels that no one should ever time the market nor can anyone ever profit from it.

I feel most of them must have lost their ass when they tried so no one else should even try.
Furlock Bones
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AggieDruggist89 said:

Never fails...

TexAgs B&I feels that no one should ever time the market nor can anyone ever profit from it.

I feel most of them must have lost their ass when they tried so no one else should even try.
no its because there is troves of data that says you will be wrong.
Civen
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Furlock Bones said:

AggieDruggist89 said:

Never fails...

TexAgs B&I feels that no one should ever time the market nor can anyone ever profit from it.

I feel most of them must have lost their ass when they tried so no one else should even try.
no its because there is troves of data that says you will be wrong.
And because anyone who has a successful method for doing it isn't posting it on a college football message board.

They're sitting on the private island they bought and never mentioning their system to anyone.
AggieDruggist89
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Civen said:

Furlock Bones said:

AggieDruggist89 said:

Never fails...

TexAgs B&I feels that no one should ever time the market nor can anyone ever profit from it.

I feel most of them must have lost their ass when they tried so no one else should even try.
no its because there is troves of data that says you will be wrong.
And because anyone who has a successful method for doing it isn't posting it on a college football message board.

They're sitting on the private island they bought and never mentioning their system to anyone.


So you're saying there are investors who successfully time the market.
WC94
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Keep your powder dry!
Just an Ag
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October 24th.



around midday.
Motis B Totis
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Losers wait, winners buy
Baby Billy
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lobwedgephil
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Bonfire97 said:

Quote:

I suppose you are talking about a near term bottom before another leg up?
Yes. My goal is to try to be a little smarter about putting some cash back in versus the advise I get with friends at lunch like "I just keep buying a little every time it goes down". I feel like I can do better than that. The treasury spread seems to be a pretty reliable leading indicator. So, I have been trying to figure out a way to use that and some other things to come up with a strategy.
Depends on your time frame, if your friends time frame is 20-40 years, adding on every dip will work very well. What you are trying to do has never been successful done with consistency, you can't time a bottom. We might hit 2950 SPX the year, bounce to 4300 next year, and come back down to 2000 3 years later. How do you time that?

Good timing overall, would be when you start hearing your friends talking about selling it all, getting out, buy then.
JohnLA762
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AggieDruggist89 said:

Never fails...

TexAgs B&I feels that no one should ever time the market nor can anyone ever profit from it.

I feel most of them must have lost their ass when they tried so no one else should even try.


It's actually the exact opposite. Most of them continually buy instead of trying to time the market, and have amassed a fortune…
jamey
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Charismatic Megafauna
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Try to pick bottom, get stinky finger
YouBet
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Not an advocate of timing the market. Have never even attempted it.

However, if the coming 4Q doesn't scare someone into finally pulling some stuff out of the market I'm not sure what will.

There is a good chance Europe goes into depression or could even collapse. That alone should scare the **** out of everyone. Now factor in all of the coming food shortages that haven't caught up to the world yet. Now factor in our President who is flat out declaring half the population are domestic terrorists trying to kill democracy.

We haven't seen headwinds like this in decades, if ever.

I'm not sure yet where I'm moving it but I'm going to put 50% off our holdings into the most conservative thing I can; just not sure what that is yet and I also realize that isn't a great move either.

Absolutely dark and scary times.
$30,000 Millionaire
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OldArmyCT said:

Can you name me one single investor in the history of the US stock markets who has been successful at market timing?


Paul Tudor Jones
You don’t trade for money, you trade for freedom.
EliteZags
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when did you go all out? if it was Q4/earlyQ1 then get back in and you've already won
AggieDruggist89
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JohnLA762 said:

AggieDruggist89 said:

Never fails...

TexAgs B&I feels that no one should ever time the market nor can anyone ever profit from it.

I feel most of them must have lost their ass when they tried so no one else should even try.


It's actually the exact opposite. Most of them continually buy instead of trying to time the market, and have amassed a fortune…


Buy what???????

So... Is timing the market frowned upon for the stock market only or does it apply to real estate too???
$30,000 Millionaire
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I feel compelled to post because I want to dispel a myth that seems to propagate here. A lot of you all believe that timing the market is about binary bets where you pick the dead low, go all in, and then sell at the dead high. That's just not how trading or investing works.

The best thing I can say is that it depends on your time horizon and I don't think about all of my money the same way.

Long term accounts are always 50-100%, more like 75%+, invested in quality companies and indexes. I do hedge with puts and I do sell covered calls and sell puts in these accounts when I think the market gets extended one way or the other. I do not trade short in my long term account other than protective puts. I don't own bonds in these accounts anymore either. I add to these accounts constantly. I avoid individual names unless I know they're high quality and can be counted upon like Apple, Goldman, or Exxon.

My short term account I "time the market" primarily with high volatility names and options. The truth is that I trade setups and probabilities with appropriate risk management. It's not degenerate gambling like you guys think. Some of my favorites are UPRO, LABU, and GUSH. I know when I'm entering, why I'm entering, and when I'm selling good or bad.

Buy and hold is for most people. Active trading is for people who can control their emotions. It takes years to master and I tell that to anyone who wants me to teach them.

So now, to the heart of your question, you won't know the market has bottomed until after it has. It's actually probably better to wait for confirmation if you're trying to time it (using your language). I can give you my opinion of good spots to buy and scenarios where I think the probability of upward momentum is high. Do with it as you wish.

This first chart is a monthly chart for the Dow. I know a bunch of posters on this thread are boomers that follow the Dow. So first off, "OK Boomer" and secondly, the Dow will bounce in the 29,000 area. I think that's a good spot to buy for the long term that you can feel good about. If you notice, we are close.

The second chart is a weekly chart of the Dow. When the yellow line crosses the blue line, you can be confident that an uptrend has resumed. Then you want to buy when price touches the blue line. The yellow line is the 10 week moving average and the blue line is the 50 week moving average. These don't cross very often and normally don't stay crossed as long as we have this year. For reference this stayed crossed for 18 months from 2008 - 2009. Cross until bottom was 15 months.

I don't think we are in times that are as severe as 2008, but if you're wanting to catch a bottom, this is how.


You don’t trade for money, you trade for freedom.
$30,000 Millionaire
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YouBet said:

Not an advocate of timing the market. Have never even attempted it.

However, if the coming 4Q doesn't scare someone into finally pulling some stuff out of the market I'm not sure what will.

There is a good chance Europe goes into depression or could even collapse. That alone should scare the **** out of everyone. Now factor in all of the coming food shortages that haven't caught up to the world yet. Now factor in our President who is flat out declaring half the population are domestic terrorists trying to kill democracy.

We haven't seen headwinds like this in decades, if ever.

I'm not sure yet where I'm moving it but I'm going to put 50% off our holdings into the most conservative thing I can; just not sure what that is yet and I also realize that isn't a great move either.

Absolutely dark and scary times.


Looking forward to this as an investor. The moment the panic selling starts I'm going to be there to take their shares.
You don’t trade for money, you trade for freedom.
YouBet
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We don't have the same underlying weaknesses like we did in 2008...(yet.....but we will now that Biden and the banks have said there will be different mortgage rules by ethnicities), but do you not think Europe's pending catastrophe won't impact us?

I'm kind of amazed at the number of people who are completely unaware of that or simply scoff at it as if it's no big deal (not that you are either of these types of people).
$30,000 Millionaire
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Things have a remarkable way of working out. I think Europe will have a recession but not a depression. Winter will pass.

Gazprom is giving up a lot of revenue not to sell to Europe. They'll work out a deal.
You don’t trade for money, you trade for freedom.
Bird Poo
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I also do not think European politicians will starve their populations because of the Ukraine. When SHTF, they'll come to the table. In fact, I read today that Europe has already secured 75% of their gas reserves they will need for this winter.

I timed the market knowing Biden was going to F everything up. Obama did the same thing. Pulled everything out around Thanksgiving last year when fuel started creeping up. This country slows way down when fuel is expensive. Same thing happened with Obama. Years of 1% or less GDP. And those *******s bragged about it.

So I'm sitting on the sidelines and have so far avoided losing hundreds of thousands in value in my 401K. I also put 1/3 of my portfolio in a Vanguard commodity fund but I'm getting ready to pull that out as well, after that inexplicable disgusting speech by our POS president. They are getting desperate and I don't know why. The rhetoric goes beyond normal political catfighting.
YouBet
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EU countries are now starting to bail out energy companies to stop "contagion". I'm not remotely as confident as some of you on the EU containing this. Hope I'm wrong.
techno-ag
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YouBet said:

EU countries are now starting to bail out energy companies to stop "contagion". I'm not remotely as confident as some of you on the EU containing this. Hope I'm wrong.
Germany is leasing more floating LNG terminals but of course they won't be ready by this winter. Also Europe is securing contracts with Israel and other "nearby" sources. But yeah their knee jerk reaction is to use socialist regulations. And they hope to convert the terminals to "green hydrogen" later.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/01/business/germany-lng-russia-green-energy.html
The left cannot kill the Spirit of Charlie Kirk.
BlueHeeler
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Quote:

The second chart is a weekly chart of the Dow. When the yellow line crosses the blue line, you can be confident that an uptrend has resumed. Then you want to buy when price touches the blue line. The yellow line is the 10 week moving average and the blue line is the 50 week moving average. These don't cross very often and normally don't stay crossed as long as we have this year. For reference this stayed crossed for 18 months from 2008 - 2009. Cross until bottom was 15 months.
30K, thanks for the response. This is very good input. I went back and looked at the weekly S&P chart and this would have also worked well back in the 2001 downturn. The 10 SMA crossing the 50 SMA seems to define when the upper resistance level is broken through coming back off the bottom. I follow you and a few others on the "stock markets" thread and have learned quite a bit. Thanks!
htxag09
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