We can directly measure the economic impacts of tariffs. Unlike tariffs, there are legitimate roles for regulations, corporate taxes, and government agencies that promote growth and are net neutral or even bring in more than they cost. Corporate taxes rates and tariffs are absolutely not equivalent.

Legitimate in your opinion. Government agencies don't promote growth either. Again, you can't disparage tariffs while promoting these things.

Many think tariffs are "legitimate" as well.

Ragoo said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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People do talk about those things. In this case, however, tariffs are directly a tax on consumption. There's no separating tariffs from prices and the price is felt most by those at the bottom of the economic ladder. In return they're being asked to shoulder more economic pain for some nebulous gains in the distant future, and those gains are for other people.

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tariffs are a tax on importation, consumed or not. They could be consumed. They could sit idle and later consumed at a discount to move stagnant inventory. You don't know.

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The cost of the product is raised. If not consumed, the company that imports them eats the cost and must make up for the lack of consumption some way. Usually by raising costs on what is consumed.

Sounds like a middleman. You're shuffling money around and picking winners and losers. Just like tariffs.

This simply isn't true. You have a naive view of government.

TTUArmy said:

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TheMasterplan said:

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Sounds like a middleman. You're shuffling money around and picking winners and losers. Just like tariffs.

This simply isn't true. You have a naive view of government.

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This is exactly right.

Anyone who believes government can allocate money better than the market holds a very rosey view of government...not that markets are perfect. The difference being, when markets screw up, the failures either drive them out or they smartly pivot to stay alive. We have a huge problem with zombie companies being kept alive by government's misallocation of funds and resources. And, there is no corrective action to shed the market of these companies...until now.

I think the DOGE team has done a fabulous job of exposing the tip of the iceberg on the waste, abuse, and outright fraud of government...some of it likely subsidizing these zombie companies.

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Which waste, fraud, and abuse? Have they found any, or are they still triple counting fake numbers?

Uh tariffs are definitely picking winners and losers as they are used to protect domestic industries.

People pay higher prices for certain products due to tariffs whereas that extra cash/savings would've been used elsewhere in the economy. Look up the bastiat's broken window fallacy.

Same thing with increased costs from regulations, corporate taxes, price/rent controls and taxpayer money used to fund government agencies.

TTUArmy said:

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TheMasterplan said:

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Sounds like a middleman. You're shuffling money around and picking winners and losers. Just like tariffs.

This simply isn't true. You have a naive view of government.

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This is exactly right.

Anyone who believes government can allocate money better than the market holds a very rosey view of government...not that markets are perfect. The difference being, when markets screw up, the failures either drive them out or they smartly pivot to stay alive. We have a huge problem with zombie companies being kept alive by government's misallocation of funds and resources. And, there is no corrective action to shed the market of these companies...until now.

I think the DOGE team has done a fabulous job of exposing the tip of the iceberg on the waste, abuse, and outright fraud of government...some of it likely subsidizing these zombie companies.

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The irony of this whole post is insane considering that Musk's wealth is mostly based on a company, in Tesla, that only survived from government handouts and continues to get more in government funding than DOGE is ever likely to "save".

Sapper Redux said:

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TTUArmy said:

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TheMasterplan said:

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Sounds like a middleman. You're shuffling money around and picking winners and losers. Just like tariffs.

This simply isn't true. You have a naive view of government.

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This is exactly right.

Anyone who believes government can allocate money better than the market holds a very rosey view of government...not that markets are perfect. The difference being, when markets screw up, the failures either drive them out or they smartly pivot to stay alive. We have a huge problem with zombie companies being kept alive by government's misallocation of funds and resources. And, there is no corrective action to shed the market of these companies...until now.

I think the DOGE team has done a fabulous job of exposing the tip of the iceberg on the waste, abuse, and outright fraud of government...some of it likely subsidizing these zombie companies.

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Which waste, fraud, and abuse? Have they found any, or are they still triple counting fake numbers?

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Well they did remove the ID numbers from the wall of receipts so that people can't call them out for 99% of it being bull**** any more. I mean if we can't pretend that a 1.9 billion dollar IT contract canceled under Biden is actually a 1.9 trillion dollar DOGE savings, then what has the world come to?

Just some economic data in anticipation of "liberation day" as a nice baseline. Remember most of these fantastic (in a post-truth sense) numbers are BEFORE any tariffs are enacted...

On April 1, the #GDPNow model nowcast of real GDP growth in Q1 2025 is -3.7%: https://t.co/T7FoDdgYos. #ATLFedResearch

Download our EconomyNow app or go to our website for the latest GDPNow nowcast: https://t.co/NOSwMl7Jms. pic.twitter.com/fuAjjyTTFR

— Atlanta Fed (@AtlantaFed) April 1, 2025

March ISM Manufacturing PMI down to 49.0 vs. 49.5 est. & 50.3 prior … new orders down to 45.2 vs. 48.6 prior; prices paid up sharply to 69.4 vs. 62.4 prior … employment down to 44.7 vs. 47.6 prior pic.twitter.com/ftG61tupOc

— Liz Ann Sonders (@LizAnnSonders) April 1, 2025

The S&P 500 is on track for its worst quarter compared to the rest of the world since the 1980s, per Bloomberg. pic.twitter.com/GVX4YN1w5U

— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) March 31, 2025

I don't think I have to even post a stock market chart. Our allies are being forced to work with China because of our behavoir. Inflation expectations are rising - especially on cars. Looking forward to a liberating Q2.

Gordo14 said:

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Just some economic data in anticipation of "liberation day" as a nice baseline. Remember most of these fantastic (in a post-truth sense) numbers are BEFORE any tariffs are enacted...

On April 1, the #GDPNow model nowcast of real GDP growth in Q1 2025 is -3.7%: https://t.co/T7FoDdgYos. #ATLFedResearch

Download our EconomyNow app or go to our website for the latest GDPNow nowcast: https://t.co/NOSwMl7Jms. pic.twitter.com/fuAjjyTTFR

— Atlanta Fed (@AtlantaFed) April 1, 2025

March ISM Manufacturing PMI down to 49.0 vs. 49.5 est. & 50.3 prior … new orders down to 45.2 vs. 48.6 prior; prices paid up sharply to 69.4 vs. 62.4 prior … employment down to 44.7 vs. 47.6 prior pic.twitter.com/ftG61tupOc

— Liz Ann Sonders (@LizAnnSonders) April 1, 2025

The S&P 500 is on track for its worst quarter compared to the rest of the world since the 1980s, per Bloomberg. pic.twitter.com/GVX4YN1w5U

— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) March 31, 2025

I don't think I have to even post a stock market chart. Our allies are being forced to work with China because of our behavoir. Inflation expectations are rising - especially on cars. Looking forward to a liberating Q2.

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I mean, at least if we're going to wreck our economy, we can also lose all of our staunchest allies in the process.

Does anybody on this board or F16 even have a post from the past 5+ years about how upset they were that Canada was ripping us off?

I don't think I have ever seen anyone provide any source showing how we were getting ripped off. It is just a talking point that is constantly regurgitated over and over.

YouBet said:

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Captain Winky said:

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I don't think I have ever seen anyone provide any source showing how we were getting ripped off. It is just a talking point that is constantly regurgitated over and over.

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Goes back to other countries who have protectionist tariffs for their own domestic products where we do not. Couldn't tell you what that impact is.

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How does that translate to us getting "ripped off"? We get their stuff cheaper. They pay more for everything. Sounds like we win.

YouBet said:

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Captain Winky said:

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I don't think I have ever seen anyone provide any source showing how we were getting ripped off. It is just a talking point that is constantly regurgitated over and over.

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Goes back to other countries who have protectionist tariffs for their own domestic products where we do not. Couldn't tell you what that impact is.

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They don't have protectionist tariffs. They have anti-dumping tariffs (quotas) that kick in if we were to flood their market with far more of certain things than we've ever done before. Many countries have quotas to protect their businesses from dumping - that is distinctly different than blanket tariffs.

I just think the idea that Canada or frankly any country is ripping us off when our economy and our businesses have completely outperformed and run over the whole globe under free trade conditions is hilarious.

Here's Canada:
https://images.app.goo.gl/YokLwuKVRwyAfEw49

https://images.app.goo.gl/3sEjVYoUKdKph4je6

https://images.app.goo.gl/rarN1aHfXV2Dyugx7

Economic illiteracy is king now.

Also the concept of reciprocal tariffs is hilarious. #1 can you imagine the beaurocracy needed to manage thousands of different tariff rates for every single country at every port of entry. I thought the goal was to shrink the government and make it more efficient. #2 why would we ever tariff Mexico for avacados or Ethopia for coffee just because they have tariffs for those products themselves. #3 Doesn't tariffing inputs that our businesses use to make things disadvantage US companies in global markets? Do we think that GM or Ford or boeing are going to be competitive now that their input costs have gone way up. What about complex business processes that go back and forth across North American borders - are we tariffing these things 3, 4, 5 times over and back. It is liberating the absolute clown show this administration is - **** according to Bloomberg they are still debating what they are going to do tomorrow right now. I've never felt more competent or qualified personally.

Americans in 2025 are the richest people to ever inhabit the earth. And we are miserable and angry about it.

Maybe mother Theresa was right and poverty is the path to happiness.

We're waging war on a desolate French island off Canada that imposed a 0% tariff on us because someone imported ~$3.4m of goods from the island in July 2024 and they don't buy anything from us.

Trade was balanced for years (here's 2023), that one contract (which I have been trying to find) has landed them the highest tariff rate

Thankfully given that St Pierre barely imports anything from the US it won't have an impact but it's an insight on how unserious this method… pic.twitter.com/pdeorLkVUv

— François Valentin (@Valen10Francois) April 3, 2025

He didn't wage war across the board.

No new tariffs on Cuba, North Korea, Belarus and Russia.

themissinglink said:

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We're waging war on a desolate French island off Canada that imposed a 0% tariff on us because someone imported ~$3.4m of goods from the island in July 2024 and they don't buy anything from us.

Trade was balanced for years (here's 2023), that one contract (which I have been trying to find) has landed them the highest tariff rate

Thankfully given that St Pierre barely imports anything from the US it won't have an impact but it's an insight on how unserious this method… pic.twitter.com/pdeorLkVUv

— François Valentin (@Valen10Francois) April 3, 2025

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I look forward to seeing numerous outraged posts about this island has been "ripping us off" for decades and how great this move is for the American worker.

Chappelle had a skit from 7 years ago on Trump's trade policy...

This is what happens when Americans begin believing in our own form of Juche.

The funniest part isn't what they have done, but the fact that they don't even understand what they did.

They set ε at 4 and φ at 0.25 which results in them effectively being removed from the equation by equalling 1 when multiplied.

Then it just becomes trade deficit/imports. https://t.co/nkxeZSLYp5 pic.twitter.com/Ot9qzB6HGp

— Oliver Alexander (@OAlexanderDK) April 3, 2025

Ghost of Bisbee said:

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Great opportunity to start buying more equities

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Equities are down 3-5% based on yesterday's news. If the tariffs remain in place for an extended period of time, they probably should be down 40-50%.

Also, I can't get the link to work, but it appears that they make have compiled and broken down their list by internet domain rather than country. That's why Diego Garcia and the unpopulated Antarctic islands are listed and Gibraltar and Reunion are listed separately from their actual nations. This is clown show level bull*****

Sapper Redux said:

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Also, I can't get the link to work, but it appears that they make have compiled and broken down their list by internet domain rather than country. That's why Diego Garcia and the unpopulated Antarctic islands are listed and Gibraltar and Reunion are listed separately from their actual nations. This is clown show level bull*****

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That is correct. Well not sure if they did it by internet domain, but we made sure to tariff the **** out of some small islands that are territories of other countries. Some of them are not much more than penguins. But it still sounds like the admin quietly didn't include Russia or Belarus.

Red Pear Realty said:

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I cannot understand how so many people are so bad at negotiating, or maybe it's just hatred of Trump preventing basic thinking skills, so I'm going to lay it out like you're 5:

Step 1. Trump posts:

"Thousands of people are pouring through Mexico and Canada, bringing Crime and Drugs at levels never seen before. On January 20th, as one of my many first Executive Orders, I will sign all necessary documents to charge Mexico and Canada a 25% Tariff on ALL products coming into the United States, and its ridiculous Open Borders. This Tariff will remain in effect until such time as Drugs, in particular Fentanyl, and all Illegal Aliens stop this Invasion of our Country!"

Step 2a. The president of Mexico responds immediately by saying:

"Caravans of migrants no longer reach the border," Sheinbaum said on Tuesday while presenting a letter she plans to send to Trump in the coming days. She also emphasized Mexico's efforts to curb the flow of drugs, including the synthetic opioid fentanyl, while noting that it remains "a public health and consumption problem within your country's society."

https://www.newsweek.com/caravans-not-reaching-border-says-mexico-president-after-trump-threats-1991916

Step 2b: Canadian leaders respond similarly:

The premier of Ontario, the most populous province and the country's industrial heartland, said Trump had good reason to be worried about security of the long shared frontier.

"Do we need to do a better job on our borders? 1,000 percent ... we do have to listen to the threat of too many illegals crossing the border," Doug Ford told reporters.
"We have to squash the illegal drugs, the illegal guns."

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canadas-trudeau-meet-provincial-premiers-this-week-discuss-us-ties-2024-11-26/

Step 3. There is no step 3. Trump accomplished what he aimed to do with a single quick and simple social media post. Get our neighbors kicked into high gear doing what he wants. This is what leadership looks like. You may not agree with the policy aim, but what he did was immediately effective.

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I am still waiting for Red Pear to come on here and ELI5 how dumb we all are for thinking tariffs would actually take effect.

You must have made a TON of money off the market knowing that tariffs would actually take affect! Such big swings in the market this week alone!