JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

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Trump is interested in enriching himself, his family and those that fawn over him. If those goals align with your political preferences, then good deal. But let's not pretend the guy spends any time considering how he can make life better for the average American. The greatest political feat I've seen in my lifetime is him getting people to believe he cares about them while he backlines himself at his inauguration with 3 of the wealthiest people on earth.

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So do you think Obama and Biden and Harris aren't raging narcissists whose primary goal is to manipulate the system to enrich themselves? Is Trump unique in that regard? Biden spent 50 years in elected office and somehow left worth eight figures. How does that happen if he isn't manipulating the system to his own benefit? DC is the most corrupt place on earth and Biden is the poster child for that corruption. They're all raging narcissists and the system benefits them at our expense.

As I've already said Trump's policies are significantly better for the middle class than the Democrats who promote the corrupt status quo with a side of high crime, higher taxes and high energy costs. Nothing you said refutes those points. The system is completely hostile to the middle and working classes and Trump sees that as an opportunity and has decided to jump in and do something. I don't like a lot of what he's done and wants to do but at least he's willing to call it what it is, a corrupt cesspool with the liars and thieves stealing from the rest of us. In 2024 a vote for Harris was a vote for the status quo meaning more corruption and more power consolidation in DC and Trump is undeniably moving things in a different direction. You don't have to like him to understand he's the lesser of two evils right now. Populism is on the rise globally and Trump is a big driver of that right now. Yes I think it's self centered for him but he's still a better option than the status quo.

LOYAL AG said:

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JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

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Trump is interested in enriching himself, his family and those that fawn over him. If those goals align with your political preferences, then good deal. But let's not pretend the guy spends any time considering how he can make life better for the average American. The greatest political feat I've seen in my lifetime is him getting people to believe he cares about them while he backlines himself at his inauguration with 3 of the wealthiest people on earth.

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So do you think Obama and Biden and Harris aren't raging narcissists whose primary goal is to manipulate the system to enrich themselves? Is Trump unique in that regard? Biden spent 50 years in elected office and somehow left worth eight figures. How does that happen if he isn't manipulating the system to his own benefit? DC is the most corrupt place on earth and Biden is the poster child for that corruption. They're all raging narcissists and the system benefits them at our expense.

As I've already said Trump's policies are significantly better for the middle class than the Democrats who promote the corrupt status quo with a side of high crime, higher taxes and high energy costs. Nothing you said refutes those points. The system is completely hostile to the middle and working classes and Trump sees that as an opportunity and has decided to jump in and do something. I don't like a lot of what he's done and wants to do but at least he's willing to call it what it is, a corrupt cesspool with the liars and thieves stealing from the rest of us. In 2024 a vote for Harris was a vote for the status quo meaning more corruption and more power consolidation in DC and Trump is undeniably moving things in a different direction. You don't have to like him to understand he's the lesser of two evils right now. Populism is on the rise globally and Trump is a big driver of that right now. Yes I think it's self centered for him but he's still a better option than the status quo.

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Everyone is seeking power, wealth, and influence. Trump is an exaggerated form of everyone else you mentioned (see his crypto **** coin or DJT stock - both things more established politicians would never dare to do even if they are enriching themselves on some scale). And often times politicians when they get some benefits actually make sure it aligns with citizens of the country to some degree. To be honest, I don't even care if politicians become well off to some extent... It's happened in every government since then dawn of civilization. The difference is Trump goes to another level that is absolutely egregious and can only be for himself. But his fans are complete nihilists about it.

LOYAL AG said:

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IowaAg07 said:

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I somewhat disagree that his coalition includes the middle class. He's done more to erode the middle class than any other group. I would argue that his coalition is the ultra wealthy and the working class. He's found his message - there are a lot of people angry about globalization and he's going to make sure he amplifies that message any which way he can. Globalization has generally kept prices low for a long time as we squeeze efficiency out of the global supply chain, until it all started catching up in very tangible inflation that everyone can see in the day to day. And to bring it back to the topic at hand - tariffs are going to exacerbate that problem even further, and I would much rather see policies that incentivize the industries and goods that really matter rather than broad, sweeping, punitive policies that are being pushed at the moment.

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Everything I've seen says the ultra wealthy vote Democrat and have for years. Polling ahead of the election showed Harris winning with people making over $200k and under $30k and Trump winning everything in the middle. For at least 30 years the Democrat platform has been the wealthy and the poor fleecing the middle class. Trump's tax policies are pro middle class, particularly those around small business owners which are near universally middle class. There's two sides to every coin and the Democrats have zero to offer the middle class which is why that group largely doesn't vote Democrat. The working class has largely abandoned the Democrats which is why so many labor unions didn't endorse Harris this time around.

Globalization is dying and it has nothing to do with Trump. It's dying because the U.S. doesn't need it anymore and the rapidly changing demographics both domestically and globally are changing the economics of labor everywhere. All his policies have done is emphasize the problems with the system due to the unwillingness of our global "partners" to compete on a level playing field. China prints money at a significantly faster pace than the U.S. and they do it to suppress the cost of Chinese labor so that the rest of the world can't compete and that's what he's trying to show. His tariff policies are designed to encourage producers to increase domestic production which is good for the working class, the group most hurt by globalization.

To be clear the issues we're seeing are structural and I'm in no way saying Trump is right. I am saying the political factions in the U.S. are rearranging and Trump is a big driver of that. The middle class is pro-Trump and relative to the competition his policies are much friendly to that group than anything coming from the Democrats who promote policies that lead to higher crime, higher taxes, higher energy costs and lower wages due to unfettered immigration. There's a reason the middle class doesn't vote Democrat.

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Again I don't think there's a lot of truth to whst you said at all. The middle class, upper middle class, and lower upper class actually moved democrat. The Trump coalition is lowest education coalition in history... And below average income. Plus some rich tech bros to fund it all.

Hard to overstate just how rapid the changes in US party coalitions have been.

The Democrats are now the party of high education *and* high income voters. Just 12 years ago, the inverse was true.

On these terms, the Trump coalition was closer to Obama 2008 than the Harris one! pic.twitter.com/7GqqT8G7rb

— Patrick Flynn (@patrickjfl) November 7, 2024

The point is, Trump voters are more like Bill Clinton voters and Obama voters.

The chart above is why I would call myself a John McCain, Mitt Romney, Ronald Reagan Republican. If the parties are changing why would I call myself a blinf supporter of the Republican party anymore. They clearly no longer represent my values.

Trump brought in a new group of voters to the R party the first time around.

That's who I think is buying tarrifs means more jobs at home stuff. We'll just make it in the US for a higher sale price

Not only do we not have the cheap labor market for, never mind he's deporting a chunk of it, but companies aren't going to invest anything on short term executive orders

Your values align with Mitt Romney and John McCain?

You say that like its a bad thing

I worked in mining in Western Canada for years and there was a company that owned the timber rights to the land we mined. To access the minerals, we would have to clear the timber and stack it at the edge of our lease for the timber owners' convenience. More often than not, the wood would rot before they would haul it away. There was so much wood cut by others, they could prioritize wood that was free to them and close to the sawmill. The reason they can sell their wood so cheap isn't because of government subsidies, it was because their raw material cost is almost 0.

LMCane said:

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Jason_Roofer said:

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One thing I don't understand about the economy is how we can legitimately make things competitively in the US. I understand tariffs used to leverage on better pricing on exports. But, for instance, I am a huge fan of buying USA made stuff. My work boots are Made in USA. Sometimes by union labor. They also cost about $300 compared to a similar Chinese made boots at 150 or less. So, how does it work knowing that US made products are so much more expensive? Won't that just make the costs go up? Educate me. It's not like you can just "make them cheaper" here.

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this is the entire point of laying tariffs my friend-

other countries subsidize the sale of their products INTO America, while they place restrictions on our ability to sell into their own home markets.

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That's not at all what's going on. In some cases governments do subsidize things, but almost 100% of the reason why America doesn't dominate every part of every supply chain is due to comparative advantage. Comparative advantage shows itself in multiple ways. It can be geographic or resource driven or it could just be that America is better at high value add labor instead of low value add labor. Therefore it is more economically efficient for America to give up making the low value widget that's easily mass produced in favor of designing the next generation of the machine that uses the widget. On a macro scale, America doesn't have enough people to do everything, therefore it's impossible for doing everything or just the low value add work to be America's comparative advantage. - therefore it's impossible for America to compete on price for low value widgets with say Vietnam. It's economic gravity. Countries end up subsidizing the low value add industry because they often have little to no moat for other countries to take over their production of low value add goods.

America will be much better off if we focus on specializing on our strengths, and nearshore/friendshore the rest.

infinity ag said:

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All other countries apply tariffs on us. They do so because it benefits them. We have been fools, morons and nice guys.

That all changes.

Trump's tariffs will either force other countries to remove their tariffs on us.
OR
Trump's tariffs will level the playing field. If 2 countries both apply 25% tariff on each other, it will somewhat cancel out (though not exactly).

Let's do it!

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Our allies do not put tariffs on us. We famously have a free trade agreement with both Mexico and Canada and have had it since Clinton.

Tariffs are a tax on Americans and they incentivize inefficient behavoir which further destroys value beyond the cost of the tariff.

https://images.app.goo.gl/qNAHPaK4bXGF9EqV7

It's economics 101.

So state it plainly - tariffs do or tariffs do not raise prices for consumers? And please show the math behind your answer, which I assume shows how Canadian oil is absorbing a 25% tariff.

Perfect. Please post whatever benchmark you want to use for a barrel of crude at a representative grade, and we'll bookmark to check prices "staying flat or going down" over the next 12-18 months. Some quick (definitely not exhaustive) Google searches say Canadian crude has 19-27% margin in recent years, and your math says they are going to take single digit margins to compensate for our tariffs moving forward.

I don't mind the "America first" philosophy (though I do think we're going to need allies to combat China's rising power) but I disagree completely on the execution. If you want to encourage more US oil drilling, or even the playing field against countries that subsidize certain industries, or raise or lower the trade deficit, or really any of his goals, then there are better ways to do it. It's one thing if we were debating "is the increase in prices worth the economic and trade benefits of tariffs" but instead we're debating whether one of the fundamental rules of economics actually holds true. Next up - supply and demand, I guess.

This idea that we're going to put tarrifs on manufactured goods that are larger than the net profit margins, while simultaneously deporting the people in the US who do low wage labor all in an effort to bring back manufacturing seems poorly thought out

Heineken-Ashi said:

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Gordo14 said:

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infinity ag said:

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All other countries apply tariffs on us. They do so because it benefits them. We have been fools, morons and nice guys.

That all changes.

Trump's tariffs will either force other countries to remove their tariffs on us.
OR
Trump's tariffs will level the playing field. If 2 countries both apply 25% tariff on each other, it will somewhat cancel out (though not exactly).

Let's do it!

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Our allies do not put tariffs on us. We famously have a free trade agreement with both Mexico and Canada and have had it since Clinton.

Tariffs are a tax on Americans and they incentivize inefficient behavoir which further destroys value beyond the cost of the tariff.

https://images.app.goo.gl/qNAHPaK4bXGF9EqV7

It's economics 101.

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Economics 101 takes things in a vacuum and assumes "all else equal".

But in trade, all else is not equal. Tariffs on paper are a tax, but that assumes the tariff is passed from the producer / exporter to the consumer / importer and that the consumer demand stays the same. Often times, the consumer demand will soften, and the exporter eventually has to lower the price, thus eating some, if not all, of the tariff, or finding a new trading partner. That is why anyone who got beyond economics 101 understands that tariffs are put in place to affect change in behavior and/or protect domestic producers. For example, Canadians can't afford to sit on their oil exports and don't have the capability to export to anyone else in the same quantity and efficiency as they do to America. They don't import anything from us that can similarly affect us, and we can find new partners quickly. So they can't afford to Jack up our price and risk loss of demand, nor they can afford any other option. They only option for them is to cave to our demands, or absorb the blow themselves.

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All right, I'll bite. As a citizen of the largest consuming country in the world, would you say that your demand softening is correlated with better or worse quality of life? Simple question really.

Also, Canada has been a very important strategic ally for America since ****ing 1812. One of our closest and most important allies. And you think it's genius to now hold them hostage because for decades they've built infrastructure pointed to America because it was in both of our strategic intrests for that to happen. They were counting on us being an equitable partner when they built the Keystone pipeline for example. And then we get oompa loompa in chief in office and we **** them over. Strategic genius.

We've got a senile, delusional, narcissist at the wheel. And you thought life was bad the last 4 years. If you aren't careful, **** is going to break. You might think that's awesome in the thoughtless internet kind of way, but the truth is Americans don't know real suffering.

You didn't talk about what happens if the tariff eats the entire margin of an exporting business in Canada. You didn't talk about how now Canada is incentivized to maximize exports away from the US at almost any cost. You can do a lot to find new demand with a 25% margin enhancement to play with. Sure Canada is going to have to eat some of these tariffs (yay, we're so powerful), but not everything. At the end of the day, we will probably knock Canada into a recession (high five), but we very much might end up in a recession ourselves if this continues for any real amount of time. And now we've changed the dynamic of our relationship with all of our allies forever - big win!

Ronald Reagan: “Our peaceful trading partners are not our enemies; they are our allies.

We should beware of the demagogues who are ready to declare a trade war against our friends—weakening our economy, our national security, and the entire free world—all while cynically waving… pic.twitter.com/Lr5gK9fP9r

— Republicans against Trump (@RpsAgainstTrump) January 31, 2025

Ronald Reagan would be disgusted with oompa loompa's tariffs.

JUST IN: British Columbia says it will no longer buy American liquor from red states in response to U.S. tariffs pic.twitter.com/eevA6oQUtY

— BNO News Live (@BNODesk) February 2, 2025

#winning

WATCH: Loud booing of the U.S. national anthem at NHL game in Canada, after Trump announces tariffs pic.twitter.com/aEovtuW2eE

— BNO News Live (@BNODesk) February 2, 2025

Let's keep winning!

Your Keynesian love is known. We're going a new direction now. No anounts of insults and temper tantrums toward the president is going to change that. History will judge.

Gordo14 said:

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WATCH: Loud booing of the U.S. national anthem at NHL game in Canada, after Trump announces tariffs pic.twitter.com/aEovtuW2eE

— BNO News Live (@BNODesk) February 2, 2025

Let's keep winning!

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Be honest, Trump has been the first thing you think about in the morning and the last thing you think about at night. Been that way for 8+ years. You are consumed by him.

I didn't realize Keynesian was a derogatory word now. Can you help me understand what has replaced it? I don't have a degree in economics but I do have an MBA and try to follow markets, so if there's some other school of thought we should be following I'm interested.

What's funny is that many of the posters are debating the policies instead of the man, but it seems like F16 can't help themselves from invading other discussions. Let me summarize the pro-tariff arguments - tariffs are good because Trump is powerful and puts America first, and Biden sucks. Nevermind the fact that Biden actually kept many of Trump's tariffs around and there is clear data that shows that tariffs increased prices under both Trump and Biden.

I'm sure a large number of Americans have always followed their feelings over metrics and data, but Trump really empowers the uneducated masses to speak their mind loudly and confidently.

IowaAg07 said:

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I didn't realize Keynesian was a derogatory word now. Can you help me understand what has replaced it? I don't have a degree in economics but I do have an MBA and try to follow markets, so if there's some other school of thought we should be following I'm interested.

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It should be derogatory. Dude was not even an economist, but his theories allowed governments to justify spending into perpetuity.

Unfortunately, nothing has replaced it yet.

The other school of thought is the Austrian School of Economics.

I wasn't a fan of Biden's policies either. I'm a registered Independent and I'm frustrated with the crap both parties are bringing forward. I find it funny that posters are being made fun of for being "traditional Republicans" - I believe in smaller Federal government, which I thought most Republicans did too until Trump came along. Trump did nothing to curb spending even when he had all the power the first time, and Biden definitely didn't either.

Being for or against Biden or for or against Trump has nothing to do with being for or against tariffs. Not a single pro-tariff poster has put together an argument that is honest about the impact of tariffs but is willing to trade it for the trade benefits. It's either a negotiation tactic or it magically won't hit the consumer prices.