Will be interesting if we can learn the attrition rate on these two cards over course of year. Lot of people haven't downgraded yet simply because they aren't due for a reup.

Once we get through year one of the new fees I wonder if they reconsider fee price at all based on how many people downgrade. Of course, they can simply increase the fees on the lower tier cards to offset. Maybe they already have. I dont know.

Most card fees are there to cover the initial and yearly costs of specific extra perks and partnership offering costs. They make their money primarily on interchange rates and those customers that don't pay off their cards in full and pay high interest rates. As those new extra perks and lounges get added, the annual fees will most likely continue to rise.

Exactly. I'll take the two percent cash back on my Citi card which I redeem once a year.
I don't have the time or patience to track the other perks and I don't want to be in an airport lounge. Direct flight or not going.

Proposition Joe said:

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If we're just talking point value and travel, right now Chase is far and away the best. There has been devalue, but the prices to book offered in their portal far exceed that of AMEX.

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Plus Amex only gives you 70 cents on the dollar when you to try book a hotel through their portal. But most enthusiasts skip the portal and transfer to points programs. I used the Chase portal a LOT before their devaluation, but that's now one of the reasons I'm turning away from them.

Leander - Ag said:

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Home airport is Austin so lounges sux (they even closed the super small chase area).

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i think the delta lounge is nice there

I went through this analysis a couple of years ago and ended up with the Venture X. CSR didn't appear to be that great beyond the signup bonuses, and the authorized user fee on the Amex Platinum eroded a lot of the value there.

ETA: If I flew through LGA or PHX often enough, I'd go seriously consider the CSR for the lounge access alone. The LGA lounge is very nice.

jh0400 said:

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I went through this analysis a couple of years ago and ended up with the Venture X. CSR didn't appear to be that great beyond the signup bonuses, and the authorized user fee on the Amex Platinum eroded a lot of the value there.

ETA: If I flew through LGA or PHX often enough, I'd go seriously consider the CSR for the lounge access alone. The LGA lounge is very nice.

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Venture X sort of bridges the gap between a cash back card and a points card. Minimal coupon book, easy-to-offset annual fee, flat earning rates. I know a lot of people with that one.

I'm constantly out of luck with LGA. Flight availability always has me flying into LGA and out of JFK. I visited the JFK Chase lounge and it's nice, but it's in the international terminal and it's a pain to visit if you're flying domestic.

Jeeper79 said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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If we're just talking point value and travel, right now Chase is far and away the best. There has been devalue, but the prices to book offered in their portal far exceed that of AMEX.

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Plus Amex only gives you 70 cents on the dollar when you to try book a hotel through their portal. But most enthusiasts skip the portal and transfer to points programs. I used the Chase portal a LOT before their devaluation, but that's now one of the reasons I'm turning away from them.

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It's 1:1 for FHR, correct? It's been awhile since I have burned points on an FHR booking but that is the transfer rate I remember (which I admit still isn't great but still an option if you have a lot of points).

I have a Platinum paired with a Gold; save the everyday purchases for a good cash/airline card but otherwise between the two you can get 5x on airlines and hotels and 4x on restaurants and groceries. Still, in order to justify the new Platinum fees you probably need to find a way to consistently use the hotel credits and/or live somewhere you can use the Resy credits (plenty of good options here in DFW).

Ag CPA said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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If we're just talking point value and travel, right now Chase is far and away the best. There has been devalue, but the prices to book offered in their portal far exceed that of AMEX.

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Plus Amex only gives you 70 cents on the dollar when you to try book a hotel through their portal. But most enthusiasts skip the portal and transfer to points programs. I used the Chase portal a LOT before their devaluation, but that's now one of the reasons I'm turning away from them.

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It's 1:1 for FHR, correct? It's been awhile since I have burned points on an FHR booking but that is the transfer rate I remember (which I admit still isn't great but still an option if you have a lot of points).

I have a Platinum paired with a Gold; save the everyday purchases for a good cash/airline card but otherwise between the two you can get 5x on airlines and hotels and 4x on restaurants and groceries. Still, in order to justify the new Platinum fees you probably need to find a way to consistently use the hotel credits and/or live somewhere you can use the Resy credits (plenty of good options here in DFW).

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Not sure about FHR since I've never booked one, but I seem to recall the Hotel Collection wasn't full 1:1 when I booked recently.

I travel a ton for work and a little for pleasure - home bases are IAH + SLC. I picked up the United Club card 3 years ago, the Schwab Amex Plat 2 years ago and really have enjoyed them both. I tracked the Plat benefits and got over $4700 in benefits in year 1, on track for about the same in year two. Also, the new Centurion lounge in SLC is pretty amazing. IAH? Not so much but I usually do UA Clubs there. So, for me, it is a no-brainer.

The United Card is a little harder for me to quantify the benefits, but I'm in UA Clubs ~25 times a year and generally use miles to apply to personal airfare at $0.01/mile (not great, I know). The mileage conversion benefit + other misc things like InstaCart+ translate to about $3k/year for me, so I guess that's a good return on the $695/yr fee.

Prior to all this, I just used my Costco Visa cash back card, but decided 3 years ago I wanted to enjoy my business travel time a bit more and step up my personal travel (e.g. Amex Fine Hotels + Resorts) a bit. The opening of the SLC Centurion lounge was a catalyst.

Never considered CSR since my travel is almost 100% concentrated on UAL, IAH and SLC. Another deterrent as I understand it for me would be the reward travel bookings through 3rd parties. That said, the LGA and BOS lounges are very, very nice.

Full disclosure: We did just sign up for a new CSR, but that's strictly for the one-time sign up bonus. The value proposition for year 2 is not there for us so we'll cancel after a year.

If you like to travel, I don't find it that hard to get value out of the CSR and Amex Plat.

Just during Spring Break, I got close to $1K in value on the combo of cards for a New Orleans trip.

It takes a bit more effort than it used to, but better upside as well. Just have to stay on top of the perks and promos.

My primary card was CSR until mid-'22 when I switched to Amex Plat. The points and rewards were far better with CSR, but the customer service is much better with Amex. I book all of my travel through Amex travel because it's really easy to cancel and modify plans through them by talking to a plain, English speaking human. I use the Delta and Centurion lounges a few times per year, but the best "perk" in my opinion is the excellent customer service. The Centurion lounges typically have a waitlist, but the Delta lounges are usually better anyway.

My wife and I spend enough that we more than offset the annual fee, but I'm sure the rewards would be far more valuable with a 1.5-2% cash back card.

If you fly mostly Delta, I think k that usually tips the scales towards Amex Platinum. I fly AA and OneWord alliance so neither CSR nor Platinum has a leg up for me. I've never had trouble earning points within the MR ecosystem, either. I just find that I'm not able to use them very well once I have them. I used to dump them into Hawaiian Airlines, but that partnership is dead.

Booking through a portal is and always has been a pretty crummy use of points. It takes a little more digging and understanding of different programs, but transferring points to partners is where the real value is in these points.

Captain Winky said:

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Booking through a portal is and always has been a pretty crummy use of points. It takes a little more digging and understanding of different programs, but transferring points to partners is where the real value is in these points.

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I discovered that the hard way when I found the perfect itinerary last summer for a trip on United's website that would have allowed us to fly direct and then went to book it on Chase's portal and that flight option wasn't available. Wound up having to fly with connections that got delayed both ways.

Several of you have hit on some of the key reasons I avoid the "aggregator" high annual credit cards (like Capital One, Chase Sapphire, AMEX, others). The coupon and proprietary point systems have inherent flaws to consumers, and built-in advantages to the card companies.

Coupons: Uber, Lyft, DoorDash, etc. are actually profit centers for the cards - they get paid to offer these lead generation coupons, and probably a kicker based on usage. The providers have priced in marketing costs to promote sign-ups and usage of their services, and this is likely a better ROI than advertising or social media for them.

Proprietary "Travel Portals": Also a profit center, to the consumer's detriment. Not only are their fares and rates worse, they are also commissionable and quite profitable for the card companies. They can effectively devalue their points at any time by changing the rates they offer, as well.

Lounge Access: As is readily seen from recent changes, they can adjust access and rules at any time they feel like restricting cardholders from this benefit.

Transfer of Points to airline/hotel chains: As others have stated, this is perhaps the best use of card points, but watch out for restrictions in place or to come in the future. Realize that the card companies get volume discounts on the points/miles, so this is also potentially a profit center for them over their initial pricing (certainly over what it takes for consumers to earn rewards.

Note - I have no grudge against these cards - they're companies trying to turn a profit. But, unless you're careful, you're just paying a high annual fee for "benefits" that are actually mostly a benefit to the card issuer. I prefer to piecemeal out my rewards from the "manufacturer" of the miles/points (i.e. United, Hilton, Hertz, etc.), and cut out the middleman who may change the rules in the middle of the game. Once again, it depends what you're trying to maximize (i.e. lounge access, free trips, discounts), but in most cases, a 2% cash back provides a greater return than these increasingly convoluted aggregation cards.

Yeah, and I understand canceling/getting a refund or credit for something you've bought off a portal (other than Amex) is very cumbersome compared to dealing directly with the travel provider. That alone is a big deterrent to me.

MyMamaSaid said:

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Yeah, and I understand canceling/getting a refund or credit for something you've bought off a portal (other than Amex) is very cumbersome compared to dealing directly with the travel provider. That alone is a big deterrent to me.

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It is. The one time I used the Chase Ultimate Rewards portal to book airfare I ended up cancelling it. You can't simply cancel online. I was forced to call Chase UR and suffer through a 15 minute phone call with multiple steps just to cancel my booking.

your point about hotel/flight rates being worse in some situations is fair, but why would I care if the perks are "profit centers" for the companies?

As long as the value I'm getting from the perks exceeds the AF, it shouldn't matter. It's just a matter of tracking each year to make sure it's still providing value. When it stops, you cancel.

I don't personally put a ton of value in the lounge access anymore, as they're often on wait lists when I travel, but the Amex Lounge did come in handy during a long layover recently. Even without that, it's a valuable card for me just for the perks. I don't really have much use for it for daily spend.

The CSR still has value for B&R spend, but most of my activity goes toward the RH Gold 3% cash back.

As far as cancelling trips, I've never had an issue with Amex or Chase Travel.

I don't have a ton of experience with flights on these portals, as I'll usually transfer points to Air Canada for United flights, but I always remember there being a "cancel trip" button.

I'm a cheap ass and rarely buy refundable tickets, so it doesn't come into play much in any case.

Diggity said:

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I don't have a ton of experience with flights on these portals, as I'll usually transfer points to Air Canada for United flights, but I always remember there being a "cancel trip" button.

I'm a cheap ass and rarely buy refundable tickets, so it doesn't come into play much in any case.

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There wasn't for me, unfortunately. I had to call. I booked an AA flight.

Diggity said:

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your point about hotel/flight rates being worse in some situations is fair, but why would I care if the perks are "profit centers" for the companies?

As long as the value I'm getting from the perks exceeds the AF, it shouldn't matter. It's just a matter of tracking each year to make sure it's still providing value. When it stops, you cancel.

I don't personally put a ton of value in the lounge access anymore, as they're often on wait lists when I travel, but the Amex Lounge did come in handy during a long layover recently. Even without that, it's a valuable card for me just for the perks. I don't really have much use for it for daily spend.

The CSR still has value for B&R spend, but most of my activity goes toward the RH Gold 3% cash back.

As far as cancelling trips, I've never had an issue with Amex or Chase Travel.

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You're absolutely right - I'm just explaining that they aren't offering awesome deals to justify their high annual fees - they're making money on selling access and your data (just like Facebook, Google, or others).

The missing point I was trying to make is that your hurdle isn't "recovering the annual fee", it should be a comparison to a cash back card or a direct travel provider card. If you're spending $50k per year, a 2% cashback card gives you $1000, not counting sign-up bonuses. These cards offer maybe $500-1000 in cash value of points earned on that $50k (if you use their clunky "portals"), lounge access savings of $500-800 (?) per year, zero value for the coupons (to me, as you can often go direct to these providers for at least as good a deal), less the annual fee of $500-800. Sign-up bonuses can be valuable, if you're a card-churner. Your mileage may vary - - I'm just saying it's not a slam-dunk to make them pay off.

I use the card that gives me the best return for the spend, which is usually RH or CSR. I only use Amex for travel related spend as the Platinum has crappy points for the most part.

There are certainly some nebulous perks on these cards (Peloton, Oura Ring, Equinox, etc.) but I've found plenty of value in the $300-400 restaurant perks, travel, entertainment, Uber credits, etc.

You're correct that it's not a slam dunk for everyone, but I enjoy the challenge of extracting as much value as possible. I was ready to go down to one card when they both increased their fees, but decided to churn the CSR one more time by signing up my wife.

A good example was the recent $359 Whoop credit. The deal was designed to get members to buy a Whoop band for "free" but have to pay a yearly fee for the service. Reddit folks figured out quickly you could use the credit for apparel as well. Now would I have paid $360 for a bunch of jogging shorts and boxers? no...but getting them for nothing is a nice way to extract value. I would probably value that at $100 rather than $359, but it helps to chip away at that AF.

I bleed maroon said:

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Diggity said:

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your point about hotel/flight rates being worse in some situations is fair, but why would I care if the perks are "profit centers" for the companies?

As long as the value I'm getting from the perks exceeds the AF, it shouldn't matter. It's just a matter of tracking each year to make sure it's still providing value. When it stops, you cancel.

I don't personally put a ton of value in the lounge access anymore, as they're often on wait lists when I travel, but the Amex Lounge did come in handy during a long layover recently. Even without that, it's a valuable card for me just for the perks. I don't really have much use for it for daily spend.

The CSR still has value for B&R spend, but most of my activity goes toward the RH Gold 3% cash back.

As far as cancelling trips, I've never had an issue with Amex or Chase Travel.

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You're absolutely right - I'm just explaining that they aren't offering awesome deals to justify their high annual fees - they're making money on selling access and your data (just like Facebook, Google, or others).

The missing point I was trying to make is that your hurdle isn't "recovering the annual fee", it should be a comparison to a cash back card or a direct travel provider card. If you're spending $50k per year, a 2% cashback card gives you $1000, not counting sign-up bonuses. These cards offer maybe $500-1000 in cash value of points earned on that $50k (if you use their clunky "portals"), lounge access savings of $500-800 (?) per year, zero value for the coupons (to me, as you can often go direct to these providers for at least as good a deal), less the annual fee of $500-800. Sign-up bonuses can be valuable, if you're a card-churner. Your mileage may vary - - I'm just saying it's not a slam-dunk to make them pay off.

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Its why I switched from CSR to Capital One Venture. I would rather just get guaranteed 2x points that can be redeemed for cash or maybe travel rather than pay $800 for the right to use Chase's coupon book. I'm never staying at a hotel as fancy as "The Edit" hotels to get that $150 off coupon. The KLM lounge is ok at IAH for Priority Pass but every other airport I've flown I have to check in with an hour wait to get in to the lounge the pass gave me access to. The only perk I really miss is Doordash Dash Pass and I've already replaced that with Amazon Prime giving free membership to Grubhub's similar membership. I sat on the CSR for a few months before canceling and I found myself trying to spend more money to unlock the savings.