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Keep or sell a rental?

6,778 Views | 58 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by AgsMyDude
12thMan9
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AG
OP's true COC returns will be even bigger. If he can acquire an asset similar to what he currently owns w/$20000 cash out of pocket & netted $4K/yr in cash flow, that's 20% return. Raise your hand if you would take that. Seems most of us would, save for 1 on here.
Ronnie '88
NoahAg
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Thanks again for your input. I always appreciate help running numbers. A little more info:

3.25%, 30 year (refi'd years ago when we lived there)

Principal: $400
Interest: $270
Escrow: $720

Rent: $1,850
AgsMyDude
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AG
Why not just do a HELOC like I mentioned and avoid losing the rate on the first property?
NoahAg
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AgsMyDude said:

I don't see this mentioned yet but I would strongly consider a HELOC on the property.

Run the numbers on on pulling out enough to cover the down payment on a 2nd property.

Use proceeds cash flow from initial property and second property to pay down the HELOC (depending on the rate).

Once HELOC is paid you've got 2 cash flowing, appreciating assets and the first property may be pretty close to being paid off at that point.
For some reason I had thought you couldn't HELOC on a rental, but then learned you can. Any idea what rates are these days? Credit is excellent. And I have quite a bit of equity in our primary home and a 2nd rental if that makes a difference. Pulling $40-50K out I'm confident I can find a decent cash flowing rental near our 2nd one.

tia
cjsag94
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AG
Cash out however you can get on the most favorable terms you can get. I'm not in the mortgage business.. can you get HELOC on an investment property? Didn't many banks exit the HELOC space? And aren't HELOCs short-ish amortization?
12thMan9
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AG
No HELOC on investment property, yes on homestead.
Ronnie '88
MS08
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AG
Still think the push needs to be towards trimming the economic vacancy gap. There is vacancy and economic vacancy with the ladder being based on current rates versus market rates. It's a metric used in storage facility operation all the time. In the storage world, Mom and Pop operators don't pay attention to economic vacancy whilst the operator who does increases the value of the facility quickly by being focused on it.

Seems like OP can easily get to a minimum of $2100/month which is $250/month more or 13.5% increase.
South Platte
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My property has increased 133% over the 12 years I've rented. It's been vacant for 0 months. Cash flow is small, like $200/month after all deductions.

Rates are high, values are high, rental competition is high. You're now playing against these massive real estate investment companies that pay cash for everything. Unless you can pay cash, seems like getting another rental is risky.
zagman
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AG
Again, all well and good in a bull market. You falsely assume assets only rise in value because you likely haven't had to survive in a true recessionary environment.

So for your sake, I hope we don't enter a recession and I sure as hell hope we don't have a massive correction in real estate that looks to be in the horizon. Your little scenario would be blown to hell and you will crumble under the weight of your debt.

Good luck.
NoahAg
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Not sure what I am missing. I found several links that say you can get a HELOC on an investment property. That was news to me as well because I have been told otherwise before.

https://www.rocketmortgage.com/learn/heloc-on-investment-property
cjsag94
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AG
zagman said:

Again, all well and good in a bull market. You falsely assume assets only rise in value because you likely haven't had to survive in a true recessionary environment.

So for your sake, I hope we don't enter a recession and I sure as hell hope we don't have a massive correction in real estate that looks to be in the horizon. Your little scenario would be blown to hell and you will crumble under the weight of your debt.

Good luck.


Wow.. doomsday much? There is no evidence of a housing crash involving $300,000 homes in Houston suburbs, and even if it did, there's $4,000 of debt service, not $400,000. Is there risk, absolutely, then don't invest if you aren't comfortable with that... But I have zero agreement with your concerns, time will tell.

And the risk isn't that it crumbles under $4000 debt service. I have the assets to carry that if I literally find myself with 3 deadbeat tenants not paying a dime. If it's truly crumbling, I let the banks foreclose, and I had to the soup lines with the rest of you.

You act like this is a roulette wheel and when it stops you either win or lose.
AgsMyDude
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AG
Yup.

I've never done it personally but seen several discussions on bigger pockets about it...
zagman
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AG
Like I said, good luck. You obviously know what you're doing. I still don't agree with the advice you're giving in this market.
12thMan9
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AG
You should listen to people who have been doing, successfully, in up & down markets, for years.

No idea where you are, but look up Lifestyles Unlimited, or Total Wealth Academy. Both have seminars you can attend for free. You can get educated on how to use leverage by people who are doing it. Single family & multi family for Lifestyles, Total Wealth dips into commercial property/storage, mobile home parks.
Ronnie '88
zagman
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AG
12thMan9 said:

You should listen to people who have been doing, successfully, in up & down markets, for years.

No idea where you are, but look up Lifestyles Unlimited, or Total Wealth Academy. Both have seminars you can attend for free. You can get educated on how to use leverage by people who are doing it. Single family & multi family for Lifestyles, Total Wealth dips into commercial property/storage, mobile home parks.


Why exactly do you think I need to listen to these people?
Cyprian
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AG
zagman said:

12thMan9 said:

You should listen to people who have been doing, successfully, in up & down markets, for years.

No idea where you are, but look up Lifestyles Unlimited, or Total Wealth Academy. Both have seminars you can attend for free. You can get educated on how to use leverage by people who are doing it. Single family & multi family for Lifestyles, Total Wealth dips into commercial property/storage, mobile home parks.


Why exactly do you think I need to listen to these people?
Need or just a good idea to do your homework before a major investment? They are successful and therefore have successful methods, and there is no need to re-invent the wheel on how they advocate to invest in RE. I read/listened and attended some of their free seminars/talks they did (never did a membership), and between them and biggerpockets.com, I basically reverse engineered how to invest in rental/passive income with a high ROI.
12thMan9
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AG
zagman said:

12thMan9 said:

You should listen to people who have been doing, successfully, in up & down markets, for years.

No idea where you are, but look up Lifestyles Unlimited, or Total Wealth Academy. Both have seminars you can attend for free. You can get educated on how to use leverage by people who are doing it. Single family & multi family for Lifestyles, Total Wealth dips into commercial property/storage, mobile home parks.


Why exactly do you think I need to listen to these people?


To educate yourself.
Ronnie '88
zagman
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AG
12thMan9 said:

zagman said:

12thMan9 said:

You should listen to people who have been doing, successfully, in up & down markets, for years.

No idea where you are, but look up Lifestyles Unlimited, or Total Wealth Academy. Both have seminars you can attend for free. You can get educated on how to use leverage by people who are doing it. Single family & multi family for Lifestyles, Total Wealth dips into commercial property/storage, mobile home parks.


Why exactly do you think I need to listen to these people?


To educate yourself.


On how to lever up and take on more debt in the most punishing interest rate environment in decades for the sole purpose of pulling out equity that will be split between paying expensive debt on the current property and expensive debt on new properties priced at levels considered historically high given the current economic backdrop?

If that's what they are teaching, I'll stick with my 40 years of experience and commercial real estate knowledge. Thanks though.
BoDog
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AG
This is one of those rare TexAgs discussion where I actually think both arguments are correct. It is just a matter of perspective.

I have decided to part ways with mine in June. It was almost a coin flip but doubling my money in less than 6 years is too good to pass up.
zagman
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AG
BoDog said:

This is one of those rare TexAgs discussion where I actually think both arguments are correct. It is just a matter of perspective.

I have decided to part ways with mine in June. It was almost a coin flip but doubling my money in less than 6 years is too good to pass up.


Can't say you did wrong. If you can find another place to put your money immediately that gives you better returns, then great. You're glad to have the funds to do it. If not, then you have cash ready to deploy if the market corrects or rates drop. On the flip side, you could have paid money to secure new financing at a higher balance and a more costly rate. To pull out less cash than had you sold. You'd have infinitely more risk and less flexibility. I think you were wise. Wouldn't have faulted you for just staying in either.
cjsag94
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AG
I think the fundamental difference of opinion here, which surprises me with your 40 years of experience, is that Zagman views current interest rates as "punishing". I view the past 15 years as a gift of ridiculously beneficial rates and the current as the long term norm. Interesting to point out that you chastised me that history doesn't matter, yet you keep referring to the history.

It also appears Zagman firmly believes there is an impending real restate crash of epic proportions on the horizon. Anyone who shares that fear should certainly act accordingly.

I just find it very interesting that with 40 years of experience there's never been a bad time to invest (really in anything) as long as you buy quality investments. Structuring debt with callable balloon features is another story altogether, which no one has suggested. Maybe that's the answer, you are sweating commercial real estate and debt structures right now, which isn't what this thread is about. This thread was discussing residential real estate.
zagman
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AG
And whether to hang on or sell. And the advice I've been mainly arguing against is the user that told him to lever up.

Yes, this debt is fine compared to 20 years ago. But not if your current note is cheaper. (And in my opinion, not at these valuations. We have 500-600 basis point higher debt than 2 years ago and valuations have gone up. You don't lock in until valuations are reasonable) That's the whole point. And definitely not if rates are about to come back down. That's the whole second point. And absolutely not if values are going to reset in any meaningful way and you don't have cash available to buy because you've already put in investments at higher valuations with higher debt. That's the whole third point.

The only way todays rates make sense is if you believe rates will never be lower and prices will only continue to go up. Or you have reached a terminal calendar event like the end of an ballon cycle. And that's fine if you believe that. I've just been saying that your assuming a lot of risk given the current backdrop of our economy, the bubbles in every arena, the credit squeeze, the historically low savings rate, the commercial real estate debt duration disaster looming, etc.

You're also only looking at the trees if you think the last 40 years are going to look like the next 40. Zooming out to the forest says that we're in a period of incredibly high risk only matched by the 70's under Carter. And the US was in far better shape back then and still endured far worse than what we have even begun to endure. Yes, I believe a correction is coming. The only way it doesn't is if the FED drops rates soon. I also see the skyrocketing cost of insurance and taxes. In my opinion, your money is best as cash in reserve waiting for the buying opportunity of a lifetime. You only get 2-3 of these. And if you're tied up in 80% leverage 6%-7% notes, you're going to miss it.

That said, if you get the chance to refinance at 3-4% in the near to mid future, and you can cash out while keeping a minimum of 40% equity in the deal, I wouldn't argue against that. It's the high leverage and putting new cash in more high leverage situations that makes me uneasy. It works in bull markets with the dollar devaluing. We're not in a bull market currently.

Lastly, commercial real estate is facing a wall. That wall is loan durations coming to end and there are minimal options available. Without rates back down 200-300 basis points, minimum, and very soon, there's going to be a ton of valuation changes. Because the bottom line makes zero sense at current rates. And a valuation reset in commercial real estate leads to a banking crisis. And that will affect everything, even your SFR rental.

At current rates, you have to be able to solve to a minimum of 6% unlevered. If you can't do that, and you don't have a pathway through renovation or mark to market to get there and ultimately higher, then you're making a bad investment. And very very few investments can solve to a 6 right now.
AGFAMTX
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We increased our rentals depending on the location by an average of $85.00 per month. Have not done an increase in several years but it was time. In the explanation we were delicate about the wording. No one moved or gave notice to move. Its odd, we find a $50 or $100 freaks them out. When we did $85.00 it seems they realize we are trying to help them but keep up with the current expense, taxes, exposure. I agree with the post that is about you and your family and keep emotions out of it as much as possible.
AgsMyDude
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AG
I jumped one by $175 and got it leased with a referral from the previous tenants. Didn't even have to list.
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