is anyone gonna watch this? LIV teams

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watty
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2:12p, 2/15/23
AG
Now that LIV is on actual TV, I'll definitely watch. The reason I hadn't watched it before is that it was on youtube and not on TV. I have no idea how common that sentiment is, but I'm a golf fan who has nothing against LIV, and my whole deal was, put it on TV and I'll watch it. So I didn't see a single stroke last year, but I definitely will this year. Looking forward to it.

As for teams, I'm not into that. Golf is an individual sport in my eyes. I don't care about the Ryder Cup so I certainly don't care about a season-long or week to week team thing. But I'll care about the individual winners.
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aggiepaintrain
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6:23p, 2/15/23
AG
the problem with LIV is that very few of the American players are the least bit likeable

I will never watch, that's just me
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Nom de Plume
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In reply to aggiepaintrain • 7:12p, 2/15/23
AG
aggiepaintrain said:
the problem with LIV is that very few of the American players are the least bit likeable

I will never watch, that's just me

It's kinda made the PGAT better.
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Bunk Moreland
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In reply to aggiepaintrain • 7:34p, 2/15/23
aggiepaintrain said:
the problem with LIV is that very few of the American players are the least bit likeable

I will never watch, that's just me


Again, LIV took 5/10 biggest needle movers re: PIP from the PGAT.

You already were never going to watch even if JT and Spieth stuck their hands in each other's back pockets and frolicked down the fairway in LIV.

I hope both leagues do great. There will be new generations of heroes and villains but people discounting who LIV was able to sign in a year where every single entity was colluding against them are absolutely full of **** imo.

There's no more lethal major player in the last decade than Brooks. There's no better putter on earth than Cam. There's no better major champ with the WAG combo in golf than DJ. There's no bigger heel than Reed. There's no bigger nutjob who actually broke through to win a major than Bryson.

The PGAT is absolutely missing the juice in the short term. They're doing an amazing job of cheerleading and daydreaming about Max Homa being the next multiple major winner, but they're missing some of the needle that was taken from them.

The biggest golf story of this season was Reed trying to say hi to Rory on a tee box in the middle east and a controversial call of his where he did nothing wrong yet Rory got virtual media blackout for doing something shady in the same tournament.

The people feed off the drama. A rah rah PGAT will get real stale real quick. Remains to be seen if they can fill the void with a ton of the big personalities gone and how long it takes to replace them.

One thing is for certain... The PGAT has been benefitting from all their changes made due to the LIV influence. Time to see if LIV can actually grab meaningful attention in their first official season.
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Mateo84
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In reply to Bunk Moreland • 6:57a, 2/16/23
AG
Cam Smith was in peak form, and a few of the young guys like Niemann have big potential, but virtually every other big name guy was on the decline before switching to LIV.

Bryson might get his form back and remain a star, but I think Reed, Koepka, DJ, and Bryson were all on a downward trajectory. Obviously the same can be said about Phil, the old European guys (Sergio, Poulter, Westwood, Stenson, etc), and many others. Watch Koepka's episode of Full Swing and what his mindset was at that time of his switch.

I'm an avid golf fan, watching at least the highlights of every single round of every single PGAT event 4 days a week, and I have zero interest in the format or players for LIV. It's just not the same game, and the allure of chasing history is gone. Throw in the Saudi/humans rights aspect, and I just don't care to engage with the LIV product as a whole.

I agree with the poster above who said the PGAT now has a better product than they had before LIV. I'm glad I don't have to hear about Brooks/Bryson drama or people like Phil and Sergio constantly threatening to leave the PGAT. Good riddance.
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_lefraud_
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7:02a, 2/16/23
AG
Spare me the human rights angle when Tiger, Rory, Scottie and so many others proudly wear Nike from head to toe.
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Bunk Moreland
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In reply to Mateo84 • 7:19a, 2/16/23
Mateo84 said:
Cam Smith was in peak form, and a few of the young guys like Niemann have big potential, but virtually every other big name guy was on the decline before switching to LIV.

Bryson might get his form back and remain a star, but I think Reed, Koepka, DJ, and Bryson were all on a downward trajectory. Obviously the same can be said about Phil, the old European guys (Sergio, Poulter, Westwood, Stenson, etc), and many others. Watch Koepka's episode of Full Swing and what his mindset was at that time of his switch.

I'm an avid golf fan, watching at least the highlights of every single round of every single PGAT event 4 days a week, and I have zero interest in the format or players for LIV. It's just not the same game, and the allure of chasing history is gone. Throw in the Saudi/humans rights aspect, and I just don't care to engage with the LIV product as a whole.

I agree with the poster above who said the PGAT now has a better product than they had before LIV. I'm glad I don't have to hear about Brooks/Bryson drama or people like Phil and Sergio constantly threatening to leave the PGAT. Good riddance.

Reed just went toe to toe with Rory a month ago.

DJ was on a downward trajectory? He won the 2020 Masters. Phil won the 21 PGA with Brooks as runner up.

I swear, some of y'all should place the same 'trajectory' stances on a bunch of the favorite sons of the PGAT as you do on the LIV guys. If you were objective, everyone other than the last 4 major winners would be washed up has beens on the down slide.
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Mateo84
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In reply to Bunk Moreland • 8:10a, 2/16/23
AG
Bunk Moreland said:
Mateo84 said:
Cam Smith was in peak form, and a few of the young guys like Niemann have big potential, but virtually every other big name guy was on the decline before switching to LIV.

Bryson might get his form back and remain a star, but I think Reed, Koepka, DJ, and Bryson were all on a downward trajectory. Obviously the same can be said about Phil, the old European guys (Sergio, Poulter, Westwood, Stenson, etc), and many others. Watch Koepka's episode of Full Swing and what his mindset was at that time of his switch.

I'm an avid golf fan, watching at least the highlights of every single round of every single PGAT event 4 days a week, and I have zero interest in the format or players for LIV. It's just not the same game, and the allure of chasing history is gone. Throw in the Saudi/humans rights aspect, and I just don't care to engage with the LIV product as a whole.

I agree with the poster above who said the PGAT now has a better product than they had before LIV. I'm glad I don't have to hear about Brooks/Bryson drama or people like Phil and Sergio constantly threatening to leave the PGAT. Good riddance.

Reed just went toe to toe with Rory a month ago.

DJ was on a downward trajectory? He won the 2020 Masters. Phil won the 21 PGA with Brooks as runner up.

I swear, some of y'all should place the same 'trajectory' stances on a bunch of the favorite sons of the PGAT as you do on the LIV guys. If you were objective, everyone other than the last 4 major winners would be washed up has beens on the down slide.


Well it's now 2023 and DJ is 38. Do I think he is past his prime and on a downward trajectory? Yeah, absolutely.

Could he still win a major, yeah, he's very talented. Would he ever be number 1 in the world again? Not likely.

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Hamburger Dan
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8:13a, 2/16/23
Once the LIV broke, I've payed very little attention to them. Nothing political, nothing personal. No cuts, shortened format, guaranteed money - it's basically an exhibition. PGA has their money grabs from time to time as well. But, they're competing and growing the game. The number one ranked amateur golfer in the world was in our shop a couple of weeks ago, getting a little club work done. I casually ask him about the LIV, he said, he looked forward to competing against the best players in the world, and they were on the PGA tour. Pretty solid response.
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Mateo84
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8:19a, 2/16/23
AG
On LIV and Koepka's drop in the world rankings:

https://apple.news/AcG1refqCRE-kCxewXgHc6g
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Bunk Moreland
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In reply to Mateo84 • 8:24a, 2/16/23
Mateo84 said:
On LIV and Koepka's drop in the world rankings:

https://apple.news/AcG1refqCRE-kCxewXgHc6g

The world rankings are **** now. They mean absolutely nothing. Using them to formulate an argument against LIV players is worthless.

Again...fat Pat just showed up to Dubai or wherever the **** and went toe to toe with Rory. Cam won the open last year. We'll see how the majors shake out this year but I'm betting a lot of LIV guys will do fairly well.
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DannyDuberstein
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8:47a, 2/16/23
AG
Most of the names had already fallen. Last June was the last non-LIV impacted assessment, and that had guys like DJ slipping to 13, cheating Pat down to 38, Brooks at 20, Bryson at 28, Sergio at 59, etc. All top 5-10 at some point, if not #1, and all headed the wrong way. Cam was a good get from a rising talent perspective, although being a foreign player and a low key dude, probable more of a good international interest get.
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Bunk Moreland
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 8:56a, 2/16/23
DannyDuberstein said:
I think his point was they'd already fallen. Last June was the last non-LIV impacted assessment, and that had guys like DJ slipping to 13, cheating Pat down to 38, Brooks at 20, Bryson at 28, Sergio at 59, etc. All top 5-10 at some point, if not #1, and all headed the wrong way. Cam was a good get from a rising talent perspective, although being a foreign player and a low key dude, probable more of a good international interest get.

As a 35 year old American golf fan, Cam is way more interesting to me than Spieth, JT, Scottie, Cantlay, Morikawa and more. And that was before the move to LIV as well.
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JCA1
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9:12a, 2/16/23
AG
To me, Cam is easily the biggest get for LIV. Amazing, young talent who's best years are ahead of him and he appears to be a really good dude to boot. He's the only guy I'm truly going to miss. Most of the others I just miss rooting against (and there's something to be said for that too).

Also, are we all just going to re-hash all the same arguments we had for 90+ pages on the other thread here? Just trying to figure out what we're doing so I can polish up my cut-and-paste game if need be.
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Deluxe
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9:46a, 2/16/23
AG
It's interesting to look at the top players in the world right now who are still uncommitted to either LIV or TGL:

Scheffler
Cantlay
Spieth
Zalatoris
Hovland
Finau
Burns
Tom Kim
Cam Young
Sunjae Im
Matsuyama
Fleetwood

Of those guys, who's still on the table for LIV to poach?

I don't see any of the Americans on that list going except maybe Cam Young. Cantlay said he's open to it but he's always maintained he's going to play where he feels the best players are. That's still the PGA Tour.

Throwing an insane amount of money at Tom Kim/Sungjae is probably the best play for LIV. Tom is becoming a valuable chess piece in all this. I know the Dallas guys have taken him under their wing and I think it's likely he gets a TGL deal soon, but I wouldn't 100% rule out LIV.
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aggiebonzo
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In reply to Deluxe • 10:09a, 2/16/23
AG
I've listened to a couple Tom Kim interviews and I can guarantee you he's not going to LIV based on what he's said.
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Deluxe
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In reply to aggiebonzo • 10:23a, 2/16/23
AG
aggiebonzo said:
I've listened to a couple Tom Kim interviews and I can guarantee you he's not going to LIV based on what he's said.
I assumed that was the case but hadn't heard him say it explicitly. Thanks.
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AgLA06
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11:12a, 2/16/23
AG
I'm really surprised Finau has moved to LIV.
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Deluxe
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In reply to AgLA06 • 11:25a, 2/16/23
AG
AgLA06 said:
I'm really surprised Finau has moved to LIV.
I'm not surprised Finau hasn't moved to LIV
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Mateo84
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In reply to Bunk Moreland • 1:53p, 2/16/23
AG
Bunk Moreland said:
Mateo84 said:
On LIV and Koepka's drop in the world rankings:

https://apple.news/AcG1refqCRE-kCxewXgHc6g

The world rankings are **** now. They mean absolutely nothing. Using them to formulate an argument against LIV players is worthless.

Again...fat Pat just showed up to Dubai or wherever the **** and went toe to toe with Rory. Cam won the open last year. We'll see how the majors shake out this year but I'm betting a lot of LIV guys will do fairly well.


Why are the world ranking worthless? The LIV guys aren't playing 72 hole events. They are playing against small fields (which generally aren't very good even if you included their prior world ranking status), and they are playing without a cut. They aren't meeting the standards for similar competition around the world.

Should we also award world ranking points if Bryson beats Tom Brady in some version of The Match? What about if I beat my buddies in my Saturday morning 2 man best ball?

LIV might get a few people to watch … it seems like you are one of those. But they aren't getting the average new fan to watch, and if they can't get a golf fanatic like myself to watch, I just don't understand how they survive long-term.
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Bunk Moreland
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In reply to Mateo84 • 1:56p, 2/16/23
Mateo84 said:
Bunk Moreland said:
Mateo84 said:
On LIV and Koepka's drop in the world rankings:

https://apple.news/AcG1refqCRE-kCxewXgHc6g

The world rankings are **** now. They mean absolutely nothing. Using them to formulate an argument against LIV players is worthless.

Again...fat Pat just showed up to Dubai or wherever the **** and went toe to toe with Rory. Cam won the open last year. We'll see how the majors shake out this year but I'm betting a lot of LIV guys will do fairly well.


Why are the world ranking worthless? The LIV guys aren't playing 72 hole events. They are playing against small fields (which generally aren't very good even if you included their prior world ranking status), and they are playing without a cut. They aren't meeting the standards for similar competition around the world.

Should we also award world ranking points if Bryson beats Tom Brady in some version of The Match? What about if I beat my buddies in my Saturday morning 2 man best ball?

LIV might get a few people to watch … it seems like you are one of those. But they aren't getting the average new fan to watch, and if they can't get a golf fanatic like myself to watch, I just don't understand how they survive long-term.

As JCA said...i'm not going to rehash every talking point response on this thread that we've discussed for damn near a year on the other one. There's plenty of pages to read up on it or post new thoughts.
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AgLA06
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In reply to Mateo84 • 1:56p, 2/16/23
AG
Doesn't matter. We know a large percentage of the top 50 are no longer part of the system. That taints the data and devalues the system.
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Mateo84
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In reply to AgLA06 • 1:59p, 2/16/23
AG
That's a matter of opinion I guess. It doesn't devalue the system in my eyes at all.
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Bunk Moreland
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In reply to Mateo84 • 2:07p, 2/16/23
Mateo84 said:
That's a matter of opinion I guess. It doesn't devalue the system in my eyes at all.

LOL at this clown thinking JT Poston is better than DJ, Reed, Koepka etc.
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Mateo84
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In reply to Bunk Moreland • 2:17p, 2/16/23
AG
Bunk Moreland said:
Mateo84 said:
That's a matter of opinion I guess. It doesn't devalue the system in my eyes at all.

LOL at this clown thinking JT Poston is better than DJ, Reed, Koepka etc.

Is that what I said?

You just can't evaluate where those guys stand because they aren't playing on a level playing field. I'm fine with essentially removing them from the rankings (which is basically what happens with their slide down the list) because you can't fairly say where they belong.

I guess that makes me a "clown" … thanks for adding to the discussion in a productive manner
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Thisguy1
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1:48p, 2/17/23
That looked like a Nickelodeon commercial. It sure seems like they're trying to get a younger audience which I can respect. I can't remember where I saw it, but Bubba was talking about that aspect. I think he said the thing that made him feel good about his decision was hearing his son talk about the teams or something. I think the problem is golf is not that fun of a sport to watch to those who don't play it. It's too slow for a kid to watch and enjoy themselves IMO.
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Dimebag Darrell
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3:51p, 2/17/23
I like the consistent, nostalgic production style that the PGA uses. As opposed to the ore "edgy" style like you see with "the Match" type contests. I think LIV might be discounting just how many of us may not be super into the matches but keep the tournament on all day on the weekends in the background so we can casually follow. To me, watching golf is supposed to be relaxing and soothing for the most part. If the LIV can keep this and not get too "flashy", I may watch. But if it starts feeling like the XFL, I'm out. Similarly, I always preferred SEC on CBS over Fox or FS1 broadcasts...as the latter just seems like a phonier step down in production quality. Hard to explain.
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Bunk Moreland
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In reply to Dimebag Darrell • 3:57p, 2/17/23
Brittmoore Car Club said:
I like the consistent, nostalgic production style that the PGA uses. As opposed to the ore "edgy" style like you see with "the Match" type contests. I think LIV might be discounting just how many of us may not be super into the matches but keep the tournament on all day on the weekends in the background so we can casually follow. To me, watching golf is supposed to be relaxing and soothing for the most part. If the LIV can keep this and not get too "flashy", I may watch. But if it starts feeling like the XFL, I'm out. Similarly, I always preferred SEC on CBS over Fox or FS1 broadcasts...as the latter just seems like a phonier step down in production quality. Hard to explain.

I think ultimately they're trying to thread a needle that will be tough...attract traditional golf fans while also innovating and trying to present something new.

I heard a golf journalist on Jim Rome earlier say he thinks they need to use the CW deal to go completely ballistic and present an entirely new product/experience to the TV golf viewer. His opinion is if it's too similar to what people can get with the PGAT then it will make it even harder to establish yourself.

I'm not sure where I land on what the right strategy is. The LIV coverage I watched last year was pretty good and the camera angles and way they presented the golf was different enough to me and I really liked how they set camera's up more for you to feel like you're at the course vs the perfect angle for every incoming wedge to a green like the PGA usually does. It's why the Masters controlling their coverage also feels different every year.
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Dimebag Darrell
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In reply to Bunk Moreland • 3:58p, 2/17/23
Bunk Moreland said:
Brittmoore Car Club said:
I like the consistent, nostalgic production style that the PGA uses. As opposed to the ore "edgy" style like you see with "the Match" type contests. I think LIV might be discounting just how many of us may not be super into the matches but keep the tournament on all day on the weekends in the background so we can casually follow. To me, watching golf is supposed to be relaxing and soothing for the most part. If the LIV can keep this and not get too "flashy", I may watch. But if it starts feeling like the XFL, I'm out. Similarly, I always preferred SEC on CBS over Fox or FS1 broadcasts...as the latter just seems like a phonier step down in production quality. Hard to explain.

I think ultimately they're trying to thread a needle that will be tough...attract traditional golf fans while also innovating and trying to present something new.

I heard a golf journalist on Jim Rome earlier say he thinks they need to use the CW deal to go completely ballistic and present an entirely new product/experience to the TV golf viewer. His opinion is if it's too similar to what people can get with the PGAT then it will make it even harder to establish yourself.

I'm not sure where I land on what the right strategy is. The LIV coverage I watched last year was pretty good and the camera angles and way they presented the golf was different enough to me and I really liked how they set camera's up more for you to feel like you're at the course vs the perfect angle for every incoming wedge to a green like the PGA usually does. It's why the Masters controlling their coverage also feels different every year.
Yep, all good points.
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stallion6
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In reply to aggiebonzo • 9:39p, 2/17/23
AG
aggiebonzo said:
Crazy how far Phil has fallen… Oldest player to win a major at Kiawah to two years later to the meme of "PGA Superstore Phil"
I would but ok with his fall due to Liv Golf. $138 million ($102 million on course/$36 million off course). He was smart. His game at 52 was not going to keep him competitive much longer.

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DannyDuberstein
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9:50p, 2/17/23
AG
It was a smart move for guys like Phil at the end of the road. That said, he botched the execution and cost himself with sponsors off the course. The 6 month golf exile that came with running his mouth also seemed to facilitate his game going to complete **** more quickly. They probably also land a few more big names if he hadn't set off the premature landmine. He really ****ed things up
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98Ag99Grad
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10:18p, 2/17/23
AG
Agree with Danny above. I firmly believe many guys who had played in the Saudi tournament were poised to sign, then Phil does the dumbest interview ever and blows this thing up. The PGAT got their PR machine rolling and guys got cold feet.
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Bunk Moreland
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10:36p, 2/17/23
Phil ****ed up the momentum for sure. But this week's tournament is the 1 year anniversary where the PGAT brass and elite players thought they won, as DJ committed (kinda) to staying and then everyone else fell in line. LIV looked DOA after the genesis last year and within 3 months they flipped the script.
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DannyDuberstein
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12:16a, 2/18/23
AG
They spent $800 mill to ultimately have 40k people watching their grand finale big poobah team event. That script maybe should have stayed unflipped.
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Bunk Moreland
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 12:20a, 2/18/23
DannyDuberstein said:
They spent $800 mill, took major US and international golf stars away from the PGAT, hurt PGAT ratings, forced major change to the PGAT model, to initially have 40k people watching their grand finale big poobah team event.


FIFY. LIV could absolutely still end up a flop but your attempts to minimize the changes they've already forced + refusal to even consider a world where they may succeed is well documented.
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