I might come from the slums and a family history of fail but I'm a ****ing bad@ss!

sorry for the rant but I'm a little drunk and some officer thought he was better that me just because he came from money. I had to put him in his place today. For all y'all going into service with a commission, respect your NCO's. They have a career of knowledge that you don't get in ROTC. Remember that ROTC teaches doctrine that is never followed, and everything you learned in ROTC only applies to your briefings to the Comander.

I respected the NCOs that earned my respect and told the few that didn't (typically because they half-assed their jobs) that they should find another line of work. It had absolutely nothing to do with their rank. One of my best Marines was a lance cpl.
As far as what I knew... I knew a hell of a lot more - after only 6 months of TBS and 12 weeks of IOC - about commanding a platoon in the field than any of them did, including my platoon sergeant.
That was my experience, anyway.

My dad retired as an AF E-8, so I was raised as an NCO brat. He was still on active duty when I was commissioned as an AF 2Lt. He retired three years later - 26 years’ service, including WWII service.

I was proud of my dad - he was proud of me.

I retired as an AF O-5 after 21 years’ service.

As Trident so eloquently posted -

quote:

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I respected the NCOs that earned my respect and told the few that didn't (typically because they half-assed their jobs) that they should find another line of work.

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I can recall a few times when an NCO under my command tried to play the "you don't respect NCOs" card.

I always enjoyed coming back with the "I was raised as an NCO brat" card.

After that, we were able to have an adult conversation.


[This message has been edited by NormanAg (edited 4/20/2013 10:18p).]

Unfortunately there are **** NCO's. A good 1SG will weed out the bad PSG's and a solid PSG with good SL's will tighten up a bad SL as well as weak TL's but a PL that thinks he's God's gift is worse than a PL that won't make decisions. The ones that feel entitled, enlisted or commissioned are the worst. I know I ain't entitled to ****, I busted my ass for 12 years to get to where I'm at. And any snot nosed LT that thinks my 12 years and 56 month deployed are below his 4 years of ROTC... **** him!

1) You've mistaken this board for your Facebook account

2) If you think doctrine isn't applicable then I can probably guess your rank

3) The gall of an NCO "putting an officer in his place" is one of the reasons for the overall decline in our discipline. Do you let your Joes "put you in your place"?

4) There are lots of bad NCOs. I fired 3 1SGs and more SSGs/SFCs than I can remember in 3 years of command and most of them played the "respect the NCOs" bull****. People that deserve respect rarely, if ever, go around demanding it or playing it up as a class warfare game

5) Your post reeks of entitlement

6) I have a hard time trusting the professionalism and maturity of an NCO that thinks like this http://texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?topic_id=2295793&forum_id=63. Maybe, just maybe you might be out looking for fights that don't exist?

NCOs get the respect from the Officer corps that they earn. My good NCOs do great things and are rewarded by me. My bad ones are pulled aside for training and counseling. I've fired one before due to performance and have callout others who were in the wrong. I don't have time for petty Chief reindeer games when my Sailors' lives and work are on the line.

Wow, I had no idea I was supposed to respect enlisted people till I opened this thread. Thanks for the advice!

Ag Fan, I respected the NCOs who earned it. Hopefully, it went the other was as well.

You're right -- officers who felt entitled were turds. But so too, were NCOs such as yourself, who walked around with an obvious chip on their shoulder.

Get over yourself.

I'm a little befuddled by the "doctrine vs real world argument". Doctrine is really just an accumulative body of knowledge that is formalized for consumption. Without doctrine we would not carry forth lessons from past wars, the current ones or future ones.

Furthermore, the worst tactical desicions I saw had no basis in doctrine. Example; "drive up and down this road"....to which I would ask "is this a movement to contact? What is our objective?" Crickets.

quote:

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I'm a little befuddled by the "doctrine vs real world argument". Doctrine is really just an accumulative body of knowledge that is formalized for consumption. Without doctrine we would not carry forth lessons from past wars, the current ones or future ones.

Furthermore, the worst tactical desicions I saw had no basis in doctrine. Example; "drive up and down this road"....to which I would ask "is this a movement to contact? What is our objective?" Crickets.

---

I agree with the others that respect is a two way street. You give it and you get it. I rarely felt disrespected however, the worst disrespect that was ever shown me happened about 6 months before I retired.

My phone rings & I answer it with,
"Aircraft Maintenance Training Branch Msgt XXXXX speaking, How may I help you sir?"

Caller: in the most condesending tone, I am a Major, you are only a Sgt how do you think you can help me?

Me: You called me Maj. how may I help you?

Caller: I want to speak to the Branch Chief. Now do you think you can make that happen Sgt?

Me: after a couple seconds pause and still in the middle of a slow burn I regaining my composure and answered "I am the Branch Chief and now how may I help you? (at that time I was the only enlisted Branch Chief in the Air Force)

With this the caller hung up.

I knew the Major and this was not a joke.



[This message has been edited by Msgt USAF Ret (edited 4/21/2013 11:41p).]

Ag fan grunt,

Sorry, but with that attitude, if you were in my company when I was the CO, I would have introduced you to how Chapter 13 proceedings work.

Let's just award a Mulligan for PUI (posting under the influence). OP made no further defense of his rant more than two hours after the original post. The alcohol is out of his system and civility is restored.

Aggie Fan Grunt, as a young 2LT back in the dark ages, I know I made my share of mistakes. However my professional NCOs put me in my place by: 1) Following my orders as given (as long as they didn't jepordize my soldiers or the mission) and then 2) takeing me aside privately and explaining how I had just mde an ass out of myself and giving me the opportunity to correct it wtihout embarrassing me in front of my soldiers. That is how you "earn" respect along with being competent and professional in all of your duties.

Tango Mike and Diyala get it. Well said gentlemen.
If you are pursuing a commission beware of any NCO that thinks they can "put you in your place" or one that says "this is how it's done in the fleet." They are probably a liability, poorly trained, and/or just plain lazy.
As was said, good NCOs have tact and enough professionalism to pull aside officers to suggest good ideas for better training, tactics, etc.

Semper Fi

I'm not going to sit here and act like I never met an officer who belittled enlisted NCO's on occasion. However, I really don't think you came to the right place to air your grievance. What would you do if one of your junior enlisted guys disrespected an officer as you claim you did? Does that not apply to you as well? There is a right way to address these things. I guarantee you most CO's would quickly address any 2LT's slight on an undeserving enlisted member if brought to their attention in the right way. Maybe try that next time. Just sayin'

quote:

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I guarantee you most CO's would quickly address any 2LT's slight on an undeserving enlisted member if brought to their attention in the right way.

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Exactly - and I had to do that a few times to a certain 2Lt under my command. He was former enlisted.

I talked to him after incident #1, and then again, after incident #2. After incident #3, I asked him what the hell his problem was.

His answer? "That's how I was treated as an enlisted person." Needless to say, that was the last incident.

He PCS'd three months later. I was not at all sad to see him go. Don't get me wrong - I had the utmost respect for the officers I worked with that were former enlisted - except for this one bad apple.

NM

[This message has been edited by Say Chowdah (edited 4/22/2013 9:59p).]

Military 'respect' is a 2 way street. Good officers earn it by being competent at their job and fair/even handed to their soldiers/NCOs. Competent first, fair second. No one puts up long with a dumb(_,_) at any level. In 30 years I can only think of a couple of times where I was shown blatant disrespect by an enlisted man and that was in my 2LT days. 1st time was when I was only a couple of days in the Army and the CPT watching over me dealt with the miscreant before I really figured out what was going on. 2nd time I dealt with it on a physical level because I was out in the field and there were not any 'eyes' on me. Worked well. At least for me it did. Rest of the platoon saw, learned, and improved.

When you demonstrate to an NCO in subtle ways that you can do his job as well as he can, things go surprisingly well. You don't have to do it all the time, just every once in awhile at well chosen points/occasions. Let them know that the Lion can still roar if needed.

I had the pleasure of serving over the years with some fine folks on the enlisted side of the spectrum. Mutual respect is one of the tenets of good military leadership. The 2% that weren't gave me the opportunity to learn about/use UCMJ as needed, from Company grade 15's all the way up to Special BCDCMs. Not fun but part of the job thru the years. Discipline is one of the primary components of military teamwork. It is why they call them Orders. Not suggestions.

OP should sober up and check his gig line in the mirror. Try again.



[This message has been edited by WBBQ74 (edited 4/22/2013 10:21p).]

Didn't read all the crap above....son is enlisted...any fool knows u are only as strong as your weakest link

Huh?

Texker comes out swinging!

He really didn't say anything.

I have 23 years active duty, and there is a lot of BS on both sides of this argument. We enlisted have many ways of ridding ourselves of officers who are only in it to pay for their college tuition and the just plain old worthless ones. Both the officer and his PSG/1SG/CSM had better be working together as a team or their level of command will fail.

For those who have "fired" tons of PSGs and 1SGs, that individual probably needs to look at him/herself and figure out why they cant get along or work with their counterpart. As things change, why do they stay the same? And, in the Army, the authority to relieve an NCO at PSG or above lies with the CSM, not a company commander. I guess each branch is different.

quote:

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I have 23 years active duty, and there is a lot of BS on both sides of this argument. We enlisted have many ways of ridding ourselves of officers who are only in it to pay for their college tuition and the just plain old worthless ones. Both the officer and his PSG/1SG/CSM had better be working together as a team or their level of command will fail.

For those who have "fired" tons of PSGs and 1SGs, that individual probably needs to look at him/herself and figure out why they cant get along or work with their counterpart. As things change, why do they stay the same? And, in the Army, the authority to relieve an NCO at PSG or above lies with the CSM, not a company commander. I guess each branch is different.

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Interesting how you start your post with, "... there is a lot of BS on both sides of this argument."

And the rest of your comments talk about worthless officers paying off tuition as well as advising the officer who fired an enlisted to, "... figure out why they can't get along or work with their counterpart."

You're right. There is BS in this argument.

yep, there is a lot of BS. A moron on one side talking out of his ass about how he treats officers, and officers bragging about how they "fire" tons of NCOs. In the Army, PSG and above are relieved by the CSM, not the company or battalion commander. So, that is a load of BS. And if a commander, at any level, is going through NCOs left and right, as the one poster above crows about, I would say the problem just might lie with him. Again, if things are changing (NCOs leaving), why are things staying the same (same commander, same problems). What is your experience with this type of matter, if you dont mind me asking?

EDIT: yes, there are officers who just tread water until they have paid back their service obligation, or do you deny this? and, some are just worthless, just like some enlisted are.

[This message has been edited by clarythedrill (edited 4/24/2013 1:36p).]

There are tons of bad officers. The point of the OP, however, was to assert that all NCOs are awesome and NO officers are good. Both can be bad. He further asserted that all 1SGs are terrific and will rein in bad junior NCOs. This is patently false.

No CSM commanded my company, nor did one command the battalion

And I wasn't the one sleeping with junior enlisted Soldiers or lying on patrol reports (relieved 1SGs)


[This message has been edited by Tango Mike (edited 4/24/2013 7:21p).]

clarythedrill attitude = OP attitude. Both suck. Nuff said.

[This message has been edited by NormanAg (edited 4/24/2013 7:36p).]

I rarely deal directly with RLOs anymore and for the most part my warrants are respectful and provide good leadership. As an 11B I did find that most 2LTs had no business running a platoon and it seemed by the time they figured it out they were being swapped out. Most of them understood their success depended on the PSG and SLs just as most of the NCOs knew that for the platoon to succeed the PL could not be perceived as an idiot. My only beef with leadership and this goes for both enlisted and officer is the disconnect that forms for many seniors about how their macro decisions do or do not translate at the micro level. Frankly I wish we saw more leaders in both enlisted and officer fired for sub-standard performance. There is plenty of fat on both sides of the fence to cut.

Internet enlisted guys .....

internet officers

everyone realizes that this forum is dominated by ex officers, but it seems most turn a blind eye to what is a truth to a certain extent, just because they feel slighted because they once or currently are an officer.

normanag, you know nothing about me, and I have said nothing in this thread that would be considered insulting unless you have paper thin skin. there are good and bad apples on both sides of the fence....do you disagree? right now my program is in the process of disenrolling 12 MSIVs, because they are displaying the attitude of someone who just wanted a free education, not be an Army leader. Dont say these types dont exist, they do, across all spectrums.

I'm starting to wonder if this an Army 2ndLt and NCO issue. While I am well aware that there are poor USMC officers, like Trident said, they have far more good training than than any enlisted man. That, combined with good NCO experience usually makes for great platoon relationships.
What does the Army do or not do for their 2ndLts?

From my enlisted perspective, I only had two officers I considered bad ones. One was a 2nd Lt. who was just a little too aloof and not situationaly aware. (During a training exercise he is credited for taking out a whole squad by slipping on the ramp of a CH-46. He was first out, when he hit the deck it caused a pile up. The ump ruled the entire group KIA due to taking too long to get out of the helo.)

The other had been on detached duty so long that he just could not get back in the game.

For the most part my officers were excellent, including one LT who was a former football player at Tennessee (would have followed that guy to hell) and my Co CO who will be pinning on his first star later this year.

I had some good NCOs that were excellent as well and some that should have never had a third chevron pinned on.

Point it. There are good Os and good NCOs but there are some that have no reason to be kept in the ranks.

[This message has been edited by Aggies Revenge (edited 4/25/2013 9:40a).]