Agree on non combat arms army officers. I had some bad experiences with Chem officers, Ada, etc that were tasked with running convoys.

Combat arms in the army(ill lump combat engineers in this group as they are generally freaking studs) is much different than the rest of the army in terms of standards and professionalism.

Nick, what MOS (or branches) does the Army consider "combat arms?"
Any soldier-Where in the Army officer training pipeline do new Lts get training and opportunities on platoon and platoon(+) leadership? BOLC? From my understanding, Ranger school is a kick in the nuts, but it is mostly fire team and squad level training? Is that accurate? Do only infantry officers do Ranger school? Does every branch have their own BOLC?
Sorry for all the questions, I just want to learn. Army org at every level has always confused me. I went to Cav Leaders Course (great course) and trying to learn y'all's task org was the hardest part. Even Army officers weren't always sure...haha.

I can't speak to BOLC, as that was after my time. When I commissioned in 2003 the only "infantry" training my non-combat arms counterparts received was at OCS or through their commissioning source.

In terms of what the Army classifies as Combat Arms, there are three specialties: Infantry, Armor(which includes Cavalry and Scouts), and Field Artillery. Engineers(including combat engineers) are not classified as combat arms, which is ridiculous. That said, I think Combat Engineers are some of the best trained Soldiers in the Army.

what schools/training are MANDATORY for an army infantry 2ndLt before the first day he actually takes command of a platoon?

BOLC and infantry officers basic course.

Most will also attend airborne or air assault and ranger, with the exception of those on the way to units prepping for deployment. Many commanders value pre deployment training more than a ranger tab.

after a brief look through wiki, let me see if i understand this correctly (generally speaking):

BOLC A - OCS, West Point, etc
BOLC B - MOS school (would include infantry officers basic course)?

ranger, airborne, etc would be follow on schools after BOLC B?

Disclaimer: I'm non-prior service National Guard, with 0 active duty experience (other than training environments) and no deployments, so my perceptions reflect this, and aren't going to be all that typical for an Army officer.

Each branch has it's own BOLC-B course. The way the Army currently has it's Officer training laid out (this seems to change quite frequently) is BOLC-A (commissioning source: ROTC, OCS, USMA, etc) followed by a branch-specific BOLC-B. Each non-Infantry BOLC-B has a few weeks of common core classes to teach some very basics. In my FABOLC class (graduated last April), we had 3 weeks prior to the start of the FA-centered courses where we did in-processing, APFT, marksmanship, and death by Powerpoint on various (mostly non-tactical related) subjects. The other 15.5 weeks were mostly FA classes, with occasional CAD (combined arms) classes to teach us the "big picture" and some basic tactics. OCS and BCT are really the only places I've learned basic soldier skills.

guess i do care after all

Mameluke, that's essentially correct.

As a non-infanty officer, I can't speak 100% correctly on their training, but I am in an infantry battalion as a fire support officer, so I interact with infantry officers on a regular basis.

From my understanding, on the active side, infantry officers almost always go right from IBOLC into Ranger School. If there's a gap big enough in the training, they could do AB/AA between. That's from talking with my BN XO as well as some OCS classmates who just got back from IBOLC (NG officers don't always get to do Ranger School). I'm sure there are active duty infantry officers on here that can give you a better, more accurate answer.

For the FA guys, if they're selected for Ranger School (my class had 15 or so slots, I think), the go from BOLC to pre-Ranger at Fort Benning, then into Ranger School.

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I'm sure that an army infantry lieutenant who has been through the training pipeline and gone to airborne, ranger school and all that is highly capable and is comparable to an IOC complete Marine 2ndLt.

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My admittedly limited OpFor experiences vs. Army units led me to the same general conclusion. That being said, my infantry battalion (1/5) whipped the hell out of an airborne unit many years ago in Panama while we were training with them.

Only thing I have to add is that until recently BOLC was a 3 phase process (when I was involved). Phase II was removed and it became BOLC-A and BOLC-B. BOLC B (formally BOLC III) became 3 weeks longer. Almost all combat training for non-combat Officers is provided from their commissioning source/BOLC-A.

One of the things that is hard to make Marines understand about the Army is we provide all our own support services. We will also commission almost 3 times as many officers. The Marines have the advantage to make initial training a little bit harder across the board because they can be a little more selective. The every man a rifleman mantra is what I would love the Army to strive to be. However, the reality of the situation is some of the career fields are so specialized almost all their time is taken becoming efficient at that craft. Other than staying in good physical condition (in theory) and staying proficient enough with a rifle to qualify is about all the combat training they have time to practice (not saying that is right it's just the way it is for the Army). That doesn't mean the Army puts out across the board inferior Officers. Just because a minimum is set doesn't mean that is all the is expected. It is an arbitrary number that somebody up high decided would allow enough people to pass the course to meet needs.

I also want to add what I mentioned about non-Combat jobs having inferior tactical training doesn't apply to all non-combat jobs in the Army. Some are labeled as that and receive quite a bit of tactical training (Medics, Engineers, MP's, Truck Drivers, etc etc). This more applies to jobs like the Direct Commission jobs I mentioned yesterday. Hospital, Administration, some Aviation, Brigade and Division level jobs (some Army jobs at entry level never work on the Battalion level where the greatest threat to support people exist) are your most likely people to receive minimal combat training.

In the future if you get attached to a support Army unit it is best to just honestly ask what their capabilities are. Most will be honest about it. If they have little combat training it is probably best to treat them like something you have to protect instead of expecting them to hold their own. While their bravery and will to fight might be great. They just might not have the training to fight as a team and make good tactical decisions. Not their fault though and more the fault of whoever placed them in a situation they aren't prepared for. Most of the little combat training they receive after initial entry training will revolve around defending a FOB against being overrun.

I feel dirty talking about other Soldiers in what could be perceived as a negative light but it gets a little old when some Army support unit gets attached to the Marines and they assume they are getting tactical peers. Then they jump to the conclusion that the Army puts out substandard fighters because of this experience. Would just like to attempt to make you guys understand the unfortunate differences between Soldiers that have to be dealt with in the Army.

Good post Mission. Understood.

Velveta is spot on.

Some aviation? You had to put us next to the hospital/admin guys? Really?

I have no idea how Blackhawk pilots put their pants on in the morning with brass balls as big as they must have.

Happy now?

You guys sure are arguing a lot about who puts out the second best LTs behind the Air Force!

You guy's forget how awesome Naval Officers are. We haven't had the need to come on here and chest thump.

Rev,

That is because you guys were too busy with your 48 hour World of Warcraft marathon.

OK, my feelings aren't hurt so much...as for the Naval Officer things...I once checked into a Navy BOQ. While I waited for my room, I was invited to the bar down the road, conveniently located across the hangar.

I watched as these young pilots all shared a beer after flying all day. I was mad as hell and have been trying to figure out how to get a bar across my hangars ever since.

Anyway, sorry to derail this thread, but a dead horse is a dead horse.

Key lesson in any branch of military service:

No horse is too dead to beat.

Fly Army 97 should have been at Fort Hood in the summer of 1975 on a rainy day. All the Aviators were naturally 'grounded' due to weather so the 'Pizza & Sudz' officer club annex across the street from III Corps HQ was packed at lunchtime. Was an 'interesting' venue in it's day until the Corps Commander's wife made the bad decision to order a pizza and come pick it up in person. She was not impressed with the 'exotic dancers' and what they were doing with beer bottles, etc. It was closed down shortly thereafter.

Wish I could comply with Rule #1 but that would get me in jail today. Trust me, real story. There are lots of off duty stories in today's soldiers' Dad's army that they would not grasp at all with their current PC atmospheric constraints. Really.



[This message has been edited by WBBQ74 (edited 4/27/2013 8:31a).]

Frustrating PC atmosphere....something all of us can agree on, regardless of branch.

Mameluke, now as the US withdraws from Afghanistan, maybe a movement from inside the ranks should surface to recruit higher mental ability soldiers, then develop them into the cadre you'd like to see. I guarantee there are a plethora of NCOs that'd back that.

The Army is to blame for much of the enlisted self-inflated ego. The NCO creed starts "No one is more professional than I" for crying out loud. With that kind of mentality, it's no surprise many NCOs carry the false notion that they can do an officer's job and deserve O pay.

Oh Ag of NV, WE CAN!!! NCOs are the doers, the movers and shakers. There is no defense for any rank to behave unprofessionally, but officers are not entitled to be patricians.

Oh Ag of NV, WE CAN!!! NCOs are the doers, the movers and shakers. There is no defense for any rank to behave unprofessionally, but officers are not entitled to be patricians.

What does that even mean?

terata is drunk.

I just wanted to be part of this thread... it makes me laugh.









We keep you alive to serve this ship. Row well, and live!

Diyala, it means if any officer is condescending to an enlisted, or NCO rank, then any form of payback is acceptable. Unprofessionalism, martinet, sycophant,or arrogant behavior, in any rank, is punishable with dimension lumber counseling, in my HO.

You lost me again...

terata is still drunk.

LOL @ hypocrisy

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There is no defense for any rank to behave unprofessionally

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quote:

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if any officer is condescending to an enlisted, or NCO rank, then any form of payback is acceptable

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terata = jickyjack?