If cadet obesity is an obvious minor policy concern are there strict adherances to weight/height standards throughout the uniformed military services of the United States of America ?

bop knows (as a fact) the U.S. Navy Submarine Service enforces a very strict height/weight standard.

(Perhaps it's only D&C cadets being allowed wide latitudes? Does anyone conduct cadet weight/height measurement on a regular basis at Texas A&M ?)

The Guard has not been policed in a long time. However, while they are not kicking people out for being fatties (at least in my unit,) they are at least barring them from reenlistment. One guy lost his full time job as a tech because he was kicked out (have to be in the Guard in order to be a tech.)

Tried to strap in some fat bang bangs into my aircraft a few weeks ago during an insertion exercise. 95-1 says they have to be fully strapped in all the way around to fly. Put a boot in ones chest and shoved back so my other crew chief could get the belt around his shoulders and gut. It was ridiculous.

Can't speak for any other branch or ROTC program.

In bop's day, most regular Mess Hall cooks were considerably over-weight.

Wonder if there's a standard w/h check for FTAB members ?

(Few years ago t-sip band went to long dress-coats to help camouflage belt-line blubber overhangs.)

The sub force follows the same standard as the rest of the navy.

A lot of the overweight Soldiers are due to the Army needing every warm body available during the surge, and not letting fat boys be chaptered for being overweight or failed PT tests. Then, once they claim a physical or mental ailment, they really dont give a crap because they know its almost impossible to get rid of a fat boy while they are in the medical process, so they let themselves go. Ever walk past a WTB and see masses of overweight Soldiers? What company grade commander is going to ruin his or her career by trying to chapter someone in the WTB for being overweight? Can you imagine the firestorm if one tried that? Having a mental or physical ailment doesn't mean you can cram everything within arms reach into your mouth.

As for the Guard and Reserves, they have a mission to meet also. If they held themselves to the standard, VERY VERY few would continue to serve. That goes for the fraternization policy also. Good luck holding them to that, when your Guard subordinate is your civilian boss, and that good looking E-4 is the same age as most single Majors. Who do you expect a single 32 year old SPC to date, the horny assed 18 year olds, or someone closer to her age and maturity?

What would happen if we cut the Guard and Reserve completely and upped the active Army to about 22 full four brigade divisions? Would we be better off? Would that save money in the long run? I can see a lot of benefits.....some drawbacks too.

[This message has been edited by clarythedrill (edited 5/17/2014 3:45p).]

[This message has been edited by clarythedrill (edited 5/17/2014 3:53p).]

Unlike when I was in the Corps, the Corps has Height/Weight and PT standards for all cadets today. And we are strictly enforcing those policies. Many cadets have not been allowed to return to the Corps because they failed to meet Ht/Wt or PT standards.

Our Ht/Wt and PT standards mirror those of the military, so we have a very good reference point to use. While no system is perfect (I served for 31 years, and still saw soldiers, NCOs, and officers that I thought looked "heavy" despite our Ht/Wt and PT standards), its a good system that is fairly enforced by Corps leadership, our ROTC programs, and our Cadet Training Officers (CTOs).

Just for what its worth, Retired Marine General Mattis attended a review in his honor this year while he was here as a guest speaker for SCONA, and he commented to me that he didn't see a lot of fat cadets in the ranks as they marched by. He was very complimentary of the way our cadets looked, and I had to say that I agreed with him. I felt the same way at Final Review - I saw very few "heavy" cadets marching by that day - proof to me that our Ht/Wt and PT programs are having a positive effect.

We aren't perfect, and we still have a lot of work to do, but we're making good progress throughout the Corps, and I am pleased with how we are maintaining the standards and making a big difference in many of these young peoples' lives - many of whom have never done PT their entire lives.

Hope this answers your question concerning Ht/Wt standards for the Corps. We have them, they are enforced, and they are having a positive impact across the Corps.

Thanks for your support of our Corps! Gig 'em!

79...
That Sir, is about one of the most professional responses to a serious concern of mine that I have ever seen or received.
Thank you & Gig'em !

P.S. Make sure those scales are periodically and properly calibrated.

It is a reflection of our larger society as a whole in my opinion. My soldiers today from the xbox generation are for the most part unathletic, easily "broken" (constantly on profile), and heavier. That seems to be the norm. A few years ago the army was taking anyone with a pulse, now with the drawdown that is no longer the case. Hopefully we can be more selective in choosing who we let in. That is a start. The army is also kicking people out at a higher rate these days for ABCP violations (again, the drawdown). That doesn't change the fact however that the soldiers coming in still can't do pt for the most part. Sad really.

With present and future remote controlled battlefields perhaps individual ht/wt requirements are not that important and are now an anomaly of reality.

Wonder if this uniquely American and only applicable to the high-tech U.S. military ?

[This message has been edited by bebopag1 (edited 5/18/2014 10:38a).]

As a current army officer, I can assure you we're desperately trying to clean up our over weight issues. Unfortunately, soldiers still find loopholes that make it extremely difficult to chapter them out. It's working, but very slow and tedious.

SpiDer09, we face the same problem with some current cadets.

The old Quack Shack on campus issues profile letters for a cold, and some cadets choose to abuse this system.

However, there should not be a profile-based system for H/W. If you can't run, bike. If you can't bike, swim. If you can't swim, do long-distance walking.

If you can't do anything, take some time to heal up, but watch your caloric intake. Becoming overweight is no excuse.

(Notice 'becoming', and not 'being'. We don't choose the weight our cadets come in at, only where we take them.)

Glad to hear the Commandant's response. I just attended New Market Day at VMI (and the 150th anniversary of the battle where my great grandfather VMI cadet fought with the Corps). I was VERY impressed with VMI and did not see a single overweight cadet. Their uniforms are not conducive to fatties so it would be more than obvious.
On an aside, I talked to a Colonel and a couple of Alums who liked to point out that several VMI grads helped start A&M. I did not know that. Great mutual respect for both schools.

For the first time in many years I attended the Battle of Flowers parade with a new neighbor, a 1985 graduate of West Point.

As usual the Aggie Band looked great, however I did see a lot of fatties in the junior and senior ranks. None were military contract Cadets. My new neighbor also mentioned that a few of the band members need to start pushing away from the table.

There is a lot of work to do in the band to catch up with the rest of the Corps. Sorry to disagree with the Commandant but you got to call it the way you see it.

"Never forget who we are or where we come from, never forget the Aggie Code of Honor and never forget Duty, Honor, Country." President Gates

No problem with disagreement. Exactly what these forums are for - open discussion. Like I said before, we still have work to do, and are working hard to ensure standards are enforced across the entire Corps.

Just FYI, some members of the Band didn't make Ht/Wt standards by the end of the semester, and were not allowed to march Final Review. Some in the Band and across the Corps won't be back next year because they failed to make Ht/Wt standards this semester.

But to be fair, there were many "heavy" cadets back in my day, and I would suspect going back for decades, too. We had NO Ht/Wt and PT standards for cadets back then, and we had plenty of cadets across the Corps back then who spent more time in Duncan than they did in the gym or on the track. At least we have standards that all cadets must meet today - something that would have been problematic for many cadets back in my day.

Again, its a work in progress, and we will continue to set and enforce standards for all of our cadets. Its not perfect - just like its not perfect in the military either. But we will continue to tighten standards and enforce them for all cadets in the Corps.

BTW - we have a great relationship with all of the Senior Military Colleges, including VMI. Great respect for their school and their staff. I served with many VMI grads during my 31 years in the Army. A great school with a great military heritage.

Thanks again for all your support of our Corps! Gig 'em!

[This message has been edited by Commandant79 (edited 5/20/2014 9:02a).]

In my current job I've had the opportunity to visit all of the SMCs and many of the other ROTC programs, and from my viewpoint the A&M Corps isn't any worse than any other. There are heavies at VMI, and the Citadel, and North Georgia, etc, just as there are among the freshmen and sophomores at the other ROTC programs. I think we look more harshly at our fatties because they're ours and we want to improve our own standards, not because there are more of them.

And it's extremely hard to chapter anyone out of the active Army for being overweight. Some of the best administrative commander/1SG teams I've seen have only been able to chapter 1 in a 2-year command gig. I chaptered 30-something people out of the Army, and I can't remember getting more than 1 for being overweight. I usually got the fat ones by barring them from re-enlistment or waiting until they inevitably failed the APFT.

[This message has been edited by Tango Mike (edited 5/19/2014 11:18a).]

From a psychological-war point of view, don't you think enlarged photos of blubber over-hanging on belt-line cadets would help the case aganist...obesity in an A&M cadet uniform ?

Of course, block out cadet facial or name tag identities.

As far as the FTAB, (Zips or not) put over-weight cadets in middle ranks & file. Keep 'em far away from the perimeter.

[This message has been edited by bebopag1 (edited 5/19/2014 12:36p).]

From an A&M cadet standpoint and succintly put...poor leadership examples in self-dicipline.

It would be safe to say that the overweight Soldier issue will get better with the downsizing of the Army in the next few years – meaning that the competition to stay in will be a lot tougher. Not go away, but get better. Having been in the Guard for past 28 years, I’ve seen my share of overweight Soldiers – EM, NCO and Officer alike. When I got in my first unit in 1988, not one of the E7s, nor Top nor the Cdr would even dare to run – they’d have a cardiac. The timing of this topic is scary – I had my HHC 1SG come to me this past weekend at drill and ask why the Company Cdr was getting ready to prepare discharge papers for one of the PSGs while several of the staff captains that hadn’t passed the APFT in a few years weren’t having anything done to them. Suffice to say – the good CPT is working up some new paperwork. As far as the Corps of Cadets, I know from personal experience that ht/wt and APFT are being used and enforced. I know of a cadet in my outfit that got smart about what’s in the Standard, lost some weight and continues to monitor his weight. He’s passed both, and he’s got a healthier eating regime. Passing APFT and ht/wt back in the fall of 1982? Not even a consideration unless you were contract. As a fish, I knew that the outfit runs were going to be short if the CO fell out for them. If the 1SG was leading them – we were in for a run to the swine center and back. ‘The long way Sir……’ was our fish response……

quote:

---

The Guard has not been policed in a long time. However, while they are not kicking people out for being fatties (at least in my unit,) they are at least barring them from reenlistment. One guy lost his full time job as a tech because he was kicked out (have to be in the Guard in order to be a tech.)

Tried to strap in some fat bang bangs into my aircraft a few weeks ago during an insertion exercise. 95-1 says they have to be fully strapped in all the way around to fly. Put a boot in ones chest and shoved back so my other crew chief could get the belt around his shoulders and gut. It was ridiculous.

Can't speak for any other branch or ROTC program.

---

we just got a new 1st Sgt and I'm hoping that he enforces the standards more than our past one. He himself is in a lot better shape than our old one and seems a lot more hardnosed from the short briefings I received

quote:

---

I've known several Air Force and Navy personnel, both officer and enlisted, that were well beyond simply overweight.

---

In the Navy, someone has to fail 3 BCAs in a 4 year period before they are kicked out. If someone knows they are getting out, they could slack off the last 18 months and get as big as they want with no repercussions.

I had four commands.

It was easier to boot some fatty or some PT fail than someone who popped positive for weed.

quote:

---

It would be safe to say that the overweight Soldier issue will get better with the downsizing of the Army in the next few years – meaning that the competition to stay in will be a lot tougher. Not go away, but get better. Having been in the Guard for past 28 years, I’ve seen my share of overweight Soldiers – EM, NCO and Officer alike. When I got in my first unit in 1988, not one of the E7s, nor Top nor the Cdr would even dare to run – they’d have a cardiac. The timing of this topic is scary – I had my HHC 1SG come to me this past weekend at drill and ask why the Company Cdr was getting ready to prepare discharge papers for one of the PSGs while several of the staff captains that hadn’t passed the APFT in a few years weren’t having anything done to them. Suffice to say – the good CPT is working up some new paperwork.

---

Maybe I'm confused, but Company Commanders don't do paper work on staff officers. That's up to the XO. If you have an overweight NCO at the company level it's the 1SG who should be correcting it not the CO in the first place. If the 1SG has an issue with the way Ht/Wt standards are being implemented across the battalion he should raise that issue with the CSM.

Did I misunderstand something?

The HHC commander is the staff officers' commander. While the BC is generally responsible for the field grades, the XO is not a commander and therefore has no command authority to separate anyone. The CSM doesn't have any command authority, either, so Im not sure why he'd be involved in that.

Just my two cents...The only thing the XO should be doing is backing up the HHC CDR when he flags the staff officer. And then, counseling appropriately WRT the staff officer's overall performance that the XO will ultimately rate in the staff officer's OER.

A BDE XO has a extra duty to back the HHC CDR since almost all the primaries outrank the Co Commander...but then again, that's part of the reason the BDE HHC CDR should be someone who can handle themselves.

I guess this thread went on a tangent that I wasn't expecting it to - my point wasn't about the relationship or what the FMs say about who has responsibility for kicking out a fat, overweight, 'Not Passing the APFT' staff officer.

My main point was that I believe the overweight Soldier issue would be getting better in the future - and I tried to emphasize or illustrate that with a real-life example that I had experienced a few days prior. Guess I didn't do such a good job.

Oh - the other thing was that staff Officers are always in the 'fishbowl' - viewed by subordinate Officers, NCOs and Enlisted alike; and my 1SG was painfully aware of it.

Thanks for the input CT 97, Fly Army 97 (what is it with the Class of '97?) and TM.

Maybe "Project 100,000" has not been removed from the books.

quote:

---

Just FYI, some members of the Band didn't make Ht/Wt standards by the end of the semester, and were not allowed to march Final Review.

---

Kind of explains why Gen Mattis didn't see a lot of fatties...all the fatties weren't allowed to march.

I understand Tango Mike, I think FlyArmy got a little closer to what I meant. The XO writes the staff officers OER's. He's their boss and handling their wieght issues should be taken care of at his level. At least that's how I saw it in my experience. You are correct that it's the HHC Co who initiates the paperwork.

As for the 1SG addressing the issue with the CSM, that's his NCO chain and the CSM can walk into the BN Co's office and close the door and ask what's up with the NCO's and Officers not being held to the same standard. Should it happen at the HHC Co's level? Yes, I guess I have not seen something like this handled that way.

When I was an HHC commander I had all company grade officers report with their sections for APFTs, Ht/Wt, etc. The XO and S3 don't have authority to do any of that, per 600-20. They write the OERs, but that doesn't give them command authority. The staff sections are HHC platoons, so the CSM still wouldn't be involved in staff vs. med/scout/mortar platoon admin.

If the XO/S3 are doing admin on staff officers, what use is an HHC commander?

To clarify for prepyag, GEN Mattis saw the Corps march-in in FEB, during SCONA. That was LONG before Final Review in May. No "fatties" were excused for that review at all.

Believe what you want, but what GEN Mattis and I saw in Feb was a visible sign that HT/WT and PT standards in the Corps are working. As I said before, we're not perfect, just like the services aren't perfect, but we've made a lot of progress over the last few years, and continue to do so today.

My husband's reserve unit left for deployment last September with a very overweight company commander. By January he was in the process of being chaptered out by the active component overseas. It's happening more and more. The brigade csm basically told them to not even bother showing up for next drill if they fail apft a second time. Force reduction is here.

My son got hung up @ MEPS for underweight. Why that suddenly became an issue on reporting day I don't know. He processed thru to boot and advanced training and is now on a sub.