Other than DOD budget cuts, what's really behind cashiering Captains and Majors out of the US military services ?

Gotta afford freebies for illegals somehow, so get rid of the productive junior officers who help protect all of us.

Yep!

1) The Army has been over-strength captains and majors for years

2) The growth in the Army's end strength for GWOT was not tied to increased combat effectiveness. A lot of the increase was limited to headquarters. There are literally captains, majors, etc whose sole occupation is to update a single powerpoint slide each week.

3) The Army is trying to age the force to better manage talent instead of managing year groups. Lock-step promotion schedules ensure that people move on even when they don't need to. Aging the force will help keep people where they are good instead of ensuring the Peter Principle.

4) The ones who are being cut aren't any good. The Army has been a jobs program for the past 15 years, where consuming oxygen was the only requirement for success. It kills morale among the high achievers (the ones you want to stay around) and wastes money and personnel allocations. Cutting the fat will make the force better.

Edit: I shouldn't say those RIF'd aren't any good, as that's a broad-brush and unfair. I should have said that, according to the metrics being employed, they are merely not as good as their peers.

[This message has been edited by Tango Mike (edited 7/11/2014 2:04p).]

RIFs are a fact of life in the Army and one of the 'occupational hazards' of trying to make it a career. Not the first one, not the last one. Tango Mike is pretty much correct on this.

Life is hard. Sometimes Uncle needs you, sometimes he don't.

I can't believe people are actually shocked by this. After every major war the US fought in RIFs were the name of the game. Peacetime (if that is what you want to call this period we might enter into after leaving Afg) requires an evaluation of performance and rethinking of the direction of armed forces as well as a shrinking budget.

One thing the Army is always fearful for is the stagnation of Officer advancement in peacetime. The period after the Civil War and to some point WWI where officers did not advance in rank cannot be repeated in a healthy military structure. You have to cull the herd to keep it strong.

As was posted above, Sometimes Uncle Sam needs you, some times he doesn't.

My letter of resignation for the Navy is in. Looking to be out Jan-Feb 2015. F*** this war time pace in a peace time environment.

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3) The Army is trying to age the force to better manage talent instead of managing year groups. Lock-step promotion schedules ensure that people move on even when they don't need to. Aging the force will help keep people where they are good instead of ensuring the Peter principle

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Disagree on this point... Those officer separation boards only targeted specific year groups, not all O-3s and O-4s

[This message has been edited by BQ08 (edited 7/11/2014 11:59p).]

http://nypost.com/2014/07/09/sending-pink-slips-to-a-war-zone/

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In a stunning display of callousness, the Defense Department has announced that thousands of soldiers — many serving as commanding officers in Afghanistan — will be notified in the coming weeks that their service to the country is no longer needed.

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It's the budget and mandated cuts to end-strength. The number of officers allowed at each pay grade is set by Congress. It can fluctuate up or down a bit but it is called end-strength because at the end of the fiscal year, 30 September, that is the number that the armed forces cannot exceed. The pink slips are coming now so that the officers will have hit all the necessary wickets in outprocessing by 30 September.

Anecdotal Point of Reference.

I was a rookie RA Armor 2LT just getting to Fort Hood in the summer of 1975 when the '75 RIF was announced. I think this was the second post Vietnam RIF but I could be wrong on that memory. Anyway, guys were getting a check for seems like $35K and a discharge. Mostly CPTs but a few MAJs, too. Pretty much all these guys were prior enlisted, OCS during the height of Vietnam, YG67, YG68 mostly. Also lots of guys who had been Aviation Warrants and had received battlefield promotions and 'converted' to CPTs in Combat Arms branches. Remember back then Aviation was a Skill, not a Branch like it is now. They were good helo jockeys but had no branch 2LT/1LT time and it often showed - probably not going to get anyone here who had this pathway/experience to corroborate my old memories. I remember personally serving with several guys like this in my Tank Bn who were commanding tank companies and were struggling to tell the collective from the TC over-ride handle. Most of these guys caught up in this '75 RIF did not have college degrees.

Anyway, one Fri night at about 1730 I wander into Hood's Pub and the RIF party was going strong. Virtually everyone there still in their fatigues, which was a common practice in that era. The place was packed, plenty of aviators still in their Nomex outfits and obligatory cool sunglasses. What we would now refer to as 'pole dancers' were working the stages. Some poor drunk CPT was there with a bunch of his buds, leaning back in his chair while his supposedly wife was doing a strip show up on a table in front of him. Everyone was enjoying the show, while said CPT was enjoying his $35K check. The rock band was blaring and the $0.75 drinks were flowing. It was a much different Army back then.

Bottom line, this ain't the first time. I remember serving with several post RIF guys who reverted back to enlisted to finish out their 20 years and retire. Several prior CPTs and one prior MAJ. One was a damn good SSG in my Tank Bn (2-70 AR, 24ID) and just winked at me when I asked if he was going to have any trouble working for me, having done the job I was doing then (BMO). 'Not a problem, Sir." And it wasn't. It won't be the last time.



[This message has been edited by WBBQ74 (edited 7/13/2014 8:47a).]

I remember some heartbroken Ags in the class of '75. Had pilot scholarships and were told they weren't needed. I believe they commissioned, but straight into the reserves, no UPT, no active duty.

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4) The ones who are being cut aren't any good. The Army has been a jobs program for the past 15 years, where consuming oxygen was the only requirement for success. It kills morale among the high achievers (the ones you want to stay around) and wastes money and personnel allocations. Cutting the fat will make the force better.

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BS. The ones that are getting out are the ones that Army should be keeping for these are the ones that can survive on the "outside". I heard the same crap during the 1990's drawdown for the ones the Army kept were mostly "politicians" who knew how to garner the system. I know personally some of the officers that left and they were the ones the Army needed to keep and I knew quite a few that the Army kept that I would not let them lead me to a latrine.

Concur APHIS...anyone who was good enough to make it in the civilian world left during the Clinton drawdown. A good buddy of mine was an MI MAJ on 18 AB Corps staff. He took the early out offer of the time, left a promising 13-year Army career and is now selling insurance in NC.

My dad was in JROTC in the late 1940s. Two of his favorite instructors were MSGs that had been batallion commanders during WWII. They had had to revert to their highest enlisted rank until retirement or be RIF'ed. The nice thing was, both had been LTCs long enough to retire at that rank.

IMHO, RIF's almost never seem to target the right people.

[This message has been edited by DogCo84 (edited 7/13/2014 2:51a).]

It's a different economy and a different RIF. Nobody is getting paid to leave this time. The
ones getting RIFd are getting passed over for promotion.

If you're basing your "firsthand" knowledge on a guy selling insurance (or JROTC, wtf) from 20 years ago, you may want to consider sitting this one out.

Tango Mike: I understand that you feel you have some gifted insight into THIS RIF. You are correct, I have no idea of any particulars of THIS RIF. All I was saying is that there have been many RIFs over the Army's history. They almost NEVER work as advertised. That is--provide the force desired post-RIF.

RE JROTC...you obviously didn't read/comprehend. I described a situation post WWII where ACTIVE DUTY MSG instructers had previously been ACTIVE DUTY Batallion Commander LTCs during a war. Their RIF offered them the opportunity to drop back to their highest enlisted rank to complete 20 for retirement...and retire at their highest rank held. Yes, I realize--completely different from this RIF. I intended it to illustrate a more humane way to accomplish the same goal--reduce commissioned end-strength. Please ignore if you can find no meaningful info in the words.

JROTC instructors are always retirees.

Officers aren't the only ones getting cut. It would be hard to get to 420,000 or 350,000 if we merely changed the rank insignias on people already in. Enlisted RIFs started 3 years ago

I am beginning to understand that facts and history don't mean much to you Tango. You are wrong...JROTC instructors were ACTIVE DUTY officers and NCOs from 1916 until 1964. I yield to your knowledge of the current RIF. I'm sure it will suck for all concerned.

http://www.cadetcommand.army.mil/jrotc-history.aspx

[This message has been edited by DogCo84 (edited 7/13/2014 1:10p).]

These are not like the Clinton years. The OSB is a board. There is hardly a difference in attrition otherwise... Or there would be no need for the board. Sorry, but as much as anyone may want to believe it, the talent isn't running for the hills.

I'll defer to Dog for RIF in year's past, but these OSB/ESERBs took those lessons learned into consideration ...ask yourself if we need to keep the best officers in our corps, and then see if the mechanism used should achieve it... In the end (and theory) the best officers will not be given a package/incentive to leave like in years past.

[This message has been edited by Fly army 97 (edited 7/13/2014 7:32p).]

I was active duty during the 90's RIF.

The first thing every career minded officer and junior and senior NCO did was get their asses in shape.

If they carried an extra 15, they starved themselves to drop it. Non com's would double platoon PT (twice a day) to drop the weight.

Officers that we'd not seen in months for morning PT, started showing up in droves.

The post gym/pool was packed in the evenings.

Some of these men were battle tested from GW1. They had earned bronze stars and executed flawless platoon and/or company gunneries and maneuver training exercises. But, in the end, they knew the DA Photo and a PT Test signed by T&E said more than all of that. (A PT test signed by T&E instead of one signed by his gunner or the guy who is next to him, in formation). The DA Photo made it easy to choose.

Unfortunately, I saw some really good soldiers be let go. Meanwhile some muscle headed gym rat with an IQ equivalent to the 250 lb bar he was benching, survive it.

However, most of the ones that survived, earned it (from my limited view).

We had a Battalion sensing session administered by the Chaplain during all of this. I happened to read the assessment he submitted through the CO to Brigade. The universal theme was that those being let go, or worried about being let go, needed to be reminded that the Army didn't exist to give them a job, medical benefits, trips to Spain etc. The Army serves a mission. These men were there to assist in accomplishing this mission. If the mission isn't there anymore...



[This message has been edited by Say Chowdah (edited 7/13/2014 9:19p).]

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You are wrong...JROTC instructors were ACTIVE DUTY officers and NCOs from 1916 until 1964.

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Not to be an internet lawyer, but he did say:

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JROTC instructors are always retirees.

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That doesn't mean that they were always retirees.

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The first thing every career minded officer and junior and senior NCO did was get their asses in shape.

If they carried an extra 15, they starved themselves to drop it. Non com's would double platoon PT (twice a day) to drop the weight.

Officers that we'd not seen in months for morning PT, started showing up in droves.

The post gym/pool was packed in the evenings.

Some of these men were battle tested from GW1. They had earned bronze stars and executed flawless platoon and/or company gunneries and maneuver training exercises. But, in the end, they knew the DA Photo and a PT Test signed by T&E said more than all of that. (A PT test signed by T&E instead of one signed by his gunner or the guy who is next to him, in formation). The DA Photo made it easy to choose.

Unfortunately, I saw some really good soldiers be let go. Meanwhile some muscle headed gym rat with an IQ equivalent to the 250 lb bar he was benching, survive it.

However, most of the ones that survived, earned it (from my limited view).

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Good lord, it's 2014 and nothing has changed.

Not the case this time around...essentially, other than having having a new eval in the file, officer's records were already written for the board. You can't change the last 10 years of performance for a lot of these MAJs about to get the results. A new photo or APFT (which isn't part of the board) isn't going to change much in terms of results.

So, results are pretty much out...the verdict? Did the Army get it right?

Fly, are the results out? I work with two Majors who are still sweating bullets. Can they assume no news is good news now?

Army LT here. Just went through the CPT board. The rate is dropping pretty quick, but not to the point where any of us need to worry much.

I can't really speak to the quality of officers being released, but I will say that I feel there is a lot of dead weight that made it too far up the ladder in recent years. Accelerated timelines and ultra-high promotion rates let a lot of people slip through the cracks. I think we definitely have room to trim some fat.

As far as running for the hills, I think a lot of good guys are being run off. Lots of frustrations and little incentive to go above and beyond. In talking with my peers, I would say that most officers that would be considered in the top half are exploring options outside the Army. It's the lower end guys that seem to be set on a career. I read 'Bleeding Talent' earlier this year, and it has a lot of good thoughts on this topic. Any of y'all read it?

Clary - the results for MAJs are with units. The notification period is underway but not complete...depends on the unit and number they need to notify.

As for talent running for the hills...I got the same vibe when I was an LT and young CPT. We all looked at options. Some good dudes left. Yes, talent does leave, but a lot of talent stays. Those guys hopefully get recognized and put into positions of increased leadership to row with different parts of the organization.

A larger part of that conversation is how to identify someone's long term potential before their initial term obligation is complete because that self licking ice cream cone is a dangerous when you miss the mark.

What do you mean by this - "Lots of frustrations and little incentive to go above and beyond" Is it a lack of clear promotion potential? Or a the system doesn't favor those with the best performance?


[This message has been edited by Fly Army 97 (edited 8/10/2014 8:01a).]

Apparently one Major is claiming the process is a knee jerk reaction.

http://allenbwest.com/2014/08/letter-army-major-received-pink-slip/

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Although the details of the board instructions will remain hidden, this also serves as ironclad proof that these awards are merely a method to provide credibility to a force that has integrity issues and morally barren for true sacrifices.

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I read the above article, and it was hard to not just stop after the second sentence of the Major's article. Then, he says that the Army needs to look at the "body of work"! Well, his DUI is a part of his body of work. He seems to think his GOMAR should be overlooked.....why? If all things are equal, you have to use some metric to determine a winner and loser, so I can see why the restricted files have been opened. I was able to sit in with the Army G-Staff a few weeks ago, and part of the brief was on the results of the reduction board. The board does not affect me, so I guess I don't really have a dog in the fight persay, but I thought the answers given to reasons for certain aspects of the board made sense once they were thoroughly explained.....to include why those deployed were being treated no different than those who are not.

I wish the Army would have just canned that cat after his DUI. Unfortunately we were/are at war and we've needed folks. Only in that I believe the Army failed. Sometimes you have to do what's right regardless of the cost. A DUI is a DUI. When has it ever been good to have one of those? His release should not come as a surprise.

[This message has been edited by Cavgrunt97 (edited 8/10/2014 6:11p).]

nm; didn't read far enough.

[This message has been edited by Ulysses90 (edited 8/10/2014 7:04p).]

Fly Army, so much of our time is spent reacting to 50m targets. TLPs are a shell of what they should be and there are few opportunities for true planning. Furthermore, you get hesitant to take initiative when you're conditioned to thinking that higher changes will cut your legs out from under you. That, or the week's latest #1 priority will trump it altogether. It definitely fosters a defensive mindset.

I hope that clarifies without sounding too whiney. There's just a lot of frustration there...

Just read your post again. I was speaking to the frustrations that's pushing my peers and I to explore other options. You want to do the job you signed up to do.

To better address your question, I think we look at those above us that we believe to be causing these frustrations, and think, "Do really want to continue working underneath these guys?" Personally, I look at the career path and see that after ten or so years in, the best officers in a year group will only be one year ahead of the worst (BZ to MAJ). I know that's sort of a simplification, but it almost feels like the year group approach reigns in the best and props up the worst. It's hard to get excited about that long-term.

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4) The ones who are being cut aren't any good. The Army has been a jobs program for the past 15 years, where consuming oxygen was the only requirement for success. It kills morale among the high achievers (the ones you want to stay around) and wastes money and personnel allocations. Cutting the fat will make the force better.

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This is not true. I know of a MacArthur Leadership Award recipient with 5 deployments currently acting in an O5 role at branch HQ (told by a general at the school house that his OERs were in the Top 1% and he was stunned by the board's decision). Unfortunately, he had a DUI as an LT and was told it would remain restricted in his OMPF until he was up for BN command.

Despite his military accolades in the 12+ years since his DUI, he learned last week he was part of the RIF. This guy was an outstanding Aggie, and excellent officer.

No offense to your friend, but getting a DUI showed that he 1) broke the law, and 2) failed to uphold a standard that he probably required of his Soldiers. If he had been an NCO, he probably would have been reduced in rank and administratively separated. Hiding a GOMAR in the restricted portion of his file doesn't mean it didn't happen. There are plenty of good officers who didn't break the law and give the board an example of poor decision making to see. While it appears that his service has been remarkable otherwise, the line had to be drawn somewhere.