You may be inferring a tone or implications that I don't intend. I'm not criticizing the safety nets - I'm just saying I'd like to see fewer needing them in the first place. I also don't think it's entirely a "wussification," although I could see the case that it's a significant part… but you take a 22yo who was "someone" on the inside and becomes an isolated nobody on the outside… its going to be rough. I'm curious what would happen if we set up a probationary system for vets (likely with financial incentivizes) where they get integrated with local vets and assigned someone to watched (and evaluated / referred as needed) during their first years of transition.

Think of the social role the church used to fill: helping network folks across society in worship, learning, recreation, employment, dating, etc. The decline of that institution alone leaves a half dozen voids. If the youngest generations were pushed into the VFW / American Legion groups you may see them backfilling SOME of modernity's voids.

Shoot. It was still like that on line units in 2014. No one wants to "look weak".

I always told my men, "sometimes you got to take off the armor and get some help".

What do we do every Monday at the motor pool? PMCS are vehicles. What's the last thing we PMCS…..if at all? Our Soldiers. Those breakdown too without proper maintenance…

I can't remember where I read it, but the long amount of time between end of combat and returning home (occupation duty, long boat rides etc..) was good for WW2 vets. In my modern example I was running patrols and under fire exactly a week before returning home my first tour. Hell I was wounded by an IED exactly 30 days prior to coming home in 2008.

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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I think most WWII vets also did a better job assimilating back into society. Most of them did their job, came home, and started their families and really didn't talk a whole lot about the war. They shoved their experience deep down and out of reach. We also didn't have a culture where the military was their identity. At least I don't think

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I want to elaborate on a couple of points you made.

I'm lucky enough to have gotten to spend a good amount of time with my mother's father b. 1915 but not nearly as much time with my father's father b. 1909. Dad's dad served in the Navy and since he was married with children, he spent the entire war at Pensacola, FL where he was a tailgunner trainer. Mom's father didn't get married until after the war but he spent 3 years in combat with the US Army Air Corps in the South Pacific fighting through New Guinea and The Philippines.

A few major differences between then and now.

In WWII, our nation was fighting against major industrialized nations - Germany, Italy and Japan. They attacked us with weapons they manufactured themselves. And today, we drive their cars.

When was the last time you bought anything that was made in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. And what is that thing they're well known for producing? Afghanistan - rugs, opium? Iraq - can't think of anything other than oil unless you want to go back to Biblical times and give them credit for beer. In any case, neither country passes the Frank Zappa test of having a good beer and a good airline.

In WWII, we as a nation were at war other nations. And we were in it until it was over. I've seen my Grandfather's Enlistment papers where it states that he's in for 5 years or until the War is over. I look at his six Overseas Service Bars and think that's a lot. Then I look at some of the Generals today with 10-15 Overseas Service Bars and think - As a nation, what were we doing for 20 years? We could beat the Russians in the Space Race and put a man on the Moon before the end of a decade but we can't defeat a bunch of guys living in a cave inside of 2 decades.

Myself, I was an Armor Officer in the TXARNG from 1994-2000. There was never a question in my mind that we would wind up back in Iraq at some point. Likely fighting a Tank battle. It didn't happen during my watch but in 2005, my old unit deployed to Iraq for a year.

I thought about it a lot during that year (probably as much as the "weapons of war" VP candidate did). I felt regret that I wasn't there with my unit but, my time in service was long over. In 2005, I was offered a Civilian Job in Iraq making $300k/yr with the caveat that they couldn't guarantee my safety. I thought about it for a split second but I was already making half that much working in Los Angeles and nobody was actively trying to blow me up.

The points I want to make by giving that description is:
We were not at war against an industrialized nation. We were at war against factions of what were usually religious fanatics. Just looking at the casus belli and the enemy, WWII and the GWOT were nothing alike.


For the GWOT, there was no mission complete / successful end state criteria. It wasn't over when Saddam Hussein was removed from power, executed and democracy installed in Iraq. It wasn't over when Osama bin Ladin was killed while hiding out in Pakistan. There's no way to defeat an idea. It's as ridiculous as the NFL's "End Racism" campaign. As long as people exist, it will never end.

The USA as a nation never felt like it was at war for 20 years. There was no rationing, there was no draft. The Military was something that a lot of people did if they wanted to get into combat against members of a different religion, or if they were desperate to get out of town during a bad economy (dot.com crash started just before 9/11 and the Surge in Iraq was just ahead of the Subprime Mortgage crash)

When the WWII veterans came home, it was over. There was no more Mussolini, Hitler or the Third Reich, Japanese Empire. After the war, we occupied those countries for ?? years (79 years and counting at this point).

When the GWOT veterans came home - over a 20 year period, almost nothing was resolved. And we didn't remain in those countries to rebuild their industrialized economies back to where we can buy their cars. No, we just kind of left them in a worse state than when we showed up and we lost a lot of American lives and Trillions of USD doing it.

As far as assimilation back into society, there are two parts to it.
1 - The fact that it was individuals getting out of the service while the conflict was still going. The civilians didn't know it was over because they never knew it was going in the first place. See people like me living fat dumb and happy while my old unit was deployed.
2 - With budget cuts and our weapons becoming more lethal, fewer and fewer people are required to project the same amount of combat power. As a result, we have very few people serving in the military. So instead of everybody my age who had both Grandfathers serve in WWII, these days, most people have to look really hard to find a cousin or friend who is serving in the Military or who has served recently.

That leads to this treatment of Military Veterans as some sort of odd entity. And because regular civilians don't know anybody in the military, they don't really know anything other than what they see on TV or in the movies.

Back to the whole topic of how this relates to suicides, etc.

According to the report posted earlier, military suicides related to OEF/OIF appear to be not much different than civilians in the same age range. But, we all know somebody who has succumbed or somebody who is on the edge. Maybe more than one.

In conclusion to my whole thought, overall point is - we shouldn't compare today's veterans to WWII veterans because it was a totally different ballgame back then.

Nevermind Social Media versus Newspapers and Newsreels.

Once last comment on WWII vets and the military as their identity. Speaking for my mother's father, yeah, it was part of his identity but it wasn't his whole identity. He got up and did calisthenics every morning. Kept his Class A jacket in the front hall closet. I guarantee he thought about it every day and he never stopped hating the "Dirty Nasty Japs".

It wasn't viewed as anything out of the ordinary because everybody else had the same kinds of stories because everybody back then served when our Nation was at war. Even the civilians had to participate with rationing, etc.

Suicide is something that I struggle with understanding because no matter how bad things get, I'm always looking for some sort of upside. Obviously if I had a terminal disease or something like that, I'd probably have a different view.

During my first 10 years out of Texas A&M, we had a bunch of guys from the Classes of 1989 - 1991 commit suicide. I don't know what the normal distribution is but if we looked at the 265 or so people who marched Final Review with the Fightin' Texas Aggie Band in May 1989, something like 7 of them would commit suicide within the next 10-15 years. I'd have to go back and list names to validate my numbers but those numbers are fairly accurate.

One of the craziest ones and most shocking for me was a guy who I attended Muster with at Fort Knox during 1999. I was there for our 2 week Annual Training in SIMNET and he was there for the Armor Officers Advanced Course.

Then I ran into his father at Muster at Reed Arena in April 2000. I assumed he was there in his capacity with the Aggie Band Association to answer "Here!" for the Class of '89 Infantry Band Drum Major who died in a plane crash in May 1999. But before the ceremony, he said that he didn't know he was going to be there and just found out. I didn't read too much into that but when they called his son's name and he answered "Here" I realized what had happened.
https://sites.rootsweb.com/~txdicken/spur/m/marion_paul.htm

Anyway, fast forward to Covid-19 and I start hearing stories about college aged kids committing suicide during the lockdowns and thereafter. I went through that crap in Los Angeles County and I was very mad. Furious. I did everything I could to cope and developed a really bad attitude.

The first story that got my attention was the USAFA cadets who killed themselves during the initial quarantine lockdowns. But then I started hearing more stories. I think it's been about 2 years now since I had two different friends have their children commit suicide.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/30/air-force-academy-senior-cadets-deaths-suicide-pandemic/5089018002/

I think these stories don't get reported enough and nobody wants to pry so we don't really learn anything more that might be able to help with prevention.

But yeah, it's more prevalent among the regular population these days than what most of us realize.

Aggie Therapist said:

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Peer support groups is the future

I'm a huge fan of them. Best of all, no cost.

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Peer support groups are good, if it's actually peers. Guys I knew who were struggling with combat, and losing friends in combat, aren't going to sit in a group with the guy who got ptsd stateside while an airplane mechanic. He may have legit ptsd from something, but they don't care, he needs to be with people with the same experiences.

They especially loathe the guy who was coached on what to say to get his ptsd rating for the benefits.They would rather deal with it on their own then be around people like that.

This is not a hypothetical.