Aggie Therapist said:

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Oh I definitely felt that.

I was Army ROTC and had a contract. I felt that there was some type of power struggle with Corps vs Trigon.

I felt like I was threatened to conduct training a certain way and had my contract used as leverage in order to get me to "stay in line". This was my zip year, I was mature enough to start running my outfit the way I wanted to but Army PMS wasn't having it.

I enjoyed the actual Army much better than whatever the Corps has turned into. It was a fun experience, would do it again in a heartbeat but being a leader in the corps of cadets was a pain in the ass at times because of the current structure.

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Part of the problem stems from the fact that the Army culture started diverging from the culture of the Senior Military Colleges in the early '90s -- at the same time West Point went through an entire reorientation of their training model, beginning with a serious crack down on hazing - including the little things like Plebes "pinging" in hallways, having to square corners, and not being able to eat when addressed by upperclassmen at meals.

VMI and the Citadel went through the challenge of bringing in women. Many A&M Cadets still resist women in their outfits, and they want to treat incoming Fish in ways that are not tolerated in the service.

The Army is pretty much over it because they have to be.

Frankly, the biggest issue I observed was competition for Cadet time between ROTC training and responsibilities, and Corps activities. Many Cadets just wanted to do Ranger Challenge, Rudders, and ROTC staff, and not deal with what they called "Corps games". This inevitably led to them getting demerits/punishment, and getting threatened with getting kicked out of the Corps.

Most of the CTOs took the Corps side (particularly Marines) because they did not really understand the Army commissioning model, and assumed all the basic officer training requirements for the Army would happen at OCS/OBC like the USMC. Not so. They viewed Army-focused Cadets as shamming out of their Corps responsibilities (some did.)

ROTC Cadets who focused on Corps activities and skipped ROTC training generally performed in the bottom quad at Camp - because they were physically and tactically unprepared, and tended to act like pissheads when put in charge -- which was not well received by cadets from other schools.

Better coordination and dialogue between ROTC and the CTOs helped, but it probably comes and goes depending on changes in staff on both sides.

As for this:

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These 2 guys were working hand in hand to change the Corps: CTO's + DEI.

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Neither Ramirez nor Michaelis gets to unilaterally decide how the University governs student organizations that fall under Title IX -- and that includes the Corps. DEI (and how Title IX requires that trans students must be treated) came from the top -- it was NOT dreamed up on the quad.

Ramirez constantly fought to protect the Corps by retaining discipline authority in most cases. If people don't like the Federal requirements of Title IX, they should sue the government -(or vote them out) - not fire Administrators under Student Affairs that are trying to preserve A&M traditions while tightroping the requirements of Federal law.

Just my $.02

Trinity Ag said:

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VMI and the Citadel went through the challenge of bringing in women. Many A&M Cadets still resist women in their outfits, and they want to treat incoming Fish in ways that are not tolerated in the service.

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As a parent of a female VMI graduate, I can say that VMI has a few big advantages with respect to integrating females into their Corps.

1 - They're "Corps Only" so they're not trying to exist within the context of a civilian university.
- Do they have some professors who dislike the cadets, or appear to take great pleasure in screwing up people's commissioning plans - yes.
- For the VMI Students, there's no civilian calling the shots for their Corps in the same way that A&M has.

2 - Everybody has to do the Rat Line, there's no way to "Frog In". You could graduate ahead of your Brother Rats but you still have to spend an entire year as part of the Rat Mass and participating in PT & Corps Games.

3 - Since they have NCAA D-1 athletics, that is a huge boost for attracting and retaining females who are trying to get school paid for by playing soccer or water polo, etc. Because of this, approximately 15% of their enrollment is female.

On the other side of the coin, VMI still does have some problems with fully integrating female cadets that Texas A&M probably handles a little bit better.

A - Texas A&M first started having women in the Corps of Cadets in 1974, VMI didn't allow women into the University until 1997 so Texas A&M had a 2 decade head start.

B - VMI is an older college than Texas A&M (1839 v 1876) so as a result, there are many, many, many generations of VMI alumni whose families don't even consider attending a different college. My daughter and I met a guy in August at the "Rat Send Off" in Houston who was 6th Generation VMI and his son was the 7th. His grandkids are planning to be the 8th Generation.
- Since VMI has only been admitting women for 27 years now, you've still got a lot of families who are resentful of females attending VMI.
- My daughter ran into a situation with a family she met whose son was an incoming Rat this year. Even though she was wearing her big honking ring and knew all the lingo and marched an incredible number of disciplinary rifle drills, the father who graduated in the late 80s or early 90s wouldn't give my daughter the time of day. As a result, the son kind of ignored her too. She was unhappy about it but, took it in stride and her attitude was - his dad might not think that (derogatory term for female cadets) have any place at VMI but when his son gets there and makes it through "Hell Week", he'll have a whole different attitude. He'll learn.

C - At VMI, since NCAA athletics is a factor, regular cadets (called NARPs for non-athletic regular person) harbor a resentment for cadets who "get out of" a bunch of stuff because they have to go spend time with their teams for training, watching game film, etc. Since a large number of female cadets are NCAA athletes, the resentment towards athletes (called "Permits" in VMI speak) could be mis-understood for sexism but it's really just regular cadets not appreciating athletes who frequently miss out on Corps games or Army ROTC time, etc.

Texarkanaag69 said:

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Dynamic Pinto Beans said:

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Aggie Therapist said:

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Oh I definitely felt that.

I was Army ROTC and had a contract. I felt that there was some type of power struggle with Corps vs Trigon.

I felt like I was threatened to conduct training a certain way and had my contract used as leverage in order to get me to "stay in line". This was my zip year, I was mature enough to start running my outfit the way I wanted to but Army PMS wasn't having it.

I enjoyed the actual Army much better than whatever the Corps has turned into. It was a fun experience, would do it again in a heartbeat but being a leader in the corps of cadets was a pain in the ass at times because of the current structure.

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I was also a CO during that time as well; but as I had no contract, I did not have that experience… much. There was a meeting with all the brigade COs, even D&Free that I remember that went sideways with the PMS. After that, the trigon left me alone. Most pressure was from 1SG C*****, in a good way. I always felt the pressure between the trigon and the quad was directed mostly at the CTs, and the CTOs were adaptable to the PMS, PNS and PAS. But, I was on the outside, so you probably have a better feel of it.

Btw, what outfit were you in?

Animal A, here. I'm guessing you're a Cobra.

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Pinto, both sons were in A-1 "For The Good Times" Older would command but was also involved in the infamous alleged kidnapping of their CO who was flown to deep west Texas and then he almost beat them back to campus. His fish buddy-partner in crime is now in the Trigon. Both are 06 rank and son will finish his current SpOps command in Feb. '26. As said "For The Good Times."

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This is one of those Corps "good bull" stories that are passed down from generation to generation that gets current Cadets in trouble:

"we kidnapped our CO and dropped in off in Franklin in nothing but his underpants". Or Baton Rouge. Or West Texas.

Uncle Joe or Bob tells it, each example more outlandish than the next. Generally with some degree of alcohol involvement. The CO may even be "in on it" -- knowing it is part of the game.

This stuff used to be considered harmless rights of passage.Dudes being dudes.

But it a classic example of "its all fun and games until someone gets hurt". Administrators no longer turn a blind eye to hijinks like this because when something goes wrong -- and it does every few years -- the angry parents and their trial lawyers are coming after the school and administration who knew it was going on and failed to take actions to prevent it

The university may have some degree of immunity, but the VPSA, Commandant, CTOs, and ROTC staff don't.

You can lament that society has gone soft. Blame cell phones and social and Gen-Z, who can't resist publicizing their tomfoolery for the world to enjoy. But it is what it is.

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the angry parents and their trial lawyers are coming after the school and administration who knew it was going on and failed to take actions to prevent it

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When those Good Bull stories were actually happening, no one, and I mean no one, would have thought to get a parent, lawyer, or school administrator involved.

The less those groups knew, the better.

As you said, different times. And there weren't movie cameras in every pocket, nor any way to distribute those movies.

CT'97 said:

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If you want the Corps of Cadets to be a frat and keep the Commandants office off the quad don't be surprised when it's treated like a frat by the Presidents office and kicked off campus when the next big scandal/hazing incident hits the news.

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I'd like the Corps to be cadet led and NOT the most policed / regulated student organization on campus. I'd like upperclassmen to train fish - not retired enlisted guys who never went through the fish year experience at A&M.

I doubt it, Gen. Ramirez had planned to retire prior to all the Banks crap exploding. After that he agreed to stay on as VP for Student Affairs to help President Welsh get things running. We are 18 months past that so Gen. Ramirez served past his promise and is retiring.

I think people forget that these are people. They have families and want to live their lives and enjoy time with with their kids and grandkids.

And I'd like people to recognize that you have a very narrow window into what's going on. You see very little and most of it is filtered through what others want you to see to support their narrative.

The Corps can't be the Corps of the 50's or the 80's. If it is then it ceases to exist. You have to adapt and change and still strive to accomplish the mission.

CT'97 said:

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And I'd like people to recognize that you have a very narrow window into what's going on. You see very little and most of it is filtered through what others want you to see to support their narrative.

The Corps can't be the Corps of the 50's or the 80's. If it is then it ceases to exist. You have to adapt and change and still strive to accomplish the mission.

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LMAO. This is a ridiculous post.

Who are you? Who are these "people" you are talking to? How do you know what I see? And why do you assume that i am only buying what others want me to see?

Sounds like I hit a nerve, and you're part of the problem. Do you work in the Trigon?

The Corps doesn't need to be the Air Force Academy. It doesn't need to be the most regulated and policed student organization on campus.

Dallas Aggie said:

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CT'97 said:

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And I'd like people to recognize that you have a very narrow window into what's going on. You see very little and most of it is filtered through what others want you to see to support their narrative.

The Corps can't be the Corps of the 50's or the 80's. If it is then it ceases to exist. You have to adapt and change and still strive to accomplish the mission.

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LMAO. This is a ridiculous post.

Who are you? Who are these "people" you are talking to? How do you know what I see? And why do you assume that i am only buying what others want me to see?

Sounds like I hit a nerve, and you're part of the problem. Do you work in the Trigon?

The Corps doesn't need to be the Air Force Academy. It doesn't need to be the most regulated and policed student organization on campus.

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Yeah, the fraternities would be laughing their asses off if they read this forum.

He is 100% right. it isn't 1986 anymore.

You can lament the days gone by, but times change -- sometimes in ways we don't like, and sometimes for the better. Current Cadets want chances to lead, and there is absolutely resentment of some CTOs who think they are running basic training. They also don't want to be hazed, harrassed, or fail out of school because an idiot 19 year old has his first taste of authority.

That is a balance the administration has to navigate.

It's simple: Bring the CTO's into a meeting and tell them we are switching their titles back to Military Advisors and their mission is to prevent cadets from doing stupid things that could get them hurt or get TAMU in trouble.

I was a bull in the Trigon from 1985-1988. Here's what I remember.

- There were no tactical officers during that time. There were military advisors (bulls) who were from the three ROTC staffs, and they served as advisors to outfits.
- I could go over to the quad whenever I wanted, but I always called over to the outfit before I did, for two reasons: first, as a sign of respect to the outfit CO, and second, because sneaking around never constitutes good leadership. For my three years, this worked without any issues.
- our boss, an 0-6 and an old Ag '62, knew that cadet leaders would make mistakes from time to time, and that our job was to teach them by using the mistakes as leadership lessons, not as reasons to punish them.
- I always thought that the unique thing about cadet leadership at Texas A&M, compared to the service academies, was the challenge of being the outfit CO, who had to keep the Trigon happy and his fellow seniors happy. The outfit COs who were able to do both were the best leaders, and their outfits usually performed the best.

Strong Men Armed said:

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I was a bull in the Trigon from 1985-1988. Here's what I remember.

- There were no tactical officers during that time. There were military advisors (bulls) who were from the three ROTC staffs, and they served as advisors to outfits.
- I could go over to the quad whenever I wanted, but I always called over to the outfit before I did, for two reasons: first, as a sign of respect to the outfit CO, and second, because sneaking around never constitutes good leadership. For my three years, this worked without any issues.
- our boss, an 0-6 and an old Ag '62, knew that cadet leaders would make mistakes from time to time, and that our job was to teach them by using the mistakes as leadership lessons, not as reasons to punish them.
- I always thought that the unique thing about cadet leadership at Texas A&M, compared to the service academies, was the challenge of being the outfit CO, who had to keep the Trigon happy and his fellow seniors happy. The outfit COs who were able to do both were the best leaders, and their outfits usually performed the best.

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Society used to be a lot more tolerant of mistakes, particularly underage drinking and hazing.

I don't think the gradual infantilization of young people in general, and college students in particular, has been a positive thing -- but there is no universe where A&M -- or any university -- could return to this level of laissez faire.

Frankly, the students AND the parents wouldn't allow it -- nevermind the lawyers.

Ensign Mayo said:

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Tango.Mike said:

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Ensign Mayo said:

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Trinity Ag said:

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EdBos_Ag said:

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Good thoughts, Trinity and Ensign.

The Military Advisor structure used to work pretty well IF you had the right military advisor.

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The thing I will say about the "military advisor" structure is that the expectations and requirements on ROTC staffs are much higher than they used to be.

Also, if you put an Active Army SFC on the quad, monitoring Cadet activities that may be "good bull" but violate University and DoD policy -- there are going to be problems.

Especially when they are all being recorded and posted on instagram. Even somewhat innocuous events like "Air out" don't look great out of context on social media.

And putting officers and NCOs in positions -- in uniform -- observing behavior that Accessions Command and the IG would consider "abusive" is a problem.

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It's true there is a fine line we are walking bc this isn't old army any more.
Specific issues I have are....
why would a CTO tell the pissheads to uncover in bravos during fallout in the hallway? (pissheads are always covered up in the hallway)
why would a CTO reprimand a zip for being in the hallway with his boots, bravo pants and white t-shirt (for not being in full uniform)?
Why would a CTO being making sure pissheads are standing at parade rest properly (on simpson drill field, instead of the Butts making sure?

so....it's just micromanagement of the wrong things if you ask me.

They should be here to make sure cadets don't do something stupid (like hazing) and jeopardize themselves or TAMU

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I guess the question is why aren't those things being corrected by other cadets so the CTO doesn't have to do it. Officers in the military aren't supposed to have to tell Joe to put his hat on, but if his NCO doesn't correct him someone has to do it.

Why are sophomores wearing their hats inside? The regulations say to remove you hat indoors. Why are sophomores special?

Why aren't the juniors ensuring the sophomores are exhibiting a bit of discipline in formation? (And nobody hates parades and reviews more than I do)

Why are the seniors going about in improper uniforms? Why do they enforce a uniform standard on others that they are not following? If the argument is that it's inside the living quarters, then the sophomores in hats issue falls even flatter.

I think it's exactly the CTO's job to enforce the rules if and when the cadets fail or refuse to do so. Slippery slope fears aside, if you aren't enforcing discipline, what good is pretending to be anything other than a frat with silly clothes?

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Pissheads have to wear biders in the hallway. It is not a pisshead privilege to be uncovered in the hallway in uniform. There is nothing to correct. We are not the army.

There's nothing wrong with a Senior being in the hallway in half uniform. He's not at formation. There's nothing to correct here. We are not the army.

And regarding correcting parade rest on Simpson drill field , if the CTOs would back off that absolutely the upperclassman would step up, but the problem is cadets have gotten so used to these guys micromanaging everything, it's like they are higher ranked than zips! Total crap!

Get these guys off the quad or at least give them a new mission.

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This pretty well illustrates the downside of A&M's insulated outfit culture. My company didn't require sophomores to wear their hats in the hallway, though others may have and your obviously did. Though it's been a long time since I was a cadet, the Standard said cadets will remove their hats in a building. There wasn't a carve-out for sophomores that I remember.

And though I remember it being some junior or senior privilege to go about half-dressed, even as a cadet I didn't understand the inconsistent application of rules.

I've thought the Corps would benefit greatly from scrambling freshmen at the end of their fish year, but I realize I'm in the minority. I accept that the Corps is really just a collection of 30 loosely-affiliated fraternities with half the kids adding ROTC classes on top, but it bills itself as an military-esque organization and in a military-styled organization, yes real officers outrank cadets. You obviously don't agree, which is fine since I'm just a guy on the internet

It is fascinating how many former Cadets see their 4-year experience in the Corps as the baseline from which things have diverged -- sometimes for the better but usually for the worse.

But talk to older Cadets, and the traditions, standards, and way of doing things they hold as sacred were very different 10-20 years prior.

The Army, VMI, USMA, the Citadel -- and I suspect the USMC and Navy -- all experience the same phenomena.

Trinity Ag said:

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It is fascinating how many former Cadets see their 4-year experience in the Corps as the baseline from which things have diverged -- sometimes for the better but usually for the worse.

But talk to older Cadets, and the traditions, standards, and way of doing things they hold as sacred were very different 10-20 years prior.

The Army, VMI, USMA, the Citadel -- and I suspect the USMC and Navy -- all experience the same phenomena.

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There is a story, I believe in Keepers of the Spirit, where former cadets were writing to the president of the college and complaining that the Corps was dead because they moved out of tents into a dorm.