Tell me what I need to know (brewpub startup)

4,210 Views | 38 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by AggieOO
RustyBoltz
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AG
The SO and I came across a For Sale property in a small town we like to occasionally visit. Over the years we've fantasized about opening a small eatery, what we think works well in some of the towns we visit, what we'd serve, etc. And I enjoy the brewing science and drinking good, simple beer.
That said, besides some extravagant ideas, no local competition, and some positive responses from local business owners (home furnishing and event venue); what do we need to know before getting in over our heads?
The previous owners put in the work to renovate the main building into a restaurant with bar. Our idea is to develop the whole property into a brewpub with eatery and Biergarten to serve as a local watering hole.
AlaskanAg99
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AG
1st, do you homebrew? If you don't, you should start there. Brewing isn't like making sandwiches or pizza. The fundamentals of process and recipe are the same, the equipment is just different.

If you do, then you need to scope out equipment, 5bbl/7/10? This will determine your utility requirements for gas and water. Is this town on well and septic, or do you have a water and sewer plant. You'll be using strong acids and cleaning and sanitizing products that can't just be dumped down the drain.

Local laws at city/County level. Most breweries operate as industrial plants, but if you add a kitchen you're adding a lot of red tape and rules/requirements. This is why so many breweries just rely on food trucks. At that point with a kitchen you're running 2 different businesses.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/going-pro-5-homebrew-con-seminars-on-professional-brewing/

https://www.probrewer.com/library/archives/how-to-go-pro-in-the-beer-biz/

And don't be underfunded. You're only as good as your product. Be ready to dump batches if they have issues, but see my first point. Learn to brew and make sure you enjoy the process. It can be frustrating when starting.

There was a poster here that had a blog on his brewery that failed.
aTm '99
ORAggieFan
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Unless you have a ton of brewing experience, I'd likely go with just the pub aspect of this. This isn't an easy business to be in and you may be taking on too much.
jtp01
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AG
There is a good Ag with a microbrewery with a tasting room in Dumas, TX. JL and his wife are great folks and for the short time they have opened, they have created something really special for this small Panhandle community.

Check out http://www.toppledturtlebrewing.com/

I am in no way affiliated with these folks outside of enjoying their brews and their friendship!

I would imagine JL would help you if his schedule allows.
diehard03
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Quote:

what do we need to know before getting in over our heads?

It's gonna cost a ton of money to basically replace your job with significantly higher risk and stress than you have now. Very small, seemingly inconsequential things that you have no control or will put your business on the brink of survival (competition moving in, regulations changing, traffic flow changes, etc). Your dollars per hour are going to be dismal.

Personally, I think you "have to be about that life" to succeed.


Quote:

if you add a kitchen you're adding a lot of red tape and rules/requirements. This is why so many breweries just rely on food trucks.

I've heard its also the consumer mindset changes. A brewery that has rotating food trucks hits people differently than a brewpub - a bad food experience doesn't affect them like a bad food experience at restaurant with a menu.
RustyBoltz
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AG
I've been a AG homebrewer for a few years. A coworker got me into brewing ales with him but at the time he was just getting into AG and only using dry yeast. I expanded our system to do recirculating mashes and improve efficiency, switched to growing wet yeast, and started us lagering.
Ornlu
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I think this sounds cool as hell. As a consumer, I will pay a bunch extra for real brewpubs because I know how difficult TABC makes it. I don't think that makes me a typical consumer tho.

Sorry that I have no helpful advice; I just think it's a really cool idea.
Rexter
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RustyBoltz said:

The previous owners put in the work to renovate the main building into a restaurant with bar.


Backstory on this?
AlaskanAg99
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AG
Depending on where this is, they may have codes for brewing. Don't even think about a nano 3bbl setup. Not if you want to make any sort of $$$.

And if you're 5bbl FV or higher you have to start looking a slab thickness to support the weight. And if they have codes you may have to cut the slab out, put in floor drains, then repour a thicker slab that's sloped I to the drains. And put a specific chemical topcoat treatment so your chemicals don't destroy the concrete.

For sgits and giggled you should start working on a business plan. And there's resources out there and books from the AHA on how to get started.

I know 4 people who started breweries. 2 have failed.

1 due to a landlord who sort of bent them over.
The other after an expansion to a 2nd location but they couldn't sell enough in a highly competitive packaged market.
aTm '99
CDub06
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Someone shared their experience with a failed brewery in podcast form. Might be worth a listen to see where they failed (it wasn't the brewing or having a cool space).

https://texags.com/forums/67/topics/3105295
NColoradoAG
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Lots of good advice so far. All I can say is if you brew beer you need to brew what the public wants to drink, not what you want to drink. You may think a nice dry saison is an awesome beer to enjoy on a warm weekend night, but 90% of the public doesn't want that at all.
AustinCountyAg
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If it is going to be a legit, full time restaurant/bar type of place be prepared now to spend 26 hours a day there and kiss your weekends and free time goodbye. Like the other poster said you have to be about the life or it will fail. It's a tough business, and you have to be all in and really enjoy the lifestyle. Did I say be prepared to work 26 hours a day and to spend every minute of your time there??
Buck Compton
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AustinCountyAg said:

If it is going to be a legit, full time restaurant/bar type of place be prepared now to spend 26 hours a day there and kiss your weekends and free time goodbye. Like the other poster said you have to be about the life or it will fail. It's a tough business, and you have to be all in and really enjoy the lifestyle. Did I say be prepared to work 26 hours a day and to spend every minute of your time there??
100%, but it's not just this. It's WHEN those hours are that disrupts most people who haven't worked in the industry. Your busiest hours where you're needed the most on-site are when everyone else is off work.

I had a cousin go through this, and I helped him do the business plan and get funded. He did almost everything on my list at the bottom of this post and still was close to being undercapitalized, he was down to one month of opex in the bank by the time his traffic picked up and he stayed in the black. He sold it all a few years later for a decent profit cause the stress took its toll. He loved beer when he opened, but it was no longer fun by the end.

If you have any hobbies outside of the business, kiss them goodbye for the first few years. Anything you tend to do on Saturdays or Sundays is gone. Aggie Football? Not for a few years. Even little things like mowing the yard becomes a real pain in the ass. Cause you have to fit it into a tiny window or pay someone to do it when your cash flow just took a hit.

- Training for a marathon or some other serious fitness event? Better be able to do it on 4 hours sleep after closing at 9 and not leaving until 11 the night before and having to be back at the restaurant by 8-9 for an 11 opening.
- Want to remodel a room in the house DIY? Try again in a few years.
- Health Insurance is about to get more expensive. Like A LOT.
- Like to golf? Well that's only going to happen on a day you keep the restaurant closed (PS - someone will likely still need to go up there for deliveries on that day). And then you're balancing it vs all the back office stuff you didn't get done because you had to tend bar or run expo cause you had a "no call, no show" the night before.

Now, since this is a "little town you visit", I assume you may be looking for less of a management stake and more investment... in that case, run and run now. This industry requires quit your job and spend all your free time on it type of focus for the first two years, sometimes longer, especially in a small town where you aren't going to get great (or even very experienced) help.

But if you are definitely all in for this and ready to live that life... here is some restaurant advice to add to what others have said as you draw up a business plan:

- Calculate cost of all remaining renovations, including potential foundation upgrades and all equipment. Then add 20%. Don't forget to account for maintenance and that $400 emergency fee for someone to come fix the vent hood that shorted out.
- Design a simple food menu with overlapping ingredients and test, test, test before you launch. Want to have a beet salad with goat cheese on the menu for something light? Better also have a roasted beet soup or beet fries and use goat cheese on a burger or something. Maybe that salad could also be in pizza form and be cheaper to make. Food goes bad and you eat every cent of the loss. Don't need to go too niche too quickly here. KISS and stay on theme.
- Know your food costs and ratios in each recipe and keep them simple. Sure, maybe 4T of butter makes that dish James Beard-worthy, but 2T tastes 98% as good, is indiscernible to most people, and you can literally make twice as many for the same butter cost.
- Take all your estimated food prices on the menu you create and add 10% (minimum). Gross margins on most items probably need to be 70-75% to clear your overhead. If that price point doesn't work for the town, maybe reconsider.
- Find your "thing" quickly to change that menu to adapt to customer base. You'll figure out real quick if the town sees you as a "come have a meal and maybe some good beer" or as "come drink a beer after work or to watch the games and grab some appetizers". Your external marketing has less to do with this than you think. Your actual ambiance and experience definitely matters, but what often matters just as much is which of those is underserved in this town.
- Know those per seat and per ticket sales numbers like the back of your hand. Don't be afraid to re-do your seating arrangement to maximize total sales based on that.
- Don't understaff or undertrain. Not even considering the brewing portion, you probably need one BOH staff for every FOH staff. Maybe 3:4 BOH:FOH depending on your model. Do your best to find a very competent and experienced GM who has run a restaurant before. Sounds like you know more on the beer side than the food side, so this is critical.
- Start with a full six months opex float in the bank account on opening day. This may just be the scars from watching my cousin go through this talking, but you're going to burn through that savings early on. Start with at least six and build up your reserve back to six before you start taking any kind of cash or salary back out.
ATM9000
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AG
I'm on a list from a fairly experienced and successful bar and restaurant guy who looks for investors in all of his new businesses and locations. Whenever he presents a business plan, I'm always shocked at the amount of liquid working capital he asks for in hi business plan... it's probably double-ish the 6 months opex you quoted. That trapped capital is where I've always stopped considering an investment.
Buck Compton
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ATM9000 said:

I'm on a list from a fairly experienced and successful bar and restaurant guy who looks for investors in all of his new businesses and locations. Whenever he presents a business plan, I'm always shocked at the amount of liquid working capital he asks for in hi business plan... it's probably double-ish the 6 months opex you quoted. That trapped capital is where I've always stopped considering an investment.
12 months is actually probably pretty fair, especially if you're leasing and on at least a year lease. Six is an absolute minimum to me, but even there is some risk.
RustyBoltz
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Rexter said:

RustyBoltz said:

The previous owners put in the work to renovate the main building into a restaurant with bar.


Backstory on this?
I guess it was the previous, previous owners. I don't know yet what led them to eventually sell it after they put in all the restoration work. The previous owners tried to run it as a 2 day/week fine dining restaurant. The locals we know said it failed because it was too pricey for the locals and the guest chefs they regularly brought in were not consistent.
RustyBoltz
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AlaskanAg99 said:

Depending on where this is, they may have codes for brewing. Don't even think about a nano 3bbl setup. Not if you want to make any sort of $$$.

And if you're 5bbl FV or higher you have to start looking a slab thickness to support the weight. And if they have codes you may have to cut the slab out, put in floor drains, then repour a thicker slab that's sloped I to the drains. And put a specific chemical topcoat treatment so your chemicals don't destroy the concrete.

For sgits and giggled you should start working on a business plan. And there's resources out there and books from the AHA on how to get started.

I know 4 people who started breweries. 2 have failed.

1 due to a landlord who sort of bent them over.
The other after an expansion to a 2nd location but they couldn't sell enough in a highly competitive packaged market.
Thanks Alaskan. I started reading through those links and came to the conclusion that I need start studying up on commercial brewing practices and develop a rough business plan so I'll have a plan if the opportunity arises in the far off future.

I have no real interest in opening a brewery and restaurant in a metro area because I know the market is saturated and I don't want to be forced to pump out pulpy IPAs and blended waffle stouts to find a niche.

However, my wife and I really love the idea of serving the local community by filling what we perceive to be a gap in the evening offerings and help support the other local businesses.

CDub06
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AG
RustyBoltz said:

I don't want to be forced to pump out pulpy IPAs and blended waffle stouts to find a niche.
NColoradoAG
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Quote:



I have no real interest in opening a brewery and restaurant in a metro area because I know the market is saturated and I don't want to be forced to pump out pulpy IPAs and blended waffle stouts to find a niche.



Hazy IPAs and pastry stouts are not niche beers anymore. They are completely mainstream. A brewery strategy that dismisses those styles is destined to fail.
Ornlu
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NColoradoAG said:

Quote:



I have no real interest in opening a brewery and restaurant in a metro area because I know the market is saturated and I don't want to be forced to pump out pulpy IPAs and blended waffle stouts to find a niche.



Hazy IPAs and pastry stouts are not niche beers anymore. They are completely mainstream. A brewery strategy that dismisses those styles is destined to fail.


You're claiming a brewery cannot possibly be successful unless they make Milkshake IPAs and Plum Pudding Stouts? There are hundreds of successful breweries in America that don't fit into your mould.
terradactylexpress
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I doubt it, every one I go to has something along those lines
NColoradoAG
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Ornlu said:

NColoradoAG said:

Quote:



I have no real interest in opening a brewery and restaurant in a metro area because I know the market is saturated and I don't want to be forced to pump out pulpy IPAs and blended waffle stouts to find a niche.



Hazy IPAs and pastry stouts are not niche beers anymore. They are completely mainstream. A brewery strategy that dismisses those styles is destined to fail.


Your claiming a brewery cannot possibly be successful unless they make Milkshake IPAs and Plum Pudding Stouts? There are hundreds of successful breweries in America that don't fit into your mould.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. I don't know why a brewery owner would put themselves at a disadvantage by not brewing beer that a significant portion of the beer drinking public wants to consume. Im not saying that's all a brewery has to make, or that the beer has to be wacky and off the wall. However, the brewery space is very competitive and the market share for beer is actually slightly contracting due to drinkers who are skewing towards seltzer and spirits.

Just look at the cooler space in any good liquor store and think how much it has changed over the past 5 years, and I'm not even talking about the space that's been yeilded to seltzer. You can look at 5K bbl Breweries that just started packaging all the way up to Sierra Nevada and New Belgium. All of them have pivoted to lineups that contain Hazy IPAs, fruited kettle sours, and sweeter higher abv stouts. Every single one of them.

The same applies in a taproom setting for the most part but obviously you can have a wider variety of beers available depending on your brew house and overhead.
Matsui
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AG
This
RustyBoltz
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I didn't mean for my statement to spark a discussion of the current state of the brewing industry. I meant more to bring the answers away from simply "don't do it," and "the market will chew you up and spit you out." And focus them more on what does it take to start down the path of possibly starting a brewery and eatery in a small rural town.
62strat
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Start a brewery with food trucks.

Then start making and selling pizza. Few ingredients, focused menu, low food cost.

Then figure out if you can make a restaurant work. There aren't very many brewpubs around here in Denver that aren't pretty large companies. The lion's share do food trucks.

Hazy ipa; yes you need ipas, hazy and not.
You probably do not need a pastry stout in a small town however. Barrel age it instead.

In my mind, it's hard to go wrong with craft beer and pizza, as long as they are both relatively good.
RustyBoltz
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62strat said:

Start a brewery with food trucks.

Then start making and selling pizza. Few ingredients, focused menu, low food cost.

Then figure out if you can make a restaurant work. There aren't very many brewpubs around here in Denver that aren't pretty large companies. The lion's share do food trucks.

Hazy ipa; yes you need ipas, hazy and not.
You probably do not need a pastry stout in a small town however. Barrel age it instead.

In my mind, it's hard to go wrong with craft beer and pizza, as long as they are both relatively good.
Rural towns are still developing ways to handle the regulations of food trucks. It's an easy thing for those of us who have lived in Metro areas to assume is the norm now but in this case, it's not an option - there are none.
Since this property is already built out with a commercial kitchen, the plan would be to open as a brewpub with kitchen offering a limited menu and slowly develop the restaurant based on logistics.

Ideas to make use of the commercial kitchen during off hours would be to work with the local ISD to develop a culinary program site or lease usage to either an aspiring food truck startup (likely be required to be tied to a commercial kitchen address).
Ulrich
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IMO, to avoid making things unnecessarily hard on yourself, you need two categories of beer for sure and a third will help.

The first is "normal" beer. 4.5-5% abv blonde, lager, pils. While there are plenty of "beer people" who like this kind of thing, this is for (a) non-craft beer people who need to look at the tap list and see something familiar, and (b) consumers who want something lighter.

The second category is the most popular craft styles. Brown ale and hefe; stout and porter; hazy, juicy, and west coast ipa; sour/farmhouse. They should be solid, fairly normal versions. Maybe the hazy has hints of pineapple, but it doesn't need to be an 11% peppermint mocha pineapple and old leather milkshake DIPA.

The last category is your adventurous stuff. Fruit, spices, barrel aging, rarer styles. Get crazy so that your regular craft beer fanatics frequently have something new to try. And pay attention when one of them "lands" and your customers love it and ask about it when it's gone. It may turn into your hook. Just don't let this category become all you do, because you'll end up with five customers who come every week and everyone else stops coming because they can't count on finding a beer they like.

IMO you can have a great lineup on just a few taps. Lager, pils, hefe, brown, hazy, west coast, stout, sour, and a couple wildcards. Everybody has a beer that they'll session drink or drink every week, but there's also usually something new to try. Shift it a little seasonally and rotate the styles a bit, the only thing you pretty much have to have at all times is a hazy ipa and probably a sour.
Ulrich
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The main thing I've learned about the food side is controlling your cost. Reuse ingredients across multiple dishes. Know exactly how much of each ingredient goes into each dish and how long it takes to prepare. Know how long until each ingredient spoils.

Carefully track how much you sell of each dish. If you find one that doesn't sell and has unique ingredients, it has to go no matter how much you like it. Every spot on the menu is precious, so even if it only borrows ingredients from popular dishes it should probably still be replaced.

Training your cooks is key. They tend to come and go quickly and without warning, so you need to be able to quickly train them to consistently deliver the food the way it's meant to be. That's how you train but also how you equip the kitchen, design the menu, and set up the communication from server/bartender to kitchen and back.

For the love of all that is good and holy, make sure the space is, and looks, clean, including the bathroom. No sticky bar or tabletops, no random splotches of unidentifiable stuff on the wall behind the toilet.

Good ventilation and lighting. No tables getting blasted with 40 mph arctic winds from the hvac; no tables with lights shining through a ceiling fan to create a strobe. Warm yellow/sun lighting, not harsh blue or green.
Buck Compton
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AG
Ulrich said:

The main thing I've learned about the food side is controlling your cost. Reuse ingredients across multiple dishes. Know exactly how much of each ingredient goes into each dish and how long it takes to prepare. Know how long until each ingredient spoils.

Carefully track how much you sell of each dish. If you find one that doesn't sell and has unique ingredients, it has to go no matter how much you like it. Every spot on the menu is precious, so even if it only borrows ingredients from popular dishes it should probably still be replaced.

Training your cooks is key. They tend to come and go quickly and without warning, so you need to be able to quickly train them to consistently deliver the food the way it's meant to be. That's how you train but also how you equip the kitchen, design the menu, and set up the communication from server/bartender to kitchen and back.
This is all good advice. My post from earlier mirrors it. Most people have no clue how to design a restaurant menu to save money. You're going to spend lots of time on it and constantly refining after making mistakes early on.
AlaskanAg99
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RustyBoltz said:

AlaskanAg99 said:

Depending on where this is, they may have codes for brewing. Don't even think about a nano 3bbl setup. Not if you want to make any sort of $$$.

And if you're 5bbl FV or higher you have to start looking a slab thickness to support the weight. And if they have codes you may have to cut the slab out, put in floor drains, then repour a thicker slab that's sloped I to the drains. And put a specific chemical topcoat treatment so your chemicals don't destroy the concrete.

For sgits and giggled you should start working on a business plan. And there's resources out there and books from the AHA on how to get started.

I know 4 people who started breweries. 2 have failed.

1 due to a landlord who sort of bent them over.
The other after an expansion to a 2nd location but they couldn't sell enough in a highly competitive packaged market.
Thanks Alaskan. I started reading through those links and came to the conclusion that I need start studying up on commercial brewing practices and develop a rough business plan so I'll have a plan if the opportunity arises in the far off future.

I have no real interest in opening a brewery and restaurant in a metro area because I know the market is saturated and I don't want to be forced to pump out pulpy IPAs and blended waffle stouts to find a niche.

However, my wife and I really love the idea of serving the local community by filling what we perceive to be a gap in the evening offerings and help support the other local businesses.


Other things to consider is can you operate a forklift inside the brewery or near storage space. Humping around 55lbs sacks of malt is going to get really old really fast.

Another: hop contracts. When you first start out you're most likely not going to be able to get a contract for the 'money' hops and will have to wait. Or you'll have to pay spot prices which will be much more expensive than via a contract. This could really impact your ability to brew certain beers.

And you'll have to brew for what the market demands. Even if you're not a fan, the goal is to make money to keep the place open. I'm not sure if brew houses can work at 50%, so if you have a 10bbl system, doing 5bbl batches for beer that may take longer to move, but can diversify your tap lineup. No reason to make a full batch of something you'll end up dumping once it's old and faded. Or look to get a 1-3bbl pilot rig to do much smaller batches and make a limited release. If they sell well, then scale it up.

We fat americans love sweet ****, so it's no surprise pastry stouts are popular. But it's also a good way to tie in with other local businesses. Work with the local bakery and buy all their day-olds, then toss them in the mash tun.

I think there's quite a bit of resources out there to help build a business plan, it's worth working on just to see how big of a challenge it can be.
aTm '99
YouBet
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AG
RustyBoltz said:

AlaskanAg99 said:

Depending on where this is, they may have codes for brewing. Don't even think about a nano 3bbl setup. Not if you want to make any sort of $$$.

And if you're 5bbl FV or higher you have to start looking a slab thickness to support the weight. And if they have codes you may have to cut the slab out, put in floor drains, then repour a thicker slab that's sloped I to the drains. And put a specific chemical topcoat treatment so your chemicals don't destroy the concrete.

For sgits and giggled you should start working on a business plan. And there's resources out there and books from the AHA on how to get started.

I know 4 people who started breweries. 2 have failed.

1 due to a landlord who sort of bent them over.
The other after an expansion to a 2nd location but they couldn't sell enough in a highly competitive packaged market.
Thanks Alaskan. I started reading through those links and came to the conclusion that I need start studying up on commercial brewing practices and develop a rough business plan so I'll have a plan if the opportunity arises in the far off future.

I have no real interest in opening a brewery and restaurant in a metro area because I know the market is saturated and I don't want to be forced to pump out pulpy IPAs and blended waffle stouts to find a niche.

However, my wife and I really love the idea of serving the local community by filling what we perceive to be a gap in the evening offerings and help support the other local businesses.


Well hell, you're 50% closer to legitimacy already. I came here to tell you not to do an IPA.
RustyBoltz
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AG
This whole idea has been a cool thought process to keep me up at night just because of the unique location and details such as being able to own the property and selling craft beer to a potentially sheltered demographic.
And while it goes against the grain a bit. I have been drawing inspiration from Peticolas, Altstadt, Gella's & Lb. Brewing, and Gordon Biersch. I think there's good opportunity in being the local small town brewpub that brews clean lagers (with some ales) and helps introduce people to craft beer while providing a venue for families to socialize.
ChipFTAC01
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AG
The one in Salado is another good comp.
AlaskanAg99
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If I were to copy any brewpub as a model, it would be Pizza Port out of San Diego. Which is who Pinthouse pizza said inspired their buildout. It's so very hard to go wrong with beer and pizza.

Picnic table seating, so it's very east to scale your space.
Counter service, no waiters or servers. Have room to put 4 POS machines in, 2 are for beer (and food), 2 are for food only. Bussers to clean table spaces up.
A few video games, make it family friendly, but have a bar area off to one side that's no-kids.

Have vegetarian and vegan options. And then anything you can run through a pizza oven, including wings and hot sandwiches as well. As other posters have said, any ingredients that can be multi-purposed.

And outdoor seating, just so the next pandemic won't bone you.
aTm '99
Ulrich
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Why try to pull off a craft beer place without the most popular style of craft beer?

A hazy doesn't have to look like orange juice and smell like a smoothie, and a west coast doesn't have to get up out of its glass and punch you in the face anymore. Clean, balanced IPAs are good sellers, and if you don't have one or two you're going to disappoint a significant portion of your core demographic.
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