Health Care workers vs economy

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bay fan
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9:31a, 3/24/20
S
I've started this thread twice and both times deleted it as I couldn't write about this yet. If the safeties we have in place are released, we will decimate our doctors, nurses and supporting staff.

This virus does affect everyone. A 29 year old nurse, fit, healthy and a marathon runner succumbed to Corona two days ago. One minute she was fine, the next she was fighting for her life with double pneumonia in the ICU and ultimately died from complications with her heart. She was tested for Corona and her test came back negative but it is believed to be a false negative as she was a textbook case of Corona with no complicating factors. How do I know this? This lovely young woman is the daughter of a friend. She died alone in the ICU because they could not be with her. Unimaginable for her and equally so for her family.

So when some of you say yeah I want to get it and get it over with or it's not worth the damage to the economy I think you all need to take a step back and realize these attitudes hurt our health care workers who are working under abominable circumstances already. Why should they continue to risk themselves and their families if we are unwilling to sacrifice?
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Pelayo
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In reply to bay fan • 9:35a, 3/24/20
AG
I hear you, but in her case she would have contracted the virus at some point and died. She didn't pass away because of shortages in critical care.

70% of my nursing and medical assistant staff will not work right now and they all are very low risk. Nightmare.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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bay fan
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In reply to Pelayo • 9:57a, 3/24/20
S
Point is that by not sticking with social distancing and shelter in place long enough to matter your hospital/ER will be over run putting health care providers at increased risk. It's not right they bare the burden for people/government unwilling to do the only thing that may reduce their risk to any extent.

I can't not criticize medical professionals who don't want to work without being able to employ contamination guidelines they would be punished to not follow when a highly contagious, dangerous virus was NOT surging through the population.
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bay fan
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In reply to Pelayo • 9:58a, 3/24/20
S
Pretty hard to be lower risk then a 29 year old marathon runner now dead.
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AggieAuditor
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10:09a, 3/24/20
AG
Bay - Terrible to hear that such a young woman was taken so soon.

I think the problem you are going to face is you are now very closely connected to someone who lost their life to this monster. Saving another life now is all that will matter and anyone who says otherwise will be a monster in your eyes.

The path I'm afraid we're going down is the idea of not caring how many people we lose in the future because of our decisions today. If we can save 10 now and it will cost us 100 in the future, we'll do it - because we see the 10 RIGHT NOW and it hurts us. We won't ever see or know about the 100, so our consciences won't be burdened.

My hope is that our leaders and decision makers DO consider the 100 and try to strike a balance as best they can. I fear that if we say we just want to save people now regardless of the future toll, we'll end up saving 10 to lose 500 or 1000 or 10000 in the future.
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bay fan
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In reply to AggieAuditor • 10:22a, 3/24/20
S
This is why I made it specific to health care workers and Pelayo basically made my point for me. If I were a health care worker already being asked to reuse things I'd been trained my whole career to discard in hazardous waste and the country isn't willing to shelter in place, keep their kids inside or away from friends no matter how inconvenient and sacrifice themselves, why in the world would I as a health care worker continue to risk my life (in already unsafe conditions) and the lives of my own family?

We need to be willing to do our share to reduce the spread to help people putting their lives on the line.
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cone
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In reply to bay fan • 10:25a, 3/24/20
AG
where was she treating patients?

did she get it in the hospital?
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10:26a, 3/24/20
Victor Davis Hanson had a very thoughtful article touching this subject (not specifically healthcare workers but the economic consequences) this morning on National Review. It is on NR Plus so it might not yet be available for free.

Quote:
if the present economic somnolence continues, many Americans are going to sicken and die but from the economic virus in reaction to the coronavirus.
The Logic of Pottersville
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cone
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10:27a, 3/24/20
AG
it's nuts how there are no deaths under 30 in Italy yet i've read of a least a couple of anecdotes here on this site
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Pelayo
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In reply to bay fan • 10:33a, 3/24/20
AG
bay fan said:
Pretty hard to be lower risk then a 29 year old marathon runner now dead.
Did you not get the point that she would have ultimately died once she contracted the virus? As will many healthcare providers. Me included. It's the field I chose and I accept the risk.

The goal is to minimize the wave of critical cases showing up at once, not to make sure healthy people don't get the virus. That's pretty much a foregone conclusion.

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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nonameag99
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10:33a, 3/24/20
It is like when cops get killed in the line of duty, it is terrible, but you decided to be a cop so you DO YOUR JOB

You want to be a health care worker, you die for something at work, it sucks, but you DO YOUR JOB
The Aggie number specified has already been linked with another TexAgs account.
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Pelayo
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In reply to bay fan • 10:37a, 3/24/20
AG
bay fan said:
This is why I made it specific to health care workers and Pelayo basically made my point for me. If I were a health care worker already being asked to reuse things I'd been trained my whole career to discard in hazardous waste and the country isn't willing to shelter in place, keep their kids inside or away from friends no matter how inconvenient and sacrifice themselves, why in the world would I as a health care worker continue to risk my life (in already unsafe conditions) and the lives of my own family?

We need to be willing to do our share to reduce the spread to help people putting their lives on the line.
And if there is no one at the hospital will take care of you because they don't want to risk exposure because they are having to reuse PPE?

The measures we are taking will be minimally effective if everyone doesn't follow them. And we don't have the gumption to enforce them.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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bay fan
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In reply to cone • 10:37a, 3/24/20
S
Cone, it is likely she got it at work, simple odds for a nurse. Because of the sensitivity of the situation I am not comfortable posting specifics.

Our health care providers are working under terrible conditions and stories like this will become common I am afraid.
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cone
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In reply to bay fan • 10:39a, 3/24/20
AG
did she not have adequate PPE?

also, did she really not have a progression of symptoms, or was she in the ICU for an extended period of time?

what state was this?
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88planoAg
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10:46a, 3/24/20
AG
To me it isn't about health care workers not showing up, necessarily.

It is about finite resources and using them up.

We have finite and vanishing numbers of PPE.

We have finite hospital beds, especially ICU beds.

And finally, we have a finite # of health care professionals.

We can make more PPE. Eventually.

We can creatively shift hospital resources like beds, change surgical suites to ICU facilities, etc.

Eventually we will have more ventilators (maybe?)

But the other resource is medical professionals. If they get sick, they are out for Xweeks. There are retired people coming back into service, but those, again, are finite.

We must protect our resources.
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Bocephus
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In reply to nonameag99 • 10:47a, 3/24/20
AG
nonameag99 said:
It is like when cops get killed in the line of duty, it is terrible, but you decided to be a cop so you DO YOUR JOB

You want to be a health care worker, you die for something at work, it sucks, but you DO YOUR JOB


The job is not to die. Accepting risks does not mean it is your job to die.
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bay fan
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In reply to Pelayo • 10:50a, 3/24/20
S
Pelayo said:
bay fan said:
Pretty hard to be lower risk then a 29 year old marathon runner now dead.
Did you not get the point that she would have ultimately died once she contracted the virus? As will many healthcare providers. Me included. It's the field I chose and I accept the risk.

The goal is to minimize the wave of critical cases showing up at once, not to make sure healthy people don't get the virus. That's pretty much a foregone conclusion.

I think it's you that didn't get my point. If the public does not do their share and your ER's and hospitals are over run, MORE health care workers will get it then necessary. I am not suggesting we can stop this, only that by slowing the growth we can HELP health care workers in that fashion. If we as a country are unwilling to do what we can,(stay home) why should healthcare workers be expected to take additional risk with exponential numbers of cases and N95 masks in some government warehouse rather then protecting them?
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fig96
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In reply to nonameag99 • 10:50a, 3/24/20
AG
nonameag99 said:
It is like when cops get killed in the line of duty, it is terrible, but you decided to be a cop so you DO YOUR JOB

You want to be a health care worker, you die for something at work, it sucks, but you DO YOUR JOB
Yeah, gonna have to say those are just slightly disproportionate risks there.
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tysker
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11:03a, 3/24/20
AG
Quote:
She was tested for Corona and her test came back negative but it is believed to be a false negative as she was a textbook case of Corona with no complicating factors.
Considering >90% of tests are coming back as negative, what is the current false negative rate?
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bay fan
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In reply to cone • 11:04a, 3/24/20
S
cone said:
did she not have adequate PPE?

also, did she really not have a progression of symptoms, or was she in the ICU for an extended period of time?

what state was this?
I have no reason to believe she did not have adequate PPE based upon where she worked and how early on this is.

I am saying if we don't slow the spread other health care providers will not and this is an example of how dangerous this is even under the best of circumstances.

She did have a progression. She felt sick enough as a nurse understanding both her symptoms and the current need to avoid the ER to go to an ER while away from home on Tuesday. She was seen and sent away to isolate. (Fair given her age and excellent health). She was sick enough to be admitted on Thursday. Her oxygen saturation was poor and lead to intubation by Saturday. She passed on Sunday.

It was not Texas, California or NY. She was a young, ridiculously healthy nurse not working in an epicenter type location. As a population, we owe it to those caring for us to do our share and STAY HOME and keep our kids home with us to slow the spread.
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plain_o_llama
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In reply to 88planoAg • 11:40a, 3/24/20
I've thought a lot about this because I'm hearing first hand the wailing about the economic damage being worse than the loss of life. Things like people costing out $10T of economic loss vs 1,000,000 deaths and arguing $10,000,000 a death isn't worth it.

I've supported the "Flatten the Curve" approach because it buys time.
We potentially lower the death toll. We get feedback on some of these treatments. Time potentially lets us improve the PPE situation and the drug availability. This does not appear to be a persuasive argument to many.

My guess is they FEEL little threat from the virus but they FEEL signifiant economic pain and personal anxiety over the future. They want to relieve the pain now and perceive a "back to work" strategy as the answer.

Now contrast that with the medical professional. They are experiencing real consequences of the virus and/or FEELING real anxiety about the situation. How should they react to their circumstances?

I have been thinking in terms of this being set up as a struggle between the strategies:
"Flatten the Curve" vs "Back to Work".

To me, there is an implied social contract with the Medical Professionals. They expect a certain level of support and have expressed that. Shared sacrifice. We will certainly debate and disagree over what is appropriate in that.

To the degree people want to argue it is all a "Business Decision" I expect the Medical Professions to respond similarly. If I am a hospital administrator I would draw up plans that optimize for my business. I suspect that would look like refusing a lot of treatment for Covid patients as too costly in terms of risk to my staff and resources.

Palliative and Hospice care only and outside the ERs and the Hospital might be a good Business Decision.
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jeffdjohnson
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In reply to bay fan • 11:57a, 3/24/20
bay fan said:
So when some of you say yeah I want to get it and get it over with or it's not worth the damage to the economy I think you all need to take a step back and realize these attitudes hurt our health care workers who are working under abominable circumstances already. Why should they continue to risk themselves and their families if we are unwilling to sacrifice?



There is no economy while this virus continues to exist with no immunity or treatment. This is not a choice being made by the government or the people.
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cone
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In reply to bay fan • 11:59a, 3/24/20
AG
this is tragic

I hope they test for covid post mortem

it's important that she get represented in the group afflicted
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Tmoneyag99
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In reply to bay fan • 12:04p, 3/24/20
AG
bay fan said:
Point is that by not sticking with social distancing and shelter in place long enough to matter your hospital/ER will be over run putting health care providers at increased risk. It's not right they bare the burden for people/government unwilling to do the only thing that may reduce their risk to any extent.

I can't not criticize medical professionals who don't want to work without being able to employ contamination guidelines they would be punished to not follow when a highly contagious, dangerous virus was NOT surging through the population.
It's a delicate balance to achieve.

No "shelter in place' results in our health care being over run and massive numbers of people dying due to lack of care. We would probably have way worse fatalities. People that die from this will die relatively quickly.


Complete national shut down and our economy crashes. People are out of jobs and crime goes through the roof. You watch children and elderly slowly starve to death. Then we become venuzuela.



There are no "good choices" in this circumstance. Just the Least bad. I mean if we give our economy precidence then you'll have so many people die or on sick leave I can't help but think that is going to have a pretty large impact on our economy.

When a company has half it's work force out for a month due to the virus vs having everyone work from home and not having the health care system collapse.

Trump and our leaders are walking a tight rope for sure. It is probably wise for all of us to do the same but ultimately stop panicing.
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fightingfarmer09
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12:09p, 3/24/20
What do you say to the self inflicted gunshot death that comes into ER when you chose a max 3% chance of death vs a 100% chance of financial ruin?

Hell if he gets sick and is in financial ruin, what how will you deal with the downward spiral despite "saving him". He can't pay for his care, he has no financial status, and statistically destined for homelessness or suicide. What if the cure is a nationalized healthcare industry? How many doctors will trade these short risks for the long term destruction of their industry.

These are not easy decisions.

It's a tough choice, but I've been long term unemployed. I have seen my family suffer. I have sat in a doctors office knowing they were going to bill me and knowing I couldn't pay. I have no intention of going back to that point in my life, regardless of what the doctors say. Take precautions, but you cannot stop the economic engine.
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Keegan99
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12:13p, 3/24/20
AG
Aggie friend of mine (who had a 4.0 in BIMS - positively brilliant) is a doctor in another state.

She wondered why there was / is no plan to infect a volunteer battalion of docs and nurses, let them recover, have immunity, and then let them run the show.

Crazy? Possibly. But I thought it was an interesting approach. She thought there would be no shortage of volunteers.

(In fairness, we probably already missed our window to do this.)
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bay fan
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In reply to Keegan99 • 12:35p, 3/24/20
S
If there are many more stories like mine, 29 year old, exceptionally healthy marathon running nurse dead, those volunteers will and should think twice.
Also that window is closed, this is upon us.
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bay fan
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In reply to cone • 12:38p, 3/24/20
S
cone said:
this is tragic

I hope they test for covid post mortem

it's important that she get represented in the group afflicted
I couldn't agree more.
Just knowing someone in the category who is not supposed to die really changes my views. It makes me worry for our medical providers and understanding the sacrifices they are making.
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bay fan
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In reply to jeffdjohnson • 12:41p, 3/24/20
S
jeffdjohnson said:
bay fan said:
So when some of you say yeah I want to get it and get it over with or it's not worth the damage to the economy I think you all need to take a step back and realize these attitudes hurt our health care workers who are working under abominable circumstances already. Why should they continue to risk themselves and their families if we are unwilling to sacrifice?



There is no economy while this virus continues to exist with no immunity or treatment. This is not a choice being made by the government or the people.
I agree. It's human nature to think we can control things we can not control. This country would be best served to focus on what we actually can control, ourselves and our actions with regard to how they effect others.
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cone
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In reply to bay fan • 12:41p, 3/24/20
AG
it's still quite an outlier

given that there have be zero deaths so far under 30 in Italy
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Halconblack
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In reply to Keegan99 • 12:44p, 3/24/20
AG
I was wondering the same thing. My take on it was slightly different. I was wondering why the Armed Forces and National Guard didn't do it. The population there is generally healthier than the average medical staff and more willing to do it (No offense to the civilian medical professionals please. I was in the service for over a decade). The military augmentees wouldn't have to "run the show" but they could be the hands and arms in the ICU's and Covid 19 Wards.
v/r
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bay fan
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In reply to cone • 12:44p, 3/24/20
S
I certainly hope so. Odd to me I am the person who knows the mother of this young woman. I doubt anyone wants to get out info on medical professionals and increase worries and panic. It may come later.
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cone
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In reply to bay fan • 12:47p, 3/24/20
AG
so you think the Italians are covering it up?
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Pumpkinhead
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12:53p, 3/24/20
AG
The economy is significantly damaged by this regardless of what happens at this point. Just a question of the degree of damage. Even if the government said tomorrow that non-essential businesses are open domestically, you can go to your local hair saloon now, the borders are still all closed (even with Canada and Europe) and much of the rest of the world is shut down. There is no way large sporting events can happen anytime soon. The entire airline and tourism industry is scorched earth and the demand for cruise ships or visiting Disneyland (or even crowded restaurants) is going to be greatly reduced for quite some time, nor will business related tradeshows/conferences/travel be eager to ramp back up anytime soon.

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bay fan
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In reply to cone • 12:56p, 3/24/20
S
cone said:
so you think the Italians are covering it up?
I am not a conspiracy theory type of person. I fall more along the lines they are struggling to keep up with the health care crisis they are confronting and tracking isn't as defined as it likely will come to be when the worst is over.
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