So what happened to table G?

in fact, you can probably come up with a good list of places where one person infects multiple others (keeping the Rt above 1):

subway cars
buses
sitdown restaurants
live music venues
sporting events
parties
intensely grouped outdoor gatherings - small town parade not so much, mardi gras yes
worship services
gyms (lot of hard breathing and exertion)
the households of someone infected
cube farm offices

(that said, high mask compliance would really help with mass transit, office work, even worship services)

and likewise a place where you wouldn't expect spread if masking and hygiene precautions (and surface disinfection protocols) were observed:

fast food or takeway restaurants
general retail
big box stores
groceries
outdoor parks and recreation

Quote:

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The staff weren't sitting in the line of fire for 45 minutes +

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So you need 45 minutes + to become infected? That takes away the notion that public transportation is a vector, no? Most people even in places like NYC arent physically on the bus/subway for more than 45 mins at a time and next to same people.

tysker said:

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Quote:

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The staff weren't sitting in the line of fire for 45 minutes +

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So you need 45 minutes + to become infected? That takes away the notion that public transportation is a vector, no? Most people even in places like NYC arent physically on the bus/subway for more than 45 mins at a time and next to same people.

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if you're living and working in Manhattan, sure

if you're in an outer borough coming into the city, you're absolutely sharing those cars for long periods of time

and look where in NYC they got hardest hit

Quote:

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Do we keep letting these types of situations keep us from moving forward?

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does moving forward as an economy require sitdown dining?

are we that overleveraged?

cone said:

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in fact, you can probably come up with a good list of places where one person infects multiple others (keeping the Rt above 1):

subway cars
buses
sitdown restaurants
live music venues
sporting events
parties
intensely grouped outdoor gatherings - small town parade not so much, mardi gras yes
worship services
gyms (lot of hard breathing and exertion)
the households of someone infected
cube farm offices

(that said, high mask compliance would really help with mass transit, office work, even worship services)

and likewise a place where you wouldn't expect spread if masking and hygiene precautions (and surface disinfection protocols) were observed:

fast food or takeway restaurants
general retail
big box stores
groceries
outdoor parks and recreation

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While certainly possible, currently clusters arent coming from any of you're listed locations:

https://www.kxan.com/news/coronavirus/austin-public-health-investigating-multiple-covid-19-clusters-8-involve-senior-living-communities/

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Of the nine confirmed clusters, eight clusters have been identified at senior living communities or long-term care facilities including nursing homes, hospices, assisted living facilities, independent living centers, skilled nursing centers and intermediate care facilities.

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https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/dallas-county-reports-63-new-covid-19-cases-20th-death/2347788/

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Huang said there are also clusters of the virus at senior care centers around Dallas County, including Skyline Nursing Center and Brentwood Place in Dallas.

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oh, that's my bad

yeah, senior living centers are death traps

tysker said:

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Quote:

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The staff weren't sitting in the line of fire for 45 minutes +

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So you need 45 minutes + to become infected? That takes away the notion that public transportation is a vector, no? Most people even in places like NYC arent physically on the bus/subway for more than 45 mins at a time and next to same people.

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I used 45 minutes because that's the minimum amount of time those people were around each other. It doesn't mean that's the minimum amount of time it takes to become infected.

People in the subway are much, much closer together than people at a restaurant so you would expect the amount of time required to become infected to be less. The bus driver in Detroit was coughed on directly 3 times by a lady not wearing a mask, made an angry video about it and then was dead 2 weeks later.

The waitstaff in the restaurant was coming and going, lingering for what, maybe 2 or 3 minutes at most? That would limit their exposure for when the infected person was talking loudly, coughing or sneezing.

There is a massive bit of randomness mixed in with the science. It's all about viral load when you happen to be exposed.

cone said:

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tysker said:

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Quote:

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The staff weren't sitting in the line of fire for 45 minutes +

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So you need 45 minutes + to become infected? That takes away the notion that public transportation is a vector, no? Most people even in places like NYC arent physically on the bus/subway for more than 45 mins at a time and next to same people.

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if you're living and working in Manhattan, sure

if you're in an outer borough coming into the city, you're absolutely sharing those cars for long periods of time

and look where in NYC they got hardest hit

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While there are long commutes on trains and buses in NYC most are still under 45 mins. Its the walking to/from the station and making connections (switching trains) that add to the commute time. Which means, by definition, you're not near the same people. I say this as a former NYC resident. Being in the 'line of fire for 45+ minutes' would be people that live north of the city, on Long Island or in NJ.

cone said:

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Quote:

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Do we keep letting these types of situations keep us from moving forward?

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does moving forward as an economy require sitdown dining?

are we that overleveraged?

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Why not! I'm ready. It's kinda like bungee jumping. You gotta let go at some point and hope the chord catches you.

Disclaimer: I've never bungee jumped so take that for what its worth!

cone said:

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also, like idiots, they ran fewer trains during the shutdown

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I dont have any idea how reductions may have added to capacity and density but MTA always runs less trains at times when demand is lower and there is less staff to run trains efficiently and safely.

They have 2,400 employees out with the virus and 68 have lost their lives.

understood

but less demand is not a signal for fewer trains during a pandemic spread via close quarters

if you run fewer trains because the employees are sick or unsafe, then that's one thing. but from what i understand, that lagged the initial orders.

PJYoung said:

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They have 2,400 employees out with the virus and 68 have lost their lives.

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Good Lord....

cone said:

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it's becoming more clear that outdoors and even common surfaces might not be the primary deal. it's being indoors with pre-symptomatic cases for extended periods of time.

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This is my (evolving) takeaway.

Can closed spaces possibly be dangerous?
NO < 70yo
YES >70yo

This is also bad for group exercise classes and churches and sport events.

LEJ said:

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cone said:

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it's becoming more clear that outdoors and even common surfaces might not be the primary deal. it's being indoors with pre-symptomatic cases for extended periods of time.

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This is my (evolving) takeaway.

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And why we will probably be seeing mandatory mask regulations on indoor areas for awhile.

This was all just a theoretical model though wasn't it? Or did this actually happen?

Of course the restaurant study has holes in it, but every study I've seen does so far. Either too small, poor test quality, etc.

The point was look at the study, and look at the places which have extremely high rates of infection and it makes sense.

We can get people back to work in many cases, but need to limit these types of indoor, close quarter interactions, especially where you can't wear masks. Of course you can get the virus from less than 45 mins of direct exposure <6 ft apart no mask. Of course people will still get the virus, and infection rate will increase if we start to open things up (although hopefully still well below hospital capacity threshold).

It's unfortunate for restaurant & travel industry, but many other industries likely can get back to a higher level of functionality with some modifications to the point we aren't crushing our whole economy.

case of transmission on a bus in china

BTHOthatguy said:

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74Ag1 said:

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Put UV light in AC return and downstream of evaporator/blower.

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I sell UV lights. UV lights in the duct work do nothing to clean the air. They are for treating surfaces. PCO's are good for cleaning the air. PHO's actually pump hydroperoxides into the air, these are the best.

All of this is moot because you can't buy any of them because the manufacturers are out of stock.

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It doesn't "clean" the air but it definitely would disinfect it kill live particles like virus and bacteria. This is how a lot of public water systems get virus killing credit if you can't get enough contact tine with more conventional methods such as chlorine exposure. Now I don't know how residential grade UV HVAC systems are designed, but passing air through a UV chamber would work unless the UV bulb is not intense enough, the air is moving to fast, or a virus is "hidden" in dust particles. So in theory it would work, but not sure they are designed robust enough.

Do you happen to know the typical speed of air moving through the duct? How often do the bulbs need to be cleaned?

jpb1999 said:

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BTHOthatguy said:

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74Ag1 said:

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Put UV light in AC return and downstream of evaporator/blower.

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I sell UV lights. UV lights in the duct work do nothing to clean the air. They are for treating surfaces. PCO's are good for cleaning the air. PHO's actually pump hydroperoxides into the air, these are the best.

All of this is moot because you can't buy any of them because the manufacturers are out of stock.

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It doesn't "clean" the air but it definitely would disinfect it kill live particles like virus and bacteria. This is how a lot of public water systems get virus killing credit if you can't get enough contact tine with more conventional methods such as chlorine exposure. Now I don't know how residential grade UV HVAC systems are designed, but passing air through a UV chamber would work unless the UV bulb is not intense enough, the air is moving to fast, or a virus is "hidden" in dust particles. So in theory it would work, but not sure they are designed robust enough.

Do you happen to know the typical speed of air moving through the duct? How often do the bulbs need to be cleaned?

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Typically around 1,500 CFM.

Carlo4 said:

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What I'm 100% in favor of is the return of drive in movies.

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When we lived in AZ, the wife had a Honda Element. It was the perfect vehicle for drive-ins and we went all the time for double features. Plus, you can bring your own booze and if the movie sucks, well, you can do other stuff.

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That's an embarrassingly bad attempt at science. They had an opinion and simply theorized that they were right with no way of proving it. Anyone who would use that crap as a basis for any policy is a moron.

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How this comment only has two likes is shocking to me.

evestor1 said:

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Quote:

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That's an embarrassingly bad attempt at science. They had an opinion and simply theorized that they were right with no way of proving it. Anyone who would use that crap as a basis for any policy is a moron.

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How this comment only has two likes is shocking to me.

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I hooked it up with #3.

From the looks of how the he the a/c units in the diagram they are mini splits. There are no ducts to install UV lights in.