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A COVID test can prove, reasonably, whether or not they had COVID and symptoms presented prior to death could reasonably be assigned as a respiratory issue.

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eidetic78 said:

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BusterAg said:

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Levitt, nobel proze data scientist, has a good point on the fact that the death rate reports that we are seeing are unreliable because of how COVID deaths are being recorded.

The fact that the CDC is reporting everyone that dies with COVID as a COVID death, whether or not the virus was a contributing factor, is EXTREMELY troubling. Add in the factor that a lot of the people dying WITH COVID were extremely vulnerable, and might have died anyway, and I just don't trust the data at all.

I am interested if anyone has seen any analysis that tries to work out this difference?

Let's set aside anecdote cases of younger people who went into a cytokine storm and died expectantly. Those cases happened and are happening. That is bad. But, it's tough to tell what % of the cases were actually like this, as opposed to dying with a gunshot would while having COVID.

For example, have we seen any reporting on the number of people that died while on ventilators compared to overall cases? The number of people that died due to upper respiratory infections that had COVID compared to average deaths of upper respiratory infections?

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You can view the CDC's own advice here

I'd be interested to see a single gunshot wound death that has covid listed as an underlying cause. Assuming this isn't some scenario where they were in the hospital recovering from a GSW, contracted covid there, and died. This just seems like hyperbole otherwise.

Deaths are reported as having an immediate cause followed by any underlying causes and any comorbidities. It's up to the individual physician to determine, for any given covid positive patient that dies, whether that disease contributed to their death. If that's their opinion, then it will be listed as an underlying cause.

If someone is 115 years old, has every comorbidity under the sun, contracts covid and dies from respiratory failure, how should that be reported?

The CDC only reports data supplied to them by the states. If covid is listed as an underlying cause, what do you think they should do with that information?

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If you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means technically even if you died of a clear alternate cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it's still listed as a COVID death. So, everyone who's listed as a COVID death doesn't mean that that was the cause of the death, but they had COVID at the time of the death

Source: https://week.com/2020/04/20/idph-director-explains-how-covid-deaths-are-classified/

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The chart below uses data from EuroMOMO, a network of epidemiologists who collect weekly reports on deaths from all causes in 24 European countries, covering 350m people. These figures show that, compared with a historical baseline of 2009-19, Europe has suffered some deadly flu seasons since 2016 but that the death toll this year from covid-19 is far greater. Overall, the number of excess deaths across the continent since March is about 170,000. Though most of those victims have been older than 65, the number of deaths among Europeans aged 45-64 was 40% higher than usual in early April.

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Complete Idiot said:

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BusterAg said:

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A COVID test can prove, reasonably, whether or not they had COVID and symptoms presented prior to death could reasonably be assigned as a respiratory issue.

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I would much more prefer to rely on the Dr.'s professional opinion than just assume cause of death is COVID.

Maybe you capture both statistics? 1) Did the patient have COVID? 2) Does the Dr., in his professional opinion, believe COVID was the cause of death or a major contributing factor?

We don't have data set #2. We have to assume that data set #1 is higher than data set #2, because we know that there are at least some gunshot wound cases that got counted as COVID deaths. I'm just looking for analysis from clever data scientists that are looking at ways to estimate data set #2.

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I think we do have the data you are referring to, but whether or not you or I should believe I guess is up for debate or opinion . This is where the CDC keeps its flu/Covid/Pneumonia data, as well as death burden compared to expected deaths (historically determined I guess): https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm

I also think doctors/facilities do have to complete a death report, and they do have to indicate a cause of death. Sometimes these reports can lag and not be taken into account in a timely fashion.

I have to admit when you mention "gunshot wounds counted as Covid deaths" I kind of tune out, it's hard to find a valid news source that would support that position in any statistically significant way. Of the 130K US deaths attributed to COVID, how many also had a gunshot wound?

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