Coming back around on "surfaces" spread...

4,032 Views | 15 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by BiochemAg97
Aust Ag
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AG
Seems like I remember hearing a month or two ago that the only real way that the virus was being spread is through airborne transmission. But a friend of mine noted the other day that paper towels and Clorox were still sold out at the local grocery store. And when my kid goes back to school this next week, they are being told to wipe down all the time. Wash their hands all the time, etc.

So what's the latest thinking here, is it really mostly airborne (hence heavy mask orders), or can you get it just as easy from door handle? If it's the former, then why still all the emphasis on wiping,cleaning, etc?
Keegan99
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AG
There is scant indication that fomites are a significant source of transmission.

From The Lancet:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7333993/

But panic is a hell of a drug.
AggieAuditor
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AG
Businesses are having to spend a fortune on magic fogging companies to put a "virus barrier" on all surfaces, despite the evidence against surface transmission.

Agree with the poster above. Fear and panic.

tysker
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What will these cleaning protocols do to our immune system over time? Is it a good thing that everything is so clean?
Keegan99
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AG
It's certainly not good for children.

Correlation is not causation, but I do not think the environments kids exist in today and the proliferation of things like nut allergies are unrelated.

(When I was a kid, I went to a 5A high school but didn't encounter my first classmate with a nut allergy until A&M. Nowadays one is hard pressed to find a single elementary school classroom without one. It strains credulity to believe that such a sudden change in prevalence inside of one generation is not due to behavioral and environmental factors.)

bigtruckguy3500
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I was under the impression that droplet transmission has been considered the primary mode of transmission (similar to the regular flu), after the first couple months when we had no idea. There have been some examples of possible airborne spread related to A/C systems and what not, but overall that hasn't been proven as widespread.

Also, there's a big difference between droplets flying through the air and landing on someone and actual airborne spread. Airborne spread means the viral particles are floating in the air like dust. Droplet spread means they're suspended in droplets that typically fall down and land on stuff pretty quickly, unless you're very close to a person.

Droplets land on surfaces and people touch those surfaces then their nose. Masks don't stop airborne spread. They can stop droplet spread. The only way to stop airborne spread would be by the use of an N95 type mask that was correctly fitted to each individual person.


Also, yes, kids need to eat more dirt. The prevalence of allergies, seasonal or otherwise, in 3rd world countries compared with the US is rather surprising. I'm a big believe in the hygiene hypothesis. Going to feed my kids dirt on a regular basis.
GE
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AG
Keegan99 said:

It's certainly not good for children.

Correlation is not causation, but I do not think the environments kids exist in today and the proliferation of things like nut allergies are unrelated.

(When I was a kid, I went to a 5A high school but didn't encounter my first classmate with a nut allergy until A&M. Nowadays one is hard pressed to find a single elementary school classroom without one. It strains credulity to believe that such a sudden change in prevalence inside of one generation is not due to behavioral and environmental factors.)


Coddling of the American Mind addressed the nut allergy thing. Cites studies that parents who shield their children from nuts when they are very young are more likely to have children with major issues later since the immune system hasnt learned how to deal with it.
ttuhscaggie
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AG
The doctors across the street spend ten minutes wiping down every food delivery container before bringing it into the house. I sat there and watched them the other day as I was working out in my garage. It was something to see. When we didn't know anything about the virus in March and April, ok. But I mean come on guys, it's September. We know how this thing is spread by now. Are you really gonna wipe down every single ketchup packet that comes through the door? Do they feel safer after that? I saw their little kid standing there watching them too, scratching his head like wtf is mom and dad doing?
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Marcus Aurelius
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AG
Contact transmission is not a major mechanism of infectivity.
BiochemAg97
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bigtruckguy3500 said:

I was under the impression that droplet transmission has been considered the primary mode of transmission (similar to the regular flu), after the first couple months when we had no idea. There have been some examples of possible airborne spread related to A/C systems and what not, but overall that hasn't been proven as widespread.

Also, there's a big difference between droplets flying through the air and landing on someone and actual airborne spread. Airborne spread means the viral particles are floating in the air like dust. Droplet spread means they're suspended in droplets that typically fall down and land on stuff pretty quickly, unless you're very close to a person.

Droplets land on surfaces and people touch those surfaces then their nose. Masks don't stop airborne spread. They can stop droplet spread. The only way to stop airborne spread would be by the use of an N95 type mask that was correctly fitted to each individual person.


Also, yes, kids need to eat more dirt. The prevalence of allergies, seasonal or otherwise, in 3rd world countries compared with the US is rather surprising. I'm a big believe in the hygiene hypothesis. Going to feed my kids dirt on a regular basis.
Droplet transmission can be either inhaled or fall out of the air. He combination of masks, 6 ft, and <15 min is about preventing the inhalation of droplets.

The original studies that suggested the virus was long lived on surfaces involved drying the virus on the surface and then wetting the surface to get the virus off. They used enough liquid to simulate licking. While droplets that have fallen on a surface should dry pretty quickly, most of us don't go around licking random surfaces.
jamesf
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Quote:

Coddling of the American Mind addressed the nut allergy thing. Cites studies that parents who shield their children from nuts when they are very young are more likely to have children with major issues later since the immune system hasnt learned how to deal with it.


Our pediatrician had us "introduce" peanuts to our kids at a very early age for this reason. Basically just rub some peanut butter on their gums every once in a while.
rojo_ag
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Since the onset, I have not been one to be overly cautious about surfaces. My wife on the other hand, would spray down Amazon boxes with Lysol and then leave them on the front porch for a day just in case. When we ran out of Lysol, packages stayed out for three days minimum.

Students come F2F on Tuesday. At the end of each class period, students will be required to wipe down their desks on the way out. How many wipes will our campus use in a school year?

Darn, I should have bought stock in P&G in March. Up 30% since March 23rd.
Philip J Fry
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AG
But this is something Birk absolutely harped on in the early days. Back then it was almost certainly to be spread by touching common objects. It really seems like more and more, we've been duped out of our way of life.
texan12
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bigtruckguy3500
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Philip J Fry said:

But this is something Birk absolutely harped on in the early days. Back then it was almost certainly to be spread by touching common objects. It really seems like more and more, we've been duped out of our way of life.
I really don't think here intent was to "dupe" anyone. This was a brand new virus that no one knew anything about. There was research being done quickly, of various quality, and all over the place. Eventually the vectors will add up to a common direction, but initially they will seem to point all kinds of directions.

texan12 said:

BiochemAg97 said:

Droplet transmission can be either inhaled or fall out of the air. He combination of masks, 6 ft, and <15 min is about preventing the inhalation of droplets.

The original studies that suggested the virus was long lived on surfaces involved drying the virus on the surface and then wetting the surface to get the virus off. They used enough liquid to simulate licking. While droplets that have fallen on a surface should dry pretty quickly, most of us don't go around licking random surfaces.


Are you serious? Why even conduct an experiment if it's not even relevant to the general population? What a **** show

Science works in increments. Not everything will be immediately applicable to the general population. And people don't know what science will be used to further other science, and what will fizzle out. Car manufacturers make concept cars that'll never see a showroom floor. Drug manufacturers test thousands of compounds that'll never make it beyond the earliest stages. You don't know what information will be useful in the future.

And specifically to the concept of "enough liquid to simulate licking," I think BiochemAg used that term to paint a picture. I don't think the researchers were there trying to actually simulate licking. They were just likely trying to test viability of the virus on various surfaces, and needed a transfer media to pick up virus after it had been sitting on surfaces.

To further that point, I don't think they answered the question as to whether they were picking up infectious particles, or if they were merely picking up enough residual viral RNA to detect the virus. Perhaps someone researched if they could culture the virus from those surfaces, but all the early research I saw was more about detecting it, not culturing it.
buffalo chip
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S
Good points, all. Thanks.
BiochemAg97
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AG
texan12 said:

BiochemAg97 said:

bigtruckguy3500 said:

I was under the impression that droplet transmission has been considered the primary mode of transmission (similar to the regular flu), after the first couple months when we had no idea. There have been some examples of possible airborne spread related to A/C systems and what not, but overall that hasn't been proven as widespread.

Also, there's a big difference between droplets flying through the air and landing on someone and actual airborne spread. Airborne spread means the viral particles are floating in the air like dust. Droplet spread means they're suspended in droplets that typically fall down and land on stuff pretty quickly, unless you're very close to a person.

Droplets land on surfaces and people touch those surfaces then their nose. Masks don't stop airborne spread. They can stop droplet spread. The only way to stop airborne spread would be by the use of an N95 type mask that was correctly fitted to each individual person.


Also, yes, kids need to eat more dirt. The prevalence of allergies, seasonal or otherwise, in 3rd world countries compared with the US is rather surprising. I'm a big believe in the hygiene hypothesis. Going to feed my kids dirt on a regular basis.
Droplet transmission can be either inhaled or fall out of the air. He combination of masks, 6 ft, and <15 min is about preventing the inhalation of droplets.

The original studies that suggested the virus was long lived on surfaces involved drying the virus on the surface and then wetting the surface to get the virus off. They used enough liquid to simulate licking. While droplets that have fallen on a surface should dry pretty quickly, most of us don't go around licking random surfaces.


Are you serious? Why even conduct an experiment if it's not even relevant to the general population? What a **** show
I believe it is a standard way to test how long a virus can survive on a surface. However, like all "in vitro" studies, it doesn't necessarily translate to the real world.

Part of the problem is the way media reporting science. The media will report a flashy headline and present the science as proving something the science merely suggests is worthy of further study. Sometime media even reports a science paper as saying something while the authors conclude the exact opposite in the paper. It has been going on since long before COVID.
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