BiochemAg97 said:

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chickenfingers said:

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BiochemAg97 said:

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The key thing is once the vaccine is widely available, there is no justification for masks or lockdowns. If you don't like your risks, stay home or vaccinate, but the rest of America shouldn't have to cater to you just because you don't want to get a shot.

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There was no justification in the first place. If you don't want to get sick you can stay home. Have we all forgotten that and accepted lock downs?

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I completely agree with you. But the pro makes argument for wear a mask to protect others and your rights end where your virus infringes my rights also apply to vaccines. if you are vaccinated and immune, you can't spread the virus to others.

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How do those others get it if THEY are already vaccinated?

The_Fox said:

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BiochemAg97 said:

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chickenfingers said:

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BiochemAg97 said:

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The key thing is once the vaccine is widely available, there is no justification for masks or lockdowns. If you don't like your risks, stay home or vaccinate, but the rest of America shouldn't have to cater to you just because you don't want to get a shot.

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There was no justification in the first place. If you don't want to get sick you can stay home. Have we all forgotten that and accepted lock downs?

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I completely agree with you. But the pro makes argument for wear a mask to protect others and your rights end where your virus infringes my rights also apply to vaccines. if you are vaccinated and immune, you can't spread the virus to others.

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How do those others get it if THEY are already vaccinated?

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Well, there are always those who can't get vaccinated... immune compromised, etc. and it is unlikely to be 100% effective. We will have more and better data showing the effectiveness of the vaccine than we will ever for masks. but yes, you can't spread it if everyone is vaccinated and even if most are vaccinated, we get to herd immunity.

FWIW, I am against both the vaccine and mask mandates, but I am not against wearing masks or getting the vaccine.

BiochemAg97 said:

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The_Fox said:

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BiochemAg97 said:

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chickenfingers said:

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BiochemAg97 said:

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The key thing is once the vaccine is widely available, there is no justification for masks or lockdowns. If you don't like your risks, stay home or vaccinate, but the rest of America shouldn't have to cater to you just because you don't want to get a shot.

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There was no justification in the first place. If you don't want to get sick you can stay home. Have we all forgotten that and accepted lock downs?

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I completely agree with you. But the pro makes argument for wear a mask to protect others and your rights end where your virus infringes my rights also apply to vaccines. if you are vaccinated and immune, you can't spread the virus to others.

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How do those others get it if THEY are already vaccinated?

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Well, there are always those who can't get vaccinated... immune compromised, etc. and it is unlikely to be 100% effective. We will have more and better data showing the effectiveness of the vaccine than we will ever for masks. but yes, you can't spread it if everyone is vaccinated and even if most are vaccinated, we get to herd immunity.

FWIW, I am against both the vaccine and mask mandates, but I am not against wearing masks or getting the vaccine.

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Sounds like the immunocompromised might have to make a tough decision on whether or not to roll the dice and get the vaccine or not. Either way, their decision should not have any bearing on my choice of whether or not to get vaccinated.

It will be a not, just like I do not wear a mask.

ORAggieFan said:

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cone said:

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lol no f-ing way

good luck getting healthy people to take this experimental vaccine en masse

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You're an anti-vaxxer?

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Are you anti-science and anti established vaccine safety protocols?

cone said:

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it's got to be mandated cuz of the liability associated with reopening for corps

I still think there's going to be a lot of pushback tho, from non-vulnerable workers. It's going to require months of messaging to convince people it's safe to take.

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Want to know how a company loses a number of it's employees? Zero chance I will take a vaccine because my company "requires it"

BiochemAg97 said:

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amercer said:

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The vaccine only needs to be 50% effective to get approval. That's why companies (and government orgs) will mandate it.

My company has a kiosk that takes your temp and asks you COVID questions before you can get in the building. Then there's a nurse inside to test every employee on a bi weekly schedule.

You think when there at 50% efficacious vaccine available, they are just going to say: "make a responsible choice everyone! "

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That is a minimum. Might want to wait and see what the test data say before we freak out about 50% effective. I suspect it will be more than 50% effective, but you need a lot less statistical data to show that something that is say 80% effective is at least 50% effective. If you have an 80%+/-20% you know it is at least 50% effective, but if you have 80% and want to show at least 70%, your confidence interval needs to be +/-10% and that takes more data.

Oh, btw, flu vaccine In some years is as low as 20% effective. In the best years it is about 80% effective.

But at the end of the day, if you don't get the vaccine and get sick, that is on you. Polling suggests 1/3 won't get the vaccine... that means 2/3 get the vaccine (which would be a surprise to me because only about 50% get the flu vaccine).

Companies are about avoiding liability risk. Is there more risk of liability from forcing people to get the vaccine or from someone who doesn't get the vaccine getting sick. Pharma companies are shielded from vaccine injury lawsuits, but a company that forces employees to get it have no such protection. So, if you are forced to get a vaccine and suffer a perceived vaccine injury, do you go to the govt process for your vaccine injury claim with a small payout or do you go after your employer and hope to win the jury lottery?

Do govts mandate it? Yes, I think some states will. If Biden wins, I think we could see a nationwide mandate. Would companies prefer the govt mandate it? Probably because then they get the benefits of a mandate but none of the blame.

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Bill Gates is invested in the vaccine - you bet Biden makes it mandatory

TAMU1990 said:

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BiochemAg97 said:

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amercer said:

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The vaccine only needs to be 50% effective to get approval. That's why companies (and government orgs) will mandate it.

My company has a kiosk that takes your temp and asks you COVID questions before you can get in the building. Then there's a nurse inside to test every employee on a bi weekly schedule.

You think when there at 50% efficacious vaccine available, they are just going to say: "make a responsible choice everyone! "

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That is a minimum. Might want to wait and see what the test data say before we freak out about 50% effective. I suspect it will be more than 50% effective, but you need a lot less statistical data to show that something that is say 80% effective is at least 50% effective. If you have an 80%+/-20% you know it is at least 50% effective, but if you have 80% and want to show at least 70%, your confidence interval needs to be +/-10% and that takes more data.

Oh, btw, flu vaccine In some years is as low as 20% effective. In the best years it is about 80% effective.

But at the end of the day, if you don't get the vaccine and get sick, that is on you. Polling suggests 1/3 won't get the vaccine... that means 2/3 get the vaccine (which would be a surprise to me because only about 50% get the flu vaccine).

Companies are about avoiding liability risk. Is there more risk of liability from forcing people to get the vaccine or from someone who doesn't get the vaccine getting sick. Pharma companies are shielded from vaccine injury lawsuits, but a company that forces employees to get it have no such protection. So, if you are forced to get a vaccine and suffer a perceived vaccine injury, do you go to the govt process for your vaccine injury claim with a small payout or do you go after your employer and hope to win the jury lottery?

Do govts mandate it? Yes, I think some states will. If Biden wins, I think we could see a nationwide mandate. Would companies prefer the govt mandate it? Probably because then they get the benefits of a mandate but none of the blame.

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Bill Gates is invested in the vaccine - you bet Biden makes it mandatory

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I don't think it really matters to Bill G'S investment if It is mandatory or not. Trump has said it will be free to everyone who wants it (no way Biden and the free healthcare for all Dems back out of that deal) because Trump's Operation Warp Speed has prepurchased the doses. Getting people to take it only means the Feds don't have a lot of extra doses sitting in a warehouse at the end of this or otherwise paid for vaccine they aren't going to use.

amercer said:

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Schools and most employers (including the government) will require it.

I doubt we can supply enough for everyone until next fall.

IF we roll it out in an intelligent, coordinated manner (I know) then we could probably protect the most vulnerable by January. That plus the people who have already had it, those who have some natural immunity, and those who are at low risk mean that the pandemic phase probably ends early next year.

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Not sure that they can "require" it but I could be wrong. Schools do require immunizations but for things like the flu they do not and most of these are truly necessary. Plus, you get your immunizations as a baby and not as an adult, who has more choices and rights. Not saying I'm against the vaccine or that I wouldn't take it (I'm considered "at risk" as I take Remicade so I'll most likely go with my doctor's orders on this obviously) but just interested in how that would be legally allowed? What if the person has other health issues which preclude their taking the vaccine if there are side effects etc? It will be interesting if it does indeed come to that and people sue. Also, this is more of a general question, but if those afraid of getting the virus take the vaccine, why does it matter if their coworker doesn't? Aren't the vaccine takers protected at that point, so even if their co-worker OT class mate got Covid, it shouldn't matter. Or is that not how it works?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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Also, this is more of a general question, but if those afraid of getting the virus take the vaccine, why does it matter if their coworker doesn't? Aren't the vaccine takers protected at that point, so even if their co-worker OT class mate got Covid, it shouldn't matter. Or is that not how it works?

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If the vaccine is 100% effective, then you're right. Get it and ignore everyone else, because you can't catch it or spread it. If it's only 50% effective, then it makes a big difference if your coworker gets the vaccine.

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Ok. Makes sense. B/c I'm on Remicade which is an immunosuppressant, they recommend everyone in our household take the flu shot, and I know that many times it is only a certain % effective.