88planoAg said:

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Regarding the long term consequences for kids - 2 examples:

1. My son, junior in HS, has been in person since Aug 12. District has a choice for remote, initially 22% chose remote and now that % is much lower. But son has one friend who is absolutely terrified of covid. Won't come back to school. No health reasons that I know of. Admits to depression and feeling left out but doesn't want to die.

2. Band was supposed to turn in marching uniforms in February. Of the kids who haven't yet, just got an email from a HS senior who is totally e-learning. She hasn't been able to turn in her uniform due to anxiety. Absolutely covid related, she is too scared to come to school long enough to drop off her uniform.

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IMO, these two kids likely have bigger issues, things just manifested with a fear of covid.

You guys need to learn the difference between county and country. They are totally different words....

HowdyTexasAggies said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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TexasAggie008 said:

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Outdoor mask wearing is the worst of all of the covid virtue signals

It speaks volumes about the individual doing it

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What volumes does it speak about the individual wearing it?

Personally I think not everyone is trying to virtue signal. Not everyone that wears a mask or refrains from engaging in life as normal is living in fear. Some people that wear the mask outdoors may be fearful of a passing interaction, and may simply not know any better. Others may do it out of convenience. I frequently wear my mask walking outdoors from building to building, or driving short distances between places that require masks. I'm sure there are people that see me in my car wearing my mask by myself and are thinking I'm an idiot or I'm virtue signalling to random strangers, but I don't care.

I think people that get triggered by others wearing masks speaks volumes about them. J/k. But seriously, just move on and stop judging everyone.

Sorry for the rant.

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I'm not triggered, but think people that do this look very dumb likely virtual signalers. Why do you care if they are judging you,. You said you didn't care, but seems you do.

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I don't care if someone judges me or thinks I'm virtue signaling. Especially if it's someone I don't know. I care about the ridiculous rhetoric that's going about trying to push people into one camp or another. Everyone seems to be looking for a reason to make everything black or white, and ignoring the potential for the gray space inbetween, and all the nuance that comes with it.

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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HowdyTexasAggies said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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TexasAggie008 said:

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Outdoor mask wearing is the worst of all of the covid virtue signals

It speaks volumes about the individual doing it

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What volumes does it speak about the individual wearing it?

Personally I think not everyone is trying to virtue signal. Not everyone that wears a mask or refrains from engaging in life as normal is living in fear. Some people that wear the mask outdoors may be fearful of a passing interaction, and may simply not know any better. Others may do it out of convenience. I frequently wear my mask walking outdoors from building to building, or driving short distances between places that require masks. I'm sure there are people that see me in my car wearing my mask by myself and are thinking I'm an idiot or I'm virtue signalling to random strangers, but I don't care.

I think people that get triggered by others wearing masks speaks volumes about them. J/k. But seriously, just move on and stop judging everyone.

Sorry for the rant.

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I'm not triggered, but think people that do this look very dumb likely virtual signalers. Why do you care if they are judging you,. You said you didn't care, but seems you do.

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I don't care if someone judges me or thinks I'm virtue signaling. Especially if it's someone I don't know. I care about the ridiculous rhetoric that's going about trying to push people into one camp or another. Everyone seems to be looking for a reason to make everything black or white, and ignoring the potential for the gray space inbetween, and all the nuance that comes with it.

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unfortunately, this extends to pretty much everything and every issue these days.

beerad12man said:

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Yes, absolutely. Potentially blocking breathing ability during physical activity. Not sure what else you'd want to call it. I know most children are resilient and can likely overcome it, but kids with asthma? Kids who aren't in as good of shape or might have some issues breathing already? Yes, it can hurt them.

If you can breath the same with the mask than without it, it's fodder. I know without a doubt that it's harder for me to work out with a mask on, which is why I don't do it. Maybe children are just inhuman. Not to mention the mental aspect of this, which I don't doubt studies will come about with the lasting effects on some children.

Abso- freaking- lutely child abuse, and I have no qualms in saying that. And couldn't care less if you laugh at the absurdity.

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It's entirely unnecessary, but someone with a normal cardiopulmonary system isn't going to experience hypoxia or decreased exercise tolerance because of a cloth mask. The symptoms most experience with masks are entirely psychosomatic, and a majority have some form of claustrophobia whether they realize it or not.

And I think we're getting a bit fast and loose with the term child abuse. If this is child abuse (again, acknowledging it's entirely unnecessary from a medical perspective) then so is refusing to have your child vaccinated, asking them to help you fix the roof, sending them to bed without dinner, any form of even mild corporal punishment, allowing a 10 year old to sit in the front seat of a car, etc. Even something as common as teaching them the Christian conception of hell could be defined as psychological abuse of a child under such loose interpretations. The term effectively loses all meaning if we start labeling such things child abuse.

beerad12man said:

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Aust Ag said:

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amercer said:

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I don't like wearing my mask, and only do it when I have to, but plenty of people don't seem that bothered. So I'm not sure it's virtue signaling as much as they are just used to it. Hell, my 13 year old daughter played an entire soccer game last week in a mask and didn't miss a beat. It was a little mind blowing.

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They finally let elementary school kids in my district go do their 15 minutes of recess outside without a mask this week. I asked my kid this morning, "Was it cool, did you like it?" He said yes! I said what about the other kids,what did they say? He said they all were still wearing their masks, even though they didn't have to.

I think that is because of 2 things, either their parents told them to (but they're at school, not doing online, so I doubt this), or they are just conditioned to do it at this point. Which is what I think is going on. Why? Because when I see kids walking home or riding their bikes home after school, about 90% still have their masks on, a 1/2 mile from the school. By themselves. Sad. It's not 8 year old "virtue signaling", it's just what they have been trained to do at this point.

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The mental aspect of what we've done to children this past year is disgusting to me.

We are creating social anxieties, irrational fears and behaviors. I hope I'm overreacting and we can break them out of it over the next year or so. But when you take polls, and elderly are suggesting less social anxiety over a return to normal than children and 18-25 year olds, who aren't at risk from this? That's all you need to know.

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I think what we're seeing is COVID restrictions bringing underlying issues to the surface as opposed to creating them out of whole cloth.

One thing that's becoming clear is that the last year has had a disproportionate impact on the psychological well being of kids in higher socioeconomic classes. The rates of depression, suicide attempts, feelings of isolation, etc. don't seem to be changing much among kids in lower socioeconomic classes. It could be that we're just seeing a larger number of kids being exposed to societal stressors who aren't as used to them. COVID is a lot less stressful than what many kids were already dealing with on a daily basis, but kids more insulated from real world stressors at baseline are being hit harder.

My perception has been that the psychological toll has been much more dramatic in adults than children, but I'm also not a pediatrician and my kids are all too young to really perceive the gravity of it all. So take that perception for whatever it's worth which probably isn't much.

A large number of adults have either come to believe this is an existence threatening pandemic and now experience crippling fear/anxiety, or are so disillusioned by the response that they've lost all trust and belief in the systems that govern and support our society. Both are bad and strike me as far more troubling long term that anything that has occurred en masse for school age children, who decades of data show bounce back well on a societal level both academically and socially from short term stressors.

The damage the last year has done to the trust in our institutions, combined with the total inability for many now to even remotely accurately assess risk/benefit, is what concerns me the most. Much of the outcry over kids just comes off as the standard "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" ploy often utilized by groups when they find it socially or politically advantageous.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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I've said from the start outdoor transmission would be negligible, because we have a centuries worth of data on respiratory viruses that shows this. Unless you are within 3 feet or so of someone who is actively ill for a sustained time period, you just aren't going to receive a large enough inoculum outside to become ill yourself. There are exceptions to this (measles prior to vaccination for instance) but this is generally true across the broad spectrum of viruses with predominantly droplet spread.

Transmission of most respiratory viruses occurs almost exclusively indoors, which is one reason why most are more prevalent during the cold weather months. Contrary to what grandma told you, nobody gets a cold from going outside. It's because everyone else is inside all day in close quarters.

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Can you pass this info along to Dr. Fauci and the CDC?

Thanks,
America

Gumby said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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I've said from the start outdoor transmission would be negligible, because we have a centuries worth of data on respiratory viruses that shows this. Unless you are within 3 feet or so of someone who is actively ill for a sustained time period, you just aren't going to receive a large enough inoculum outside to become ill yourself. There are exceptions to this (measles prior to vaccination for instance) but this is generally true across the broad spectrum of viruses with predominantly droplet spread.

Transmission of most respiratory viruses occurs almost exclusively indoors, which is one reason why most are more prevalent during the cold weather months. Contrary to what grandma told you, nobody gets a cold from going outside. It's because everyone else is inside all day in close quarters.

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Can you pass this info along to Dr. Fauci and the CDC?

Thanks,
America

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I'm in a position to makes statements without any other considerations other than the data available. Here on this board I have no restrictions placed upon me by things like liability, public policy decisions, public perception and response, etc.

Generally speaking to try not to judge hedging bu those in the public eye and whose comments carry real world consequences, because unfortunately there are often more considerations than simply what the currently available data shows. There are things I post here that I would not say in a hospital board meeting to dictate facility policy, because the stakes are just different. It shouldnt be that way but it is, and a lot of it has to do with societal risk aversion. Not to parlay the blame onto others too much, but the reality is if society weren't so litigenuous and more willing to accept the consequences of known risks this wouldn't be as much of an issue.

tysker said:

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HowdyTexasAggies said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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TexasAggie008 said:

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Outdoor mask wearing is the worst of all of the covid virtue signals

It speaks volumes about the individual doing it

---

What volumes does it speak about the individual wearing it?

Personally I think not everyone is trying to virtue signal. Not everyone that wears a mask or refrains from engaging in life as normal is living in fear. Some people that wear the mask outdoors may be fearful of a passing interaction, and may simply not know any better. Others may do it out of convenience. I frequently wear my mask walking outdoors from building to building, or driving short distances between places that require masks. I'm sure there are people that see me in my car wearing my mask by myself and are thinking I'm an idiot or I'm virtue signalling to random strangers, but I don't care.

I think people that get triggered by others wearing masks speaks volumes about them. J/k. But seriously, just move on and stop judging everyone.

Sorry for the rant.

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I'm not triggered, but think people that do this look very dumb likely virtual signalers. Why do you care if they are judging you,. You said you didn't care, but seems you do.

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I will admit to virtue signaling and wearing a mask during my kids' soccer game two weekends ago only to appease my wife and potentially other parents. I know masks are of little benefit outdoors and mostly I want to watch the game by myself and generally not chitchat with others. But it was the first game of the season and we hadnt seen many of the parents since the fall so I wanted to 'check-in' with the community standards and didnt fell like looking like an outsider. Especially knowing I have yet to be vaccinated. Interestingly on the day, I recall only one parent not wearing a mask consistently and he is a doctor; except for a school nurse, all of us other parents are generally non-medical professionals

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We all jump through silly hoops and participate in pointless, absurd social norms all the time which is why I find it odd some are so up in arms over this. They likely do sillier things all the time just because they're told to. I mean, gender reveal parties?! Really?

Hell, look at male circumcision. Every single supposed medical benefit as been thoroughly debunked and 99.9% of men who ever lived werent circumcised...yet we keep doing it because we think we're supposed to. Anyone who had their kids foreskin removed really has no place ever condemning dumb social behaviors, myself included.

But it's not merely a matter of social comfort. Many school districts have threatened canceling events or entire seasons if people don't wear masks. If the choice is making a point or your kid getting to play their senior year, that's not a choice at all for any parent who gives a damn about their kid. Anyone not blinded by ideological rage will shrug and perform a task that simple for the benefit of their kid.

In many ways, you lose the luxury of unfettered principle when you become a parent.

Gumby said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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Gumby said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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I've said from the start outdoor transmission would be negligible, because we have a centuries worth of data on respiratory viruses that shows this. Unless you are within 3 feet or so of someone who is actively ill for a sustained time period, you just aren't going to receive a large enough inoculum outside to become ill yourself. There are exceptions to this (measles prior to vaccination for instance) but this is generally true across the broad spectrum of viruses with predominantly droplet spread.

Transmission of most respiratory viruses occurs almost exclusively indoors, which is one reason why most are more prevalent during the cold weather months. Contrary to what grandma told you, nobody gets a cold from going outside. It's because everyone else is inside all day in close quarters.

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Can you pass this info along to Dr. Fauci and the CDC?

Thanks,
America

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I'm in a position to makes statements without any other considerations other than the data available. Here on this board I have no restrictions placed upon me by things like liability, public policy decisions, public perception and response, etc.

Generally speaking to try not to judge hedging bu those in the public eye and whose comments carry real world consequences, because unfortunately there are often more considerations than simply what the currently available data shows. There are things I post here that I would not say in a hospital board meeting to dictate facility policy, because the stakes are just different. It shouldnt be that way but it is, and a lot of it has to do with societal risk aversion. Not to parlay the blame onto others too much, but the reality is if society weren't so litigenuous and more willing to accept the consequences of known risks this wouldn't be as much of an issue.

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I get what you are saying but also find it concerning that we find it so easy to give legal protection to vaccine makers but scientists and doctors can't speak the truth for fear of lawsuits. We quickly throw risk and caution to the wind when it benefits big pharma.

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This is one of the things that is so concerning to me. In the last 20 years Pfizer has been fined $4.6 billion dollars in penalties. Moderna has zero commercially available products prior to the COVID vaccine. Everything they have ever made is still in the trial stage. Trust is earned and I am just not there yet.

If a history lawsuits and penalties is your gauge of trust in the medical industry you might as well just go Amish and shun all modern medicine.

My family will not wear a mask, if a business requires it we go elsewhere.

Its idiotic.

If you have recovered from covid or been vaccinated you basically cant give it to anyone.
Especially out doors.

You can wear one to bed for all I care.

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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TexasAggie008 said:

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Outdoor mask wearing is the worst of all of the covid virtue signals

It speaks volumes about the individual doing it

---

What volumes does it speak about the individual wearing it?

Personally I think not everyone is trying to virtue signal. Not everyone that wears a mask or refrains from engaging in life as normal is living in fear. Some people that wear the mask outdoors may be fearful of a passing interaction, and may simply not know any better. Others may do it out of convenience. I frequently wear my mask walking outdoors from building to building, or driving short distances between places that require masks. I'm sure there are people that see me in my car wearing my mask by myself and are thinking I'm an idiot or I'm virtue signalling to random strangers, but I don't care.

I think people that get triggered by others wearing masks speaks volumes about them. J/k. But seriously, just move on and stop judging everyone.

Sorry for the rant.

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The problem with your "opinion" is that the ones who haven't worn masks through the entire farce have been hounded by those who wear them. I have personally experienced it several times.

LEAVE PEOPLE TF ALONE.

Quit playing the victim card, ill rip it put of your hand every time.

riverrataggie said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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Gumby said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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I've said from the start outdoor transmission would be negligible, because we have a centuries worth of data on respiratory viruses that shows this. Unless you are within 3 feet or so of someone who is actively ill for a sustained time period, you just aren't going to receive a large enough inoculum outside to become ill yourself. There are exceptions to this (measles prior to vaccination for instance) but this is generally true across the broad spectrum of viruses with predominantly droplet spread.

Transmission of most respiratory viruses occurs almost exclusively indoors, which is one reason why most are more prevalent during the cold weather months. Contrary to what grandma told you, nobody gets a cold from going outside. It's because everyone else is inside all day in close quarters.

---

Can you pass this info along to Dr. Fauci and the CDC?

Thanks,
America

---

I'm in a position to makes statements without any other considerations other than the data available. Here on this board I have no restrictions placed upon me by things like liability, public policy decisions, public perception and response, etc.

Generally speaking to try not to judge hedging bu those in the public eye and whose comments carry real world consequences, because unfortunately there are often more considerations than simply what the currently available data shows. There are things I post here that I would not say in a hospital board meeting to dictate facility policy, because the stakes are just different. It shouldnt be that way but it is, and a lot of it has to do with societal risk aversion. Not to parlay the blame onto others too much, but the reality is if society weren't so litigenuous and more willing to accept the consequences of known risks this wouldn't be as much of an issue.

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Question. Do you think doctors go against what they think is right in situations where there are certain narratives and political pressures?

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I think doctors often make decisions based on risk aversion and potential liability. We refer to it as "defensive medicine", and everyone does it at times. Political pressure impacts decisions at the level of hospital administration and public health policy, but generally not at the level of individual decision making by any given doctor treating any given patient.

For example, an ICU doctor might give an unstable patient antibiotics even after it has become pretty clear that the patient doesn't have infection just because they are so sick and the potential liability on the small chance they are wrong. It would be very rare for such a decision to be made based on broader politics narratives about certain antibiotics, though.

Doctors weren't avoiding HCQ because of political pressure, they were doing so because most didnt believe it worked based on the data available.