Windy City Ag said:

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Quote:

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The bolded is my point. Short term. You're not able to step back and understand that people are looking long-term, and nothing in the available numbers justifies them taking a long term risk.

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I also don't see a reasonable basis to think their is a long-term risk besides pure fear of the unknown. Is there something specific that you have read about or seen that would cause you to think this could happen?

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I posted my reasons a page or two back. But to recap: Non-existent to market in < 1 year. Pressure to get it coming from everywhere, and immunity given to the drug companies and the protection they now have.

If you can't see how a person may be reluctant to take a vaccine for a virus they have very little chance of dying or having long-term effects of, are you the reasonable one?

bay fan said:

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aTm2004 said:

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bay fan said:

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aTm2004 said:

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Fitch said:

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I've got an Aunt who is a long hauler and an uncle had to have monoclonal antibody treatment. Lots of family friends who spent days sick and at least two that progressed to pneumonia and lost 10+ lbs while their kids shrugged it off in a few days with nothing but a runny nose.

Said this on another thread but a doctor friend / old lady from A&M days knows a dozen people dead, two in their 30's and a 23 y/o nurse. In no way is that the common outcome or even remotely likely, but the odds aren't zero either.

Another friend is a rheumatologist and acknowledged they're seeing "a ton of people every week" with post covid issues presenting in every flavor under the sun months after recovering.

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You're taking to people with jaded views on it. They see the worse of it and assume it's that way for everyone, which it's not. They're not seeing or telling you about the countless others who had no or minimal issues and no long term effects. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a retired LEO who told me he had to learn early in his career to turn it off when he was off shift. When I asked him what he meant, he told me that he dealt with some of the worst people in the world, and he had to step out of his LEO mindset while he was off the job so he didn't see every guy as an alcoholic husband who abuses his wife and kids, didn't see every single mother as someone who allows their boyfriend to molest her daughter because he funds her drug habit, etc. He said he could remember in vivid detail the worst cases he was involved in but very few of the positive interactions he had with the public. I think we're seeing something similar from the medical community.

The point is, when all you see is the bad you forget about the good, which vastly outnumbers the bad.

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That's funny. Doctors direct experience equates to "jaded" views because in your LACK of experience they are wrong? Okay, good to get that straight, best to pretend these problems don't exist by persistently saying so as nobody experiencing long term effect has sought out your advice.

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You missed the entire point of what I am saying. If all you see is the bad, you begin to think that's how it is, when in reality, it's a very small percentage.

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The thing is, doctors also see those that recover just fine to a much larger extent then you. You act like they can't process their experiences and form informed opinions. Your opinion literally has nothing to offer over that of a medical professional. Please stop.

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I'm not trying to be a medical professional, nor do I need to be one to make the decision I feel is best for me. I may consult one for their guidance, but that doesn't mean I have to do what they say.

You're so consumed with people getting it. You have it, so why do you care about others who choose not to? It's about control, isn't it?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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fightingfarmer09 said:

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If a doctor does not have enough faith in the vaccine to go about their job without a mask, then I don't understand why there is outrage at those not wanting the vaccine.

If you go to a doctors office they have 100% of the staff vaccinated, temperature checking daily, and bathe in disinfectant. Yet, they still all wear masks when around each other in the office and insist on patients wear masks in room 1-on-1.

Who is really denying the science here?

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I still see sick and infectious COVID patients about weekly, and I see many more people with upper respiratory infections that I don't know aren't COVID until hours or days later. It's not unusual for me to walk from a room with a sick kid who may have COVID to a 75 year old that didn't get a COVID vaccine and doesn't want one. Multiply that by dozens of instances per week with people that have all sorts of health problems that compromise their immune system. After all, sick people and unhealthy people are the ones in my office the most for obvious reasons.

Vaccines are about 90% at stopping spread of COVID. 90% may sound awesome to you, but when you have dozens of possible contaminations per week, 10% failure rate starts to look pretty bad. I unmask when I know the other people in the room have been vaccinated, but I put on my full PPE armor for sick people and still wear a mask around my unvaccinated patients.

But feel free to spout off about how you would do it different.

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You know, I thought what you posted would have been common sense.

In addition, while the vaccine appears to confer pretty long lasting immunity, we still don't know for how long in different people. Maybe after 6 months it starts fading in people over a certain age.

There are plenty of reasons to continue to be cautious for an intervention (masks) that have zero harm. Especially considering that healthcare providers bear the burden of taking care of those that get sick, I don't see why they wouldn't want to.

aTm2004 said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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You say it's safe but there are a lot of people who are reluctant for reasons I stated earlier in this thread. Also, we're trying to force people to get a vaccine for a virus with a 99% survival rate for a large majority of people. It's not a virus wiping out 30% of the population.

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Let's not pretend this is rational. When this started, we had tons of healthy people taking and wanting to take hydroxychloroquine for prevention, which we know is dangerious and has very poor evidence for effectiveness, if any. I have yet to have a single sick patient decline any experimental COVID treatments that have poor evidence, whether it be ivermectin, bamlanivimab, plasma, or remdesivir. This despite the fact that we have no idea the short or long term risks of some of these treatments. Yet here we have a very effective, safe (at least short term), and free vaccine, and those same people willing to break the law to get hydroxychloroquine won't go near the vaccine to literally save their lives.

Based on that, it's easy to say that vaccine hesistancy for most isn't some carefully calculated risk based on the plethora of available scientific and epidemiological data. It's purely emotional and driven by misinformation.

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The bolded is my point. Short term. You're not able to step back and understand that people are looking long-term, and nothing in the available numbers justifies them taking a long term risk. Also, when this started, we were not sure what we were dealing with and everyone was in a panic. We're more than a year into this with solid data available for everyone to make an educated decision on what they feel is best for themselves. If they're doing something you don't feel is safe for them, give them your opinion and support their decision to do what they feel is best, and if you're not able to accept and understand that, then you need to find a new profession, IMO.

It seems there are still a lot of people, and docs, stuck in March 2020 mindset.

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I need a better eyeroll emoji. I'm not changing jobs anytime soon unless NASA needs a redneck astronaut. Yes, I am completely judgemental of people who are at risk for severe COVID and don't want the vaccine. There is no possible universe where anyone over 75 with severe medical problems is at more risk from the vaccine than from a COVID infection. Yet I have plenty of people like that who continue to refuse vaccination.

I think the major public health takeaway is that people react primarily to fear. Both sides are pushing fear right now. One side is pushing fear of COVID to ridiculous extremes, like saying vaccinated people should mask and distance in casual circumstances. Another side is pushing fear of a vaccine, which to every possible measure has been proven to be as safe as possible. People are getting their fear from their chosen echo chamber, and that's driving pretty much all the behavior we see everywhere. And of couse all media outlets have a major interest in driving fear so it's probably not going to get better either way anytime soon.

aTm2004 said:

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bay fan said:

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aTm2004 said:

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bay fan said:

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aTm2004 said:

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Fitch said:

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I've got an Aunt who is a long hauler and an uncle had to have monoclonal antibody treatment. Lots of family friends who spent days sick and at least two that progressed to pneumonia and lost 10+ lbs while their kids shrugged it off in a few days with nothing but a runny nose.

Said this on another thread but a doctor friend / old lady from A&M days knows a dozen people dead, two in their 30's and a 23 y/o nurse. In no way is that the common outcome or even remotely likely, but the odds aren't zero either.

Another friend is a rheumatologist and acknowledged they're seeing "a ton of people every week" with post covid issues presenting in every flavor under the sun months after recovering.

---

You're taking to people with jaded views on it. They see the worse of it and assume it's that way for everyone, which it's not. They're not seeing or telling you about the countless others who had no or minimal issues and no long term effects. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a retired LEO who told me he had to learn early in his career to turn it off when he was off shift. When I asked him what he meant, he told me that he dealt with some of the worst people in the world, and he had to step out of his LEO mindset while he was off the job so he didn't see every guy as an alcoholic husband who abuses his wife and kids, didn't see every single mother as someone who allows their boyfriend to molest her daughter because he funds her drug habit, etc. He said he could remember in vivid detail the worst cases he was involved in but very few of the positive interactions he had with the public. I think we're seeing something similar from the medical community.

The point is, when all you see is the bad you forget about the good, which vastly outnumbers the bad.

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That's funny. Doctors direct experience equates to "jaded" views because in your LACK of experience they are wrong? Okay, good to get that straight, best to pretend these problems don't exist by persistently saying so as nobody experiencing long term effect has sought out your advice.

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You missed the entire point of what I am saying. If all you see is the bad, you begin to think that's how it is, when in reality, it's a very small percentage.

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The thing is, doctors also see those that recover just fine to a much larger extent then you. You act like they can't process their experiences and form informed opinions. Your opinion literally has nothing to offer over that of a medical professional. Please stop.

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I'm not trying to be a medical professional, nor do I need to be one to make the decision I feel is best for me. I may consult one for their guidance, but that doesn't mean I have to do what they say.

You're so consumed with people getting it. You have it, so why do you care about others who choose not to? It's about control, isn't it?

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More like wishing people wouldn't spread unjustified fear about the vaccine so society can get to the finish line much quicker. You however have made this thread like a full time job baselessly goal tending against the scary vaccine.

You are right, it's a personal decision. So if you are so comfortable with your decision, why the driving need to justify it to a bunch of people on the internet you don't know? Just make it for yourself and move on, no need to crusade.

Windy City Ag said:

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Quote:

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I posted my reasons a page or two back. But to recap: Non-existent to market in < 1 year. Pressure to get it coming from everywhere, and immunity given to the drug companies and the protection they now have.

If you can't see how a person may be reluctant to take a vaccine for a virus they have very little chance of dying or having long-term effects of, are you the reasonable one?

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We may just have different definitions of reasonable.

I don't agree that this vaccine was non-existent to market in a year. The pressure to get it is understandable given the backdrop. Immunity given to drug companies was also a crisis era measure to get the manufacturers to not hem and haw and delay getting the stuff to market.

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There was a COVID-19 vaccine a year ago?

And the immunity given to the drug companies isn't concerning to you because it was a "crisis era measure" to get the vaccine to the market quickly? Not being concerned about that is how a reasonable person would act?

Quote:

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On a purely data-driven standpoint, it is reasonable and even sensible to drastically reduce or eliminate the risks of COVID by taking a vaccine that is incredibly safe by most any short-term standard and, as I mentioned before, does not have any reasonable historical or scientific basis to imply longer effects.

But to each their own.

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You cannot say that with 100% confidence because we do not even have a year's worth of history with this vaccine. You've convinced yourself that this is accurate, but it is not.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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aTm2004 said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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You say it's safe but there are a lot of people who are reluctant for reasons I stated earlier in this thread. Also, we're trying to force people to get a vaccine for a virus with a 99% survival rate for a large majority of people. It's not a virus wiping out 30% of the population.

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Let's not pretend this is rational. When this started, we had tons of healthy people taking and wanting to take hydroxychloroquine for prevention, which we know is dangerious and has very poor evidence for effectiveness, if any. I have yet to have a single sick patient decline any experimental COVID treatments that have poor evidence, whether it be ivermectin, bamlanivimab, plasma, or remdesivir. This despite the fact that we have no idea the short or long term risks of some of these treatments. Yet here we have a very effective, safe (at least short term), and free vaccine, and those same people willing to break the law to get hydroxychloroquine won't go near the vaccine to literally save their lives.

Based on that, it's easy to say that vaccine hesistancy for most isn't some carefully calculated risk based on the plethora of available scientific and epidemiological data. It's purely emotional and driven by misinformation.

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The bolded is my point. Short term. You're not able to step back and understand that people are looking long-term, and nothing in the available numbers justifies them taking a long term risk. Also, when this started, we were not sure what we were dealing with and everyone was in a panic. We're more than a year into this with solid data available for everyone to make an educated decision on what they feel is best for themselves. If they're doing something you don't feel is safe for them, give them your opinion and support their decision to do what they feel is best, and if you're not able to accept and understand that, then you need to find a new profession, IMO.

It seems there are still a lot of people, and docs, stuck in March 2020 mindset.

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I need a better eyeroll emoji. I'm not changing jobs anytime soon unless NASA needs a redneck astronaut. Yes, I am completely judgemental of people who are at risk for severe COVID and don't want the vaccine. There is no possible universe where anyone over 75 with severe medical problems is at more risk from the vaccine than from a COVID infection. Yet I have plenty of people like that who continue to refuse vaccination.

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But why do you care if a 75 year old refuses to get the vaccine? It's their decision. Just because it's not the decision you would make doesn't make their choice any less valid. You're not God nor are you the person who controls them. All you can do is give them your opinion and let them make the choice they feel is best.

And honestly, if I was 75, I would get the vaccine in a heart beat. Lowest case count yet highest death count by far. If it turns out that there are side effects of the vaccine 2 years down the road, I'll be 77, so what does it matter? I've lived my life have far less tomorrows than yesterdays. It's different for someone in their 30s.

Quote:

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I think the major public health takeaway is that people react primarily to fear. Both sides are pushing fear right now. One side is pushing fear of COVID to ridiculous extremes, like saying vaccinated people should mask and distance in casual circumstances. Another side is pushing fear of a vaccine, which to every possible measure has been proven to be as safe as possible. People are getting their fear from their chosen echo chamber, and that's driving pretty much all the behavior we see everywhere. And of couse all media outlets have a major interest in driving fear so it's probably not going to get better either way anytime soon.

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I agree and disagree with you on this. The government and media has used fear of COVID to destroy people's lives, and are still doing it today. The "fear" from the vaccine came the moment they halted the J&J vaccine for literally a 1 in a million issue. Up until then, the vaccine numbers were shooting up. Yeah, you have the anti vaxers out there, but they're a very small minority.

Then there are also people, like my wife and I, who look at the COVID data and see we are at little risk, and decide to not get the vaccine at this time. Does that mean we will not get it in the future? No. But instead of respecting our decision, we get people like many on this board calling us anti vaxers and telling us we're going to kill people.

bay fan said:

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aTm2004 said:

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bay fan said:

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aTm2004 said:

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bay fan said:

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aTm2004 said:

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Fitch said:

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I've got an Aunt who is a long hauler and an uncle had to have monoclonal antibody treatment. Lots of family friends who spent days sick and at least two that progressed to pneumonia and lost 10+ lbs while their kids shrugged it off in a few days with nothing but a runny nose.

Said this on another thread but a doctor friend / old lady from A&M days knows a dozen people dead, two in their 30's and a 23 y/o nurse. In no way is that the common outcome or even remotely likely, but the odds aren't zero either.

Another friend is a rheumatologist and acknowledged they're seeing "a ton of people every week" with post covid issues presenting in every flavor under the sun months after recovering.

---

You're taking to people with jaded views on it. They see the worse of it and assume it's that way for everyone, which it's not. They're not seeing or telling you about the countless others who had no or minimal issues and no long term effects. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a retired LEO who told me he had to learn early in his career to turn it off when he was off shift. When I asked him what he meant, he told me that he dealt with some of the worst people in the world, and he had to step out of his LEO mindset while he was off the job so he didn't see every guy as an alcoholic husband who abuses his wife and kids, didn't see every single mother as someone who allows their boyfriend to molest her daughter because he funds her drug habit, etc. He said he could remember in vivid detail the worst cases he was involved in but very few of the positive interactions he had with the public. I think we're seeing something similar from the medical community.

The point is, when all you see is the bad you forget about the good, which vastly outnumbers the bad.

---

That's funny. Doctors direct experience equates to "jaded" views because in your LACK of experience they are wrong? Okay, good to get that straight, best to pretend these problems don't exist by persistently saying so as nobody experiencing long term effect has sought out your advice.

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You missed the entire point of what I am saying. If all you see is the bad, you begin to think that's how it is, when in reality, it's a very small percentage.

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The thing is, doctors also see those that recover just fine to a much larger extent then you. You act like they can't process their experiences and form informed opinions. Your opinion literally has nothing to offer over that of a medical professional. Please stop.

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I'm not trying to be a medical professional, nor do I need to be one to make the decision I feel is best for me. I may consult one for their guidance, but that doesn't mean I have to do what they say.

You're so consumed with people getting it. You have it, so why do you care about others who choose not to? It's about control, isn't it?

---

More like wishing people wouldn't spread unjustified fear about the vaccine so society can get to the finish line much quicker. You however have made this thread like a full time job baselessly goal tending against the scary vaccine.

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It's not unjustified fear. It's a legit concern people have. The issue is you're so dug in on COVID and the vaccine that you're not able to admit it to yourself.

Quote:

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You are right, it's a personal decision. So if you are so comfortable with your decision, why the driving need to justify it to a bunch of people on the internet you don't know? Just make it for yourself and move on, no need to crusade.

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Because I know it makes people like you upset, and for some unknown reason, that brings me joy.

aTm2004 said:

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There was a COVID-19 vaccine a year ago?

And the immunity given to the drug companies isn't concerning to you because it was a "crisis era measure" to get the vaccine to the market quickly? Not being concerned about that is how a reasonable person would act?

You cannot say that with 100% confidence because we do not even have a year's worth of history with this vaccine. You've convinced yourself that this is accurate, but it is not.

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So, drug makers pretty much already have immunity from making vaccines. That's nothing new. Vaccines aren't a big money maker, and if drug companies had to worry about defending every frivolous law suit, they'd either get out of the business of making vaccines, jack up the price, or devote less resources to it and it would take much longer to develop.


Additionally, the first humans were injected with this vaccine over a year ago (March 2020). So, while not a lot, there is over a year's worth of data in some people. If you understand the technology (which has been researched for 20+ years), and the advancements that have come with it, it's very easy to understand how this came to market so quickly.


No one can say anything with 100% certainty that an intervention won't have long term side effects. Hundreds of medications have come to market without long term data on safety beyond 5 years. Yet people don't freak out about those.

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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aTm2004 said:

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There was a COVID-19 vaccine a year ago?

And the immunity given to the drug companies isn't concerning to you because it was a "crisis era measure" to get the vaccine to the market quickly? Not being concerned about that is how a reasonable person would act?

You cannot say that with 100% confidence because we do not even have a year's worth of history with this vaccine. You've convinced yourself that this is accurate, but it is not.

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So, drug makers pretty much already have immunity from making vaccines. That's nothing new. Vaccines aren't a big money maker, and if drug companies had to worry about defending every frivolous law suit, they'd either get out of the business of making vaccines, jack up the price, or devote less resources to it and it would take much longer to develop.

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They were given a different type of immunity than normal.
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-are-pharmaceutical-companies-immune-covid-19-vaccine-lawsuits-1562793

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Additionally, the first humans were injected with this vaccine over a year ago (March 2020). So, while not a lot, there is over a year's worth of data in some people. If you understand the technology (which has been researched for 20+ years), and the advancements that have come with it, it's very easy to understand how this came to market so quickly.

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And of those people are fine and nothing comes from it in 2022, more people will be more willing to get it. Same in 2023 as an even larger percentage of people come into 2 years.

Quote:

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No one can say anything with 100% certainty that an intervention won't have long term side effects. Hundreds of medications have come to market without long term data on safety beyond 5 years. Yet people don't freak out about those.

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The push to almost mandate a person take those medications wasn't there either. Do you not see the difference?

What I dont get is why so many people are so concerned about what other people do, especially now that the public has universal access to the vaccine.

I understand why some people choose to get it or not get it. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't really care why you chose the way you did. It shouldn't matter to me at all. I understand why I chose to get the vaccine, and that also should not matter one way or another to you.



I have always resisted the masks and worn them as little as possible. The only place I have worn one this year regularly is to my kids' school, and you don't want to mess with those crazy women in the front office. Not worth it.

I need someone to explain to me why we still have any masks or any restrictions now that the vaccines are available to anyone who wants them. That doesn't make any sense at all.

If you dont take the vaccine then you are accepting the risk anyway. If you do take the vaccine your not at risk. So why if I board a flight to I have to put a mask on?

I just don't get it.

agsalaska said:

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What I dont get is why so many people are so concerned about what other people do, especially now that the public has universal access to the vaccine.

I understand why some people choose to get it or not get it. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't really care why you chose the way you did. It shouldn't matter to me at all. I understand why I chose to get the vaccine, and that also should not matter one way or another to you.



I have always resisted the masks and worn them as little as possible. The only place I have worn one this year regularly is to my kids' school, and you don't want to mess with those crazy women in the front office. Not worth it.

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Well, for one, so that hospitals aren't overwhelmed with trying to deal with a preventable illness and they can get back to normal operations. The healthcare world is tired right now, and the disregard for the health and wellbeing of healthcare workers so that someone can flaunt their choice to not get vaccinated and not wear a mask is disheartening and frustrating to say the least.

Healthcare workers don't have a choice in denying care to those that are unvaccinated, or refuse to be careful, just like they don't have a choice in refusing care to a drunk driver who just killed a person. So those that choose that are to not get a vaccine aren't actually dealing with the consequences of that choice themselves, they're potentially pushing the consequences of that choice onto others.

agsalaska said:

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What I dont get is why so many people are so concerned about what other people do, especially now that the public has universal access to the vaccine.

I understand why some people choose to get it or not get it. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't really care why you chose the way you did. It shouldn't matter to me at all. I understand why I chose to get the vaccine, and that also should not matter one way or another to you.



I have always resisted the masks and worn them as little as possible. The only place I have worn one this year regularly is to my kids' school, and you don't want to mess with those crazy women in the front office. Not worth it.

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Because infectious diseases are societal issues more than they are individual issues. It requires a different approach to address the problem. That's what herd immunity is, and the significance is beyond your individual immune system.

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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fightingfarmer09 said:

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If a doctor does not have enough faith in the vaccine to go about their job without a mask, then I don't understand why there is outrage at those not wanting the vaccine.

If you go to a doctors office they have 100% of the staff vaccinated, temperature checking daily, and bathe in disinfectant. Yet, they still all wear masks when around each other in the office and insist on patients wear masks in room 1-on-1.

Who is really denying the science here?

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I still see sick and infectious COVID patients about weekly, and I see many more people with upper respiratory infections that I don't know aren't COVID until hours or days later. It's not unusual for me to walk from a room with a sick kid who may have COVID to a 75 year old that didn't get a COVID vaccine and doesn't want one. Multiply that by dozens of instances per week with people that have all sorts of health problems that compromise their immune system. After all, sick people and unhealthy people are the ones in my office the most for obvious reasons.

Vaccines are about 90% at stopping spread of COVID. 90% may sound awesome to you, but when you have dozens of possible contaminations per week, 10% failure rate starts to look pretty bad. I unmask when I know the other people in the room have been vaccinated, but I put on my full PPE armor for sick people and still wear a mask around my unvaccinated patients.

But feel free to spout off about how you would do it different.

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You know, I thought what you posted would have been common sense.

In addition, while the vaccine appears to confer pretty long lasting immunity, we still don't know for how long in different people. Maybe after 6 months it starts fading in people over a certain age.

There are plenty of reasons to continue to be cautious for an intervention (masks)[ that have zero harm. Especially considering that healthcare providers bear the burden of taking care of those that get sick, I don't see why they wouldn't want to.

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I loathe this mindset.

Gordo14 said:

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agsalaska said:

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What I dont get is why so many people are so concerned about what other people do, especially now that the public has universal access to the vaccine.

I understand why some people choose to get it or not get it. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't really care why you chose the way you did. It shouldn't matter to me at all. I understand why I chose to get the vaccine, and that also should not matter one way or another to you.



I have always resisted the masks and worn them as little as possible. The only place I have worn one this year regularly is to my kids' school, and you don't want to mess with those crazy women in the front office. Not worth it.

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Because infectious diseases are societal issues more than they are individual issues. It requires a different approach to address the problem. That's what herd immunity is, and the significance is beyond your individual immune system.

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Then motivate people to get it. I got it in January because I thought things would change for those of us that did. It didn't. The pathetic, cowardly military still made me wear a mask, distance, quarantine, etc.

Had I known this I never would have got it.

Agreed. Those that think muzzling your entire country all at once, sick or not, can't possibly have zero societal harm have always amazed me. Maybe they just forget what it's like to not have masks. So much better of a way of life for me, personally.

Have they actually studied the psychological effects of this? And before you say Japan, that's BS. Japan didn't wear masks any and everywhere for 14 months. You can see plenty of photos and videos of people in grocery stores, interacting without masks. They were mostly used for the sick, and public transit. I know people who have been to Japan that have said as much.

I personally am enjoying the increased sex drive and muscle growth as a useful side effect from Moderna

Gordo14 said:

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I think the extra step is that this hyper political world has enabled foreign countries to amplify these behaviors. Historically, anti-vaxers were largely hippies, but currently they are far and away Trump supporters. So this vaccine hesitancy isn't really in-line with historical norms, this comes from somewhere else (for the record Donald Trump got vaccinated). What I think we are seeing is a very powerful effort from foreign powers to lose faith in American institutions. I think this has happened on many fronts, but the vaccine is the latest place where they are pushing their agenda. I am very disappointed that more people aren't getting the vaccine (there is no reason we shouldn't reach 80+% vaccinated), but I think it's also a sad reminder that people have become ultra-sensitive about political issues. The honest root of vaccine hesitancy IMO is that getting a vaccine inherently means that you've acknowledged the problem. For some people, that is a political existence that goes against their entire identiy for the past year of minimizing COVID. It's always been present... HCQ is a magic cure, everyone that gets it is asymptomatic (April), nobody dies of covid anymore (July), we're at herd immunity (September), etc. I'm scared of what vaccine hesitancy is for the future of this country. Honestly, at this point, I am less worried about COVID than I am what it means. That doesn't mean getting a vaccination doesn't provide immense benefits, because it really does - an America at herd immunity is a game changer just as it is for many other diseases... But the root cause of vaccine hesitancy puts American exceptionalism and hegemony in serious jeopardy in the long term. This is the goal of certain foreign powers.

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Focusing on a subset of rubes where there are millions of people from all walks of life who are resistant to get the vaccine is pointless and screams as much tribalism as does the people you describe.

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For those railing against the CDC and Fauci as a reason to not get vaccinated (I'm calling bs on that actually being the reason), they are in a position where they have to be ultra-conservative. Their message is never going to be as nuanced as you want it to be even if they personally believe that we don't need to be that careful. They just can't afford to be wrong about the spread of the virus. But let's also be honest, that's not why you're not getting the vaccine anyway. It's just an excuse to complain about them and deflect from your irrational hesitancy. You never valued their opinions anyways.

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If they continuously lie to the public, the public will eventually catch on. When they do they will certainty begin to question everything else they have said. These are the people that though pausing the J&J vaccine would lead to more trust when just a month ago we could see what happened when the EU countries issued a pause. These are the people who go on TV and say you will never be able to shake hands again or that even though the vaccine is very safe and effective you still need to do everything the same as before you got it.

Its not some great conspiracy or Russian disinformation campaign causing hesitancy. Its the idiots and mouthpieces in both administrations bungling the messaging throughout the pandemic.

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Also appreciate that the "branch covidian" crowd got upset about being called an "anti-vaxxer nut".

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and for the majority of people who fall between the two groups it would be great if both of them just went away.

I just don't get it. The vaccine is widely available. Taking it or not taking it is a personal choice. To still mandate "masking up" (I LOATHE that phrase) seems to be saying that the vaccine doesn't work. They can't have it both ways. Either the vaccine works and no masks are required on flights or other public places, or it doesn't work and we just cower in our homes.

So frustrated right now.

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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agsalaska said:

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What I dont get is why so many people are so concerned about what other people do, especially now that the public has universal access to the vaccine.

I understand why some people choose to get it or not get it. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't really care why you chose the way you did. It shouldn't matter to me at all. I understand why I chose to get the vaccine, and that also should not matter one way or another to you.



I have always resisted the masks and worn them as little as possible. The only place I have worn one this year regularly is to my kids' school, and you don't want to mess with those crazy women in the front office. Not worth it.

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Well, for one, so that hospitals aren't overwhelmed with trying to deal with a preventable illness and they can get back to normal operations. The healthcare world is tired right now, and the disregard for the health and wellbeing of healthcare workers so that someone can flaunt their choice to not get vaccinated and not wear a mask is disheartening and frustrating to say the least.

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Since Abbott ended the mask mandate in Texas and removed all restrictions, the "surge" the "experts" predicted did not happen. In fact, Parkland Hospital closed its COVID units due to the numbers and the TMC has stopped publishing it's data, all due to the falling numbers. We're way past the "to slow the surge" point. Time to let it go.

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Healthcare workers don't have a choice in denying care to those that are unvaccinated, or refuse to be careful, just like they don't have a choice in refusing care to a drunk driver who just killed a person. So those that choose that are to not get a vaccine aren't actually dealing with the consequences of that choice themselves, they're potentially pushing the consequences of that choice onto others.

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So...as you say in this little quote...people who are free sometimes "push" the consequence of their choice onto others. It's been that way for hundreds of years and will continue to be. And maybe one of the docs on here can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the oath they take has a "but people who choose to do something I may not agree with" in it.

Alright staff, he brought politics into it, so here we go...

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I think the extra step is that this hyper political world has enabled foreign countries to amplify these behaviors. Historically, anti-vaxers were largely hippies, but currently they are far and away Trump supporters. So this vaccine hesitancy isn't really in-line with historical norms, this comes from somewhere else (for the record Donald Trump got vaccinated). What I think we are seeing is a very powerful effort from foreign powers to lose faith in American institutions. I think this has happened on many fronts, but the vaccine is the latest place where they are pushing their agenda. I am very disappointed that more people aren't getting the vaccine (there is no reason we shouldn't reach 80+% vaccinated), but I think it's also a sad reminder that people have become ultra-sensitive about political issues.

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You left out the part where the democrats have continued to throw gas on the fire when it comes to this via their refusal to actually act like the vaccine works, continued lockdowns and tightening of restrictions (look at MI right now) despite the numbers showing it's not working, and then the constant fear porn from the media. Even liberal Bill Maher had to call out their BS and constant fumbling of this. Nowhere in any of the numbers justifies schools being closed, yet there are kids in NY and CA who have not been in a classroom for over a year. Biden waltzes out to claim credit for the vaccine and even Fauci had to call BS on that.

You also left off how democrats and the media seem to not follow the restrictions they want to impose on you. Examples of CNN's Cuomo being out when he was to be quarantining, Dianne Feinstein not wearing a mask while at the airport. Governor Whitmer telling people to not go out while her husband is out boating for Memorial Day weekend. Oh, and recently, she took off to Florida while keeping MI locked up. Then there's Austin's mayor telling people to not travel and stay inside via a Zoom call while he was on vacation in Mexico. Gavin Newsome's visit to French Laundry. BLM protests/riots. The list goes on and on.

You want to toss the political football, you at least need to be honest about it and call out the BS from both sides and their influence on the current environment.

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The honest root of vaccine hesitancy IMO is that getting a vaccine inherently means that you've acknowledged the problem. For some people, that is a political existence that goes against their entire identiy for the past year of minimizing COVID. It's always been present... HCQ is a magic cure, everyone that gets it is asymptomatic (April), nobody dies of covid anymore (July), we're at herd immunity (September), etc. I'm scared of what vaccine hesitancy is for the future of this country. Honestly, at this point, I am less worried about COVID than I am what it means. That doesn't mean getting a vaccination doesn't provide immense benefits, because it really does - an America at herd immunity is a game changer just as it is for many other diseases... But the root cause of vaccine hesitancy puts American exceptionalism and hegemony in serious jeopardy in the long term. This is the goal of certain foreign powers.

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Do you know what drove the HCQ thing into what it was? The moment Trump mentioned it, the democrats and media began acting like this was some off the wall experimental drug that will kill you, when in reality it's been around for 50+ years and taken by people worldwide. Again, you need to be honest with what you're saying. The democrat's and media's melt and instant "do the opposite of Trump" mentality didn't help.

I don't recall anyone saying people don't die of COVID. I've heard many people ask why people who die "with" rather than "of" COVID are a COVID death. We don't count a HIV+ person who dies from falling down a mountain while hiking a HIV death, yet someone dies while riding a motorcycle tests positive for COVID, and he's a COVID death. There is a difference between "with" and "of," which doesn't seem to matter with COVID for some reason.

Herd immunity? Nobody knows since we do not know the true denominator of positive cases due to so many asymptomatic people.

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For those railing against the CDC and Fauci as a reason to not get vaccinated (I'm calling bs on that actually being the reason), they are in a position where they have to be ultra-conservative. Their message is never going to be as nuanced as you want it to be even if they personally believe that we don't need to be that careful. They just can't afford to be wrong about the spread of the virus. But let's also be honest, that's not why you're not getting the vaccine anyway. It's just an excuse to complain about them and deflect from your irrational hesitancy. You never valued their opinions anyways.

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The issue with the CDC and Fauci is they continue to move the goal posts and contradict each other. CDC director says once you have the vaccine you won't get the virus, then Fauci tells Rand Paul that just because you have the vaccine doesn't mean you won't get it and can still spread it. Their credibility is shot, and is a big reason why many people have stopped listening to them.

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For the "long term effects" of the mRNA vaccine crowd, the vaccine gets completely removed by your body in hours. All that can possibly remain is your immune response to COVID's spike protein. There is no realistic long term risk here. So when will all the long term risks be apparant to you? 6 months from now? 1 year from now? 10 years from now? 100 years from now? I mean there's always a longer time horizon for you to worry about the unknown even if it's irrational.

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For many that I've spoken with, and me as well, a couple of years out and we'll be more comfortable with it.

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Also appreciate that the "branch covidian" crowd got upset about being called an "anti-vaxxer nut".

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The funny thing about it is it is the COVIDians who are calling people who are reluctant to get the vaccine as an anti-vaxxer. You continue to cement the stereotype that you've built as COVID being a religion..."you must agree with me or else you're going to die and kill memaw!" We're not anti-vax. We're not comfortable taking a vaccine that didn't exist a year ago at this moment in time. Does that mean we will never take it? No.

Saxsoon said:

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I personally am enjoying the increased sex drive and muscle growth as a useful side effect from Moderna

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I've been married 10 years. It ain't gonna doe me any ****ing good.

Jbob04 said:

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CDC info indicates the odds not bad for people in my age group...68 yrs old.

No needle for me.

Seriously77 said:

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Jbob04 said:

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CDC info indicates the odds not bad for people in my age group...68 yrs old.

No needle for me.

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So, only about twice the death rate of measles. And what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger, amirite?