Oh my!
http://m.sportsdaydfw.com/sportsday/db_284451/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=Oa3873Xf

It sounds like it could have been drug out (whether guilty or not) for a long time, but he just punted. Kind of a big "eff you," if you don't want me to be a part of your world, the person who made anybody care about your sport, then I'll just spend my time, money, and efforts on those who do care: cancer survivors.

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It sounds like it could have been drug out (whether guilty or not) for a long time, but he just punted. Kind of a big "eff you," if you don't want me to be a part of your world, the person who made anybody care about your sport, then I'll just spend my time, money, and efforts on those who do care: cancer survivors.

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That was my first reaction. Listening to some folks on the radio here in Austin who say that if you're really innocent you fight and maintain that position. I don't know enough about th e process. Seems like they took enough blood from the guy and never found anything. I'm inclined to go with my first reaction.

Not defending Lance in the least, but I do find it odd to penalize someone like this when they never failed a drug test.

Yeah I mean...I agree with the above to some extent. There are a few other ways I think you could punish someone - but they'd have to be very blatant. Receipt for purchase, finding the drugs in their possession, finding some sort of masking agent...but the extent to which this has been pushed without any of those (at least to my knowledge?) really does make it seem like a witch hunt.

Further - a lifetime ban? For what I guess would still be considered a "first time offense"? That seems waaaaay out of line from what we see in other sports.

My experience is that where there is smoke, there is fire. Why would so many people, especially in the cycling community, publicly lie/come after him if it wasn't true? I've never seen a witch hunt of this magnitude in any sport by those involved in it. Those people have nothing to gain and it's highly doubtful, to say the least, that they have undertaken some mass conspiracy to tarnish him. In any other sport they hold up the people that brought them so much attention and good publicity; they don't tear them down -- without good reason.

What he's done for cancer, etc., is laudable but if he cheated to do it I have a problem with his accomplishments.

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What he's done for cancer, etc., is laudable but if he cheated to do it I have a problem with his accomplishments.

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All of the winners cheated - every single one of them. Like baseball, the majority of the stars were doping. I have a problem with the era, but no more of a problem with Armstrong or Jose Canseco than I do with the rest of the stars that were doing the same.

I have it from several former Aggie football players and strength coaches that a big chunk of our football teams in the "glory years" were taking steroids. I have heard the same from other schools. It was the era.

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My experience is that where there is smoke, there is fire.

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Usually true...but do we want people to be banned on the basis of this theory alone?

Reasons - they're all doping, and they feel less guilty if the best is doing it too; he's a dick; he gets all the money; they got tired of him winning.

Not that any of those are true. But they put enough doubt in my mind that I hate to see his titles stripped without the fire.

That sport has no credibility anymore. How many winners have not been stripped of their title? They have to test every day during a race.

Over 500 random tests that were negative...WOW. Someone is after him like a witch hunt.

Punishment based on hearsay...

How is a firsthand witness hearsay?

Plus the USADA says they have scientific evidence that he used EPO during the 2009 Tour.

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Plus the USADA says they have scientific evidence that he used EPO during the 2009 Tour.

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Well then, I guess that they should release that evidence and shut us all up.

He's been fighting this for, how long, 13 years + ?? How long does it take a the cycling world police to present their concrete evidence??
Those chasing him have a seemingly limitless amount of resources at their disposal, and Armstrong has how much left to keep fighting?
If he doesn't have the resources, how's he supposed to keep fighting?

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How is a firsthand witness hearsay?

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When the witnesses are not trustworthy or credible. Plenty of reasons to doubt the supposed witnesses against Lance.

Ask a prosecutor - would they rather have a case rely on testimony or scientific data?

So far - no scientific data has been presented to show Lance cheated.

That was Armstrong's deal with them. He losses all titles, but they don't release any proof.

You really believe he was clean?

EVERYONE else was doping and he was clean and just that much better than them?

That's as preposterous as thinking Barry Bonds was clean.

BTW, I had an argument in '03 with a friend of a friend - a recently graduated football player...told him my story of having direct knowledge of many of our football stars using steroids. He was a walk-on, was clean, and was a very Christian guy...essentially not the kind of teammate that you would share knowledge of steroid use with. He argued until he was blue in the face that the Aggie team was clean, that surely he would know about it if not.

He is now a strength coach and I ran into him a few years later. He had toned the Christian thing down a bit, still a strong faithful guy but didn't feel the need to tuck the Bible in his armpit and judge.

Combination of being removed from their playing days and him becoming a more easily approachable person, many of his former teammates and the majority of his colleagues had "come out" to him about their past steroid use. He told me the story and we both had a good laugh about his naivety.

Anyone who thinks Lance Armstrong is clean either has faith like a child (not a bad thing, but unfortunately Lance ain't Jesus)...either that or they are a moron.

http://www.chron.com/sports/cycling/article/Hypocrisy-all-that-remains-after-cycling-comes-3814240.php

Great article from the Houston Chronicle

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EVERYONE else was doping and he was clean and just that much better than them?

That's as preposterous as thinking Barry Bonds was clean.

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Lance probably used EPO at some point, but "everyone" is a strong word and occasionally someone is just that much better than others in their sport. See 1990s Barry Bonds.

[This message has been edited by TXAggie2011 (edited 8/25/2012 8:49p).]

At some point? Yeah...during his entire stretch ad TDF champ.

As far as Bonds goes, he was only that much better than everyone after he took steroids. He was very good, and maybe even the best in the league at one point without steroids, but Lance was far and above everyone else for nearly a decade in his sport. What Lance did is the equivalent of skinny pre-steroids Pittsburgh bonds winning the MVP seven years in a row during the heart of the steroid era, competing clean against McGwire and Sosa and still out hitting them. Obviously, that would have never happened – and is the very reason Bonds claims he took steroids - because lesser talents were outperforming him due to PED use.

In a clean league, bonds may very well have been a seven time MVP, he had that kind of talent. It's just sad that that's the way the era was. EVERYONE is definitely an exaggeration, but I think it's pretty safe to say that every TDF winner and every MLB MVP during that dirty era was on some sort of Juice.

[This message has been edited by Harry dunne (edited 8/26/2012 3:28p).]

I could make a very strong argument that Barry Bonds was the best player in baseball from 1990 to 1995/1996ish, a time that is generally considered pre-steroids Bonds but also a time when known and admitted roiders were in their hayday. If today's metrics and voters could go back in time, Bonds may have come away with 5, 6, or more MVPs before the Game of Shadows events.

Bonds used PEDs because he couldn't cope with aging, and all that comes with that, and that some players with some legitimate talent were using PEDs and getting attention from chasing baseball's most hallowed record.

[This message has been edited by TXAggie2011 (edited 8/26/2012 6:33p).]

Looking back i can recall the interviews and discussions about the baseballs being 'hot' and folks trying to figure out why home runs were on the upswing. Boy did everyone have their heads in the sand then.

I might look back on these armstrong discussions the same way.

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I might look back on these armstrong discussions the same way.

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Totally agree.

And as far as Bonds being the best player clean while everyone else was juicing, cue Seth Myers..."REALLY!?!?!...REALLY!?!?" you're going to believe Barry Bonds?

I think he was juicing all along and played the "poor me" card when he got caught..."oh I only did it to keep up!!!" BS, he was juicing all along and started with the heavy stuff when he started getting passed by.

Clean or not you're right, he was certainly one of the best players in the league during that time period but even so what he did PALES in comparison to Armstrong. Barry wasn't far and away the best player in the league for nearly a decade. There was a 4 year period where he won 3 MVPs and came in 2nd for another but finished no higher than 4th or 5th for the next five or six years until he started the (serious) juice.

As a matter of fact aside from the record season, he only lead the league in home runs once for the rest of his career, and the record season is his only season in the top-40 all-time for home runs.

He was great for sure, but not even close to the greatest of all time. Doping aside, Lance is easily the greatest rider of all time.

Back to Lance, my point is, if you take away Bonds' monstrous head growth and ridiculous muscle gain and pretend that like Lance, he showed no physiological signs of doping, I would have an easier time believing that Bonds DIDN'T use steroids because aside from the one season, his results weren't vastly superior to his competition, most of whom were using PEDs.

Lance on the other hand was vastly superior to the rest of his competition, most of whom are admitted/busted dopers.



[This message has been edited by Harry Dunne (edited 8/26/2012 9:40p).]

A few things...

1) I don't believe a single word Barry Bonds has ever said. I question him when he says "hi, I'm Barry Bonds." What he has said is absolutely not why I, and I'm sure most others, believe he was not on PEDs until late in the 1990s.

2) As I said, Bonds would probably would come away with more than 3 MVPs from the earlier half of his career if those guys from the front half of the 1990s were playing today. I'd argue that Bonds was every bit as dominant in the front half of the 1990s as Lance was during his run in France.

3) Are you trying to say Bonds or any player couldn't be a vastly superior player if their home run total didn't blow the rest of the league away?

That's hardly true, and I'm not sure pointing out Bonds was winning MVPs in the early 90s without hitting ridiculous amounts of home runs is the direction you want to go.

4) Are Bonds' numbers really not close to the best all time? Are you sure about that? Is Lance "easily" the best rider of all time?

Bonds possibly had the 2nd best career of any baseball player, ever. Eddy Merckx possibly had the best career of any cyclist, ever.

[This message has been edited by TXAggie2011 (edited 8/26/2012 10:25p).]

Dang. But how did he not get caught while under constant scrutiny, suspicion and testing?

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But how did he not get caught while under constant scrutiny, suspicion and testing?

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That's the crux of the whole thing. If we knew that, there would be nothing to discuss.

Yes, there are masking agents, there are ways to beat the tests they used at that time. But what did Lance have that beat the system 500 times that seemingly no other high profile cyclist and their armies of scientists and doctors could figure out?

[This message has been edited by TXAggie2011 (edited 8/26/2012 10:30p).]

I've heard and read Lance say over and over that he has never failed a drug test. He adamantly and repleatedly denied EVER failing a drug test.

I don't follow the sport that much, but I have NEVER heard him say that he has never taken performance enhancing drugs. NEVER!

not drunk... Gamedrunk!!!

Gamedrunk - I don't know what news you follow. But Lance has repeatedly denied taking any PEDs. He cites the negative drug tests as proof.

Read the wiki entry for Lance - which cites via its references just a few of the times Lance has publicly denied use of PEDs. He has also denied it under oath as part of legal proceedings related to his bonus owed by a sponsor after the 2004 TDF.

Yes, Lance is easily the best rider of all time… Seven TDF titles... next most is five.

If he's not the best, you tell me who is.

Can you make the same statement about bonds? If he's not the best of all time, tell me who is? I don't think I have ever heard anyone try to make the argument for bonds as the best ball player of all-time.

I know this wasn't the original point of the thread or the original argument but I'm just saying, Bonds was a great baseball player, but not nearly the best of all time. Not even the best in his era.

To be fair, it is harder to be vastly superior to your peers in baseball. Even though baseball is not nearly as worldwide of a sport as cycling there is much, much more money in it. How much money does the two hundredth best cyclist make per year?

The only real parallel I can make is that winning the TDF is like winning the MVP in MLB. If you agree with that, then the numbers support Lance. I don't know that there has ever been a baseball player to win seven MVPs in a stretch like that... or winning seven MVPs at all, has there?

If you ask any American to name a cyclist, they're going to name Lance. During his peak and even now, I think most people around the world would name Lance off the top of their head as the first Cyclist they can think of.

Even during the height of his success, I don't think the unanimous baseball player named when you ask the question, name a baseball player, would be Barry Bonds.

I know that's not exactly a great argument, but I'm just saying Lance transcended his sport and was known to be the best by every even casual cycling fan around the world. Bonds is not even in the same universe.

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I don't know that there has ever been a baseball player to win seven MVPs in a stretch like that... or winning seven MVPs at all, has there?

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Yes, his name is Barry Bonds

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Yes, Lance is easily the best rider of all time… Seven TDF titles... next most is five.

If he's not the best, you tell me who is.

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As I said, that person may be Eddy Merckx. He's certainly been called the greatest of all time by a number of reputable people. 11 grand tour victories, including 5 at the Tour, 34 stages at the Tour, 30 more in Italy and Spain.

If baseball had an objective system of determining its MVP as cycling has of determining the winner of a race, tell me who would have won the MVP from 1990-1996.

If Bonds wasn't the best player of the early 1990s, and the best player of his entire era, then tell me who was. If all baseball players applied their trade in a single, identical, concurrent game inside the same ballpark and that game was watched by every baseball fan, would most of the world have thought of Barry Bonds first when asked to name a baseball player?

Spice, you are prob correct. For some reason, the denial of not ever failing a drug test resonates much more than his denial of taking PED's.

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Yes, his name is Barry Bonds

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7 in 18 yrs is impressive but It's not 7 in a row