I think the main problem is that movies are subjective by nature. I have as much right to say they're good movies as you have to say they're bad.

Obviously you may see weaknesses in the writing that others don't see. But other people might see weaknesses in something you consider a great movie as well.

It's a joke, genius. If I'm being honest I'd tell you the SW prequels are miles and miles and miles better than Crystal Skull. Also, as none of the Indiana Jones movies require viewing of the others, I don't think it can be compared as crucial to the Indy series as the prequels are to SW.

I know it was a joke. Doesn't change the fact that it goes against what you were saying.

A really bad movie was made years and years after it's predecessors, which happened to be some of the most beloved movies of all time. You just said you can't choose to ignore it because it's part of the story.

quote:

---

Again, no one is telling you it's an embarrassment to enjoy something...

---

Perhaps not, but Sex Panther's response to my first post seemed to be saying I can't think they are good (or like them) just b/c they are Star Wars. In fact, I can.

Star Wars prequels aren't crucial to the series either. People got along just fine for 20 years without knowing that Anakin was a really annoying kid who had friends that hung out with a retarded Jamaican fish-rabbit.

[This message has been edited by Sex Panther (edited 2/10/2014 9:38p).]

quote:

---

Perhaps not, but Sex Panther's response to my first post seemed to be saying I can't think they are good (or like them) just b/c they are Star Wars. In fact, I can.

---

That's not at all what I'm saying. I stated after that you can like whatever you please. We all have different tastes.

I didn't get the reasoning that just because they have the words Star Wars Episode in their title, that they are automatically "awesome"

Fair point.

edit. this was to your post 2 above this one

[This message has been edited by redline248 (edited 2/10/2014 9:37p).]

quote:

---

I think the main problem is that movies are subjective by nature. I have as much right to say they're good movies as you have to say they're bad.

---

This is true. But, as an example, one thing I think we can all agree on is that 95% of all movies need a lead character. Sure, there are plenty of examples otherwise, but for something like Star Wars, a lead protagonist is essential. Yet The Phantom Menace doesn't have one, and suffers horribly for it. There are basic, objective, verifiable truths found in storytelling that stories such as Star Wars should adhere to. And The Phantom Menace ignores many of those very, very basic "rules." Rules that are there for a reason. Really, just give that video a shot, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

quote:

---

I didn't get the reasoning that just because they have the words Star Wars Episode in their title, that they are automatically "awesome"

---

Well I suppose it depends on how we are defining awesome. I'm not defining awesome as "critically acclaimed masterpiece." More along the lines of "F_ck yeah, another Star Wars movie!!!!"

TCTTS invoking the best part of the Red Letter Media review, the protagonist argument

I've seen it.

quote:

---

Well I suppose it depends on how we are defining awesome. I'm not defining awesome as "critically acclaimed masterpiece." More along the lines of "F_ck yeah, another Star Wars movie!!!!"

---

Ha, fair enough. And I assure you, I will be there opening night when the new one comes out, geeking out.

quote:

---

This is true. But, as an example, one thing I think we can all agree on is that 95% of all movies need a lead character. Sure, there are plenty of examples otherwise, but for something like Star Wars, a lead protagonist is essential. Yet The Phantom Menace doesn't have one, and suffers horribly for it. There are basic, objective, verifiable truths found in storytelling that stories such as Star Wars should adhere to. And The Phantom Menace ignores many of those very, very basic "rules." Rules that are there for a reason. Really, just give that video a shot, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

---

I'll take this a step farther. One of the things that made the original trilogy so wonderful was that they not only conformed to the rules but they pretty much made them law. Archetypes were absolutely huge and the characters and motifs were obvious.

Vader=evil=black with no emotions.
Storm troopers=badguys=no face to empathize with.
Leia=Heroine=Princess in distress
Tattoine=desert world=no prospects for a real future pushing Luke to go and grow up
Vader had a red light saber, goodguys were green/blue

These things were obvious and the stories were better for it because they were nearly comical in how perfect most fit the part. In fact, I think that's one of the reason the Han shot first argument is so big because having the good guy shoot first is one of the few things really going against the archetypes etc. Prequel trilogy tried to make things too vague. Granted, I think a lot of it had to do with Lucas growing as director and trying to do too much with it, but if he wanted to do that, he should have developed a new IP and started from there. Too much fluff is what killed the prequels and not enough real meat.

Darth maul=evil=black/red w/ spikes no emotions.
Droids=badguys=no face to sympathize with.
Queen Amidala=Heroine=queen in distress
Tattoine=desert world=no prospects for a real future pushing salve boy vader to go and grow up
Maul had a red light saber, good guys were green/blue

The prequels sucked, and I really really really wanted to like them.

Very little in The Phantom Menace made any sense. Good movies usually have good stories and TPM was lacking a good story. At the end of the day, can you easily summarize the PLOT of that movie? Not tell me things that happened, but the actual plot.

Compare the opening scroll of Star Wars to Episode 1. Star Wars:

quote:

---

It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire's ultimate weapon, the Death Star, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet.

Pursued by the Empire's sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy...

---

So in the first 90 seconds or so of the movie, we know the basics of the plot. Pretty much everything that happens in the movie from that point on is happening to resolve this very simple problem. Rebels have the plans to the Empire's secret weapon and are trying to use it to their advantage. Empire needs to get the plans away from the Rebels.

Now, The Phantom Menace:

quote:

---

Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic. The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.

Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.

While the congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events, the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights, the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the conflict....

---

Trade Federation is pissed about space taxes and has stopped all shipping to Naboo. Congress is debating about what to do. Jedis are sent to settle the conflict.

This is the plot of the movie for about ten minutes. The bulk of the movie has very little to do with resolving the trade crisis and we never really have any idea of what the crisis is about or why we should care.

I was 11 at the time and remember very little of my first viewing, but I remember the podrace and the lightsaber battle blowing me away. Probably similar to what the Death Star run was like for kids in the 70's.

Yes, the prequels aren't as black and white, archetypal as the original trilogy, but that doesn't necessarily make them any worse, or better. Is Game of Thrones worse than LOTR because of the same thing? There's no accounting for taste.

[This message has been edited by Brian Earl Spilner (edited 2/11/2014 11:59a).]

bagger

It is not uncommon for what appears to be the main issue at the beginning is not the real issue at all in literature or movies. It was a set up that brought the Jedis there in the first place and helped them realize that the Sith are behind what appeared to be simple capitalism. There is something to be said about revealing too much at the beginning.

Honestly that doesn't bug me at all.

Yeah, the whole trade dispute didn't bother me too much because they made it clear later in the movie that it was all a setup by the Emperor to justify building his clone army with which he would take over the galaxy.

Having said that I thought TPM was pretty lame as well. II and III were better but still saddled with crap writing and plot.

Enough prequel debate. It's been going on for over a decade and it's obvious no one's ever going convince anyone of anything.

Instead, we should be focusing on Star Wars 80's High School. Which would be AMAZING...

http://www.behance.net/gallery/STAR-WARS-80s-High-School/9671051

I laughed.

http://www.thestudioexec.com/2014/02/star-wars-vii-catering-firm-confirmed.html?m=1

Your random cool Star Wars story of the day, since we're discussing the prequels.

I've had the chance to get to know a number of folks in the VFX industry, one being a relatively high up ILM animator who's got a bunch of fantastic Lucas/prequel stories (he also does a great George impersonation as he tells them). He made us promise not to share most of them, but one cool one isn't particularly incriminating.

When the animators first got the Jar Jar character during preproduction of Episode I they know nothing about him. It's pretty standard for that department to get a rig to do "rig wrecking" to test the controls on the character, do some tests to see how he might walk, act, etc., well in advance of the actual production.

They at first thought he could be a pretty awesome character, and according to rumor there's an amazing test shot somewhere in the ILM archives with Jar Jar raising a weapon over his head and shouting "I am Spartacus!" with dialogue borrowed from Kirk Douglas from the original film.

After getting really excited about the potential for him, they soon received the actual dialogue for the character and a collective "what the hell?" came from the animation department. And the rest is history.

Heh, cool story. I can imagine the disappointment, but really, what do you expect from a character named Jar Jar?

Any other stories? Come on, we won't tell anyone.

I get that JarJar and baby Annie are very annoying, but I don't feel that the story of TPM is that bad. It's kinda cool seeing how Palpatine is manipulating everything. And Darth Maul, obviously, is awesome.

It surprises me that most people rate it below Episode II. That movie is awful.

quote:

---

I feel like I just clicked into a conversation between Dante and Randal.

---

**** Lord of the Rings. There is only one true trilogy.

Those drawings are cool TC

quote:

---

Those drawings are cool TC

---

Yeah those are pretty awesome.

Episode II has it strong points. Personally I think the love theme is Williams' best work in the prequel trilogy, plus it was cool finally seeing the first big Clone Wars battle. And let's be honest, seeing Yoda pull out that lightsaber made everyone lose their ****.

Shark what did you do to get banned?

quote:

---

It surprises me that most people rate it below Episode II. That movie is awful.

---

I will say that if I had to choose, I'd definitely put Episode I above Episode II, and maybe even Episode III. Episode II was, hands down, the worst. The Anakin/Padme love story in that movie is easily the most cringe-inducing thing in all six movies.

As bad as it is, I admit, even I sometimes can't help but be pulled in by the nostalgia factor of Episode I. Which is a weird thing to say. Darth Maul is pretty great, and the stuff on Tattoine has its moments. Hayden Christensen alone brings down both II AND III for me. I can't stand him as Anakin, so much so that Episode I probably "wins" for me by default, simply because he's not in it.

quote:

---

As bad as it is, I admit, even I sometimes can't help but be pulled in by the nostalgia factor of Episode I.

---

It's funny how this is becoming more and more true for people under 30. That movie is 15 years old now.

I went to see the 3D re-release in CS in a packed theater. People brought lightsabers and applauded at the opening credits. They cheered when the doors open up to Darth Maul and he ignites his lightsaber.

It's still Star Wars, and people will be nostalgic about it just like people are for the OT. I think in another 10 or 20 years, it'll all just be Star Wars, if that makes any sense.

SP, staff hated shark.

To me, the prequels were like that smokin hot girlfriend you had that was crazy and/or a complete b****. One moment you're asking yourself why are you putting up with her bullsh**, then the next, you watch her bend over to pick something up and you know exactly why.

On one hand you get characters like Padme, young Anakin, teen Anakin, Jar Jar, etc. On the other hand you got characters like Dooku, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, and Qui-Gon.

In this corner, a smirking adolescent Boba Fett that laughs (heh heh heh) like a the villain in a black and white film roping the damsel to the train tracks. In that corner, the CGI Yoda that lops off heads and arms and throws his lightsaber into the chest of a clone then retrieves like a boss.

The Gungan/Droid battle was actually cheesier than the Ewok/Stormtrooper battle. That's really saying something. Yet the Clones massacring the Jedi was pretty awesome.

In the end, the prequels were just not that good, nor was your relationship with the smokin hot crazy b****. But you did get to see/do some pretty cool stuff en route to that conclusion.

[This message has been edited by Urban Ag (edited 2/11/2014 1:17p).]